“George Orwell once said that if you want an image by which to picture the future, imagine a human boot stepping on a face forever! That’s what a hard realism would, arguably, suggest.” Ron Rolheiser
The imagery suggested in the phrase “turtle head stomping” is provocative. The innocent turtle who rests in the security of it’s hard protective shell decides one day to stick it’s neck out and have a look at it’s world. Only to feel the heel of a boot stomping on it’s head.
A reason rarely spoke of but, I feel it is the base reason, overpopulation. Individuality becomes faceless when there are too many individuals.
I can’t wait till Turtle comes back here and see this title.
Kriswest … isn’t 2 people enough to elicit such behaviour?
Reminds me of the Cain and Abel myth. For me, a myth with profound truth lurking in the shadows.
Ahh but, Those two represent not humans but, cultures and close quarters. To kill another, they must be an object not equal. Given space and change the other would not become an object. Constant interaction or intrusion into living makes the mind see object not life especially if there is a difference in personality. Personality includes beliefs, ability, attitude. Cain and Abel is a very astute warning of human behaviorisms.
A WOW! post Kriswest … I enthusiastically agree … what insight!
We often hear or read something to the effect … it is in man’s nature to covet his neighbour’s goods.
If I understand your intentions correctly … you just expanded the scope of the word “goods” to include personality, beliefs, abilities, attitudes and so on.
I forgot to mention the “human behaviorisms” illustrated in the Cain and Abel myth haven’t changed much … have they?
Yet 
Thankyou, Yes those are our true possessions that we can give, sell, hoard. The jealousy over sacrificial gifts was a symbol for affect. Education was oral, most could not read. Dramatic metaphors were used to help keep lessons remembered. All the books in the Jewish/Christian texts were not written for the average person to read. They were written for those that were higher educated and were driven to teach. As copies were not abundant there had to be a way to keep intent remembered. Drama is a fine tool. I have a hard time fully explaining what I understand so forgive me.
I do see that the average person was not to ever read the texts. When written language became part of education more read those texts and more misunderstandings occurred. Sects occurred , changing the actual first written words happened. Religion went amok. There is far more to this, this is but one part.
If one looks at the stories as a way to give a lesson of behavior and not belief in a god, the perspective changes. Understanding where the average person was education wise and how society was is also needed.
For me … a helpful expansion on the thoughts you expressed in your previous post.
Kinda justifies the rather crass expression “turtle head stomping”. Since our human nature is considered fundamentally good by many people … a propensity to “turtle head stomp” … if it is part of our human nature … is OK
Sorry for the delay I have been busy and trying to think about where to expand on that post. It would be helpful if you pointed to where. I could probably ramble for a bit and never hit on what you want
I watched a movie today “Midnight in Paris” … one of the lines resonated with me …
“A few couples go out to dinner … a formal event … after dinner they can’t get out of the room … for some reason they can’t open the door. Take away the thin veneer of civilization and what do you get? … animals.”
Don’t know if there is a connection … maybe you can see one
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A couple of random interjections.
Orwell’s vision was a jackboot on a human face. He was concerned not with ecology but with politics. While also valid, the turtle image is gratuitous and even misleading in the context.
Midnight in Paris is a nicely-balanced (and exquisitely directed - much as I dislike Woody Allen in person, he makes a good movie) romantic fantasy. It wasn’t about that single nihilist line “Hell is other people”. Quark, in one of the DS9 episodes, made a similar observation
The behaviour of the humans in that very same episode proved the exact opposite: they were loyal, steadfast and self-sacrificing. And that’s often true in times of hardship. In fact, one might even note a direct correlation between material wealth - both national and personal - and bad behaviour. Not saying it’s causative, but it’s one factor.
Do we go crazy when overcrowded, overstressed and threatened? Of course. All species do.
Does the complexity of the human brain and social interaction result in some bizarre behaviours? Absolutely.
Is there such a readily-definable thing as “human nature”? No.
Welcome back Humunculus … I missed you … hope it wasn’t health issues that kept you away.
Sounds like the Biblical story of Job.
Are you intentionally leaving the door open with your qualifier “readily-definable” ?
Surely people are not so hesitant to define “nature” in general terms … mountains, valleys, seasons, flowers and so on.
People seem OK defining the “nature” of some mammals/fish/insects and so on … no?
Are we really so confused about the idea of “human nature”?
No. First, I was waiting for the nazis to stop ranting all over the place, and then i had trouble staying logged in.
Not sure Job fits here - or at least, i don’t see how.
In a way, yes. That is, one can’t keep a door closed on descriptions of nature, in whatever entity it manifests. One can’t stop describing human behaviour and debating what parts of it are innate and necessary, what parts learned or conditioned and what parts reactive. We are an intensely self-preoccupied species. Can’t resist a mirror, however warped.
Well, that’s a problem for me. If “people” were less glib with definitions, they wouldn’t have to go around so much wearing egg on their faces and having to re-learn what they thought they knew.
Terribly confused.
I watched a movie today “Midnight in Paris” … one of the lines resonated with me …
“A few couples go out to dinner … a formal event … after dinner they can’t get out of the room … for some reason they can’t open the door. Take away the thin veneer of civilization and what do you get? … animals.”
Don’t know if there is a connection … maybe you can see one
"
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Between them and the brothers? Yes
Self instinct overcomes species instinct when dramatic emotions fill the brain. Never saw the movie but, I am familiar with Allen’s tactics. One provokes another in a very selfish way, etc etc and it builds.
Being truly trapped and feeling trapped is the core here. In each story there was no real trap, it was only a dramatic emotion of feeling trapped. Yes jealousy is a percieved trap , fully felt, no way out but, to remove or destroy the trap. To use a Star Trek reference like Humun did,
A Vulcan has emotions, strong animal emotions but, they bury them deeply because emotions destroy logic.
In both stories ,logic went out the door due to poor control of emotions. You can see the lesson of self control in both. Any further connection is beyond me because I do not know more about the Allen story.
There is definable human behavior. A human infant behaves quite differently then any other infant even our closest cousins.
Terribly confused.
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I slept on my question and woke up in complete accord with your response.
I woke up with another unusual thought … not ready to share it yet though.
Kriswest … your insight is much keener than mine … I could only grasp one sentence … and even then I couldn’t grasp the potential meaning as you have.
Share more of your insight … please
LOL You have to give me more to work with. A subject is needed. I could just start spewing out like a broken pipe but, that just makes a big mess and takes quite a bit to clean up and sort out
OK … let’s continue probing the thoughts you shared in this OP … as a unified whole versus individual thoughts.
Here are the words that popped up when I was trying to figure out how to respond …
contagious
pattern buster
virus
hooked on a feeling
bait
Memes. But how do they apply to Orwell’s dystopian vision or turtles or human nature?
What is it you are trying to unify?