Sorry for the delay I have been busy and trying to think about where to expand on that post. It would be helpful if you pointed to where. I could probably ramble for a bit and never hit on what you want 
I watched a movie today “Midnight in Paris” … one of the lines resonated with me …
“A few couples go out to dinner … a formal event … after dinner they can’t get out of the room … for some reason they can’t open the door. Take away the thin veneer of civilization and what do you get? … animals.”
Don’t know if there is a connection … maybe you can see one
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A couple of random interjections.
Orwell’s vision was a jackboot on a human face. He was concerned not with ecology but with politics. While also valid, the turtle image is gratuitous and even misleading in the context.
Midnight in Paris is a nicely-balanced (and exquisitely directed - much as I dislike Woody Allen in person, he makes a good movie) romantic fantasy. It wasn’t about that single nihilist line “Hell is other people”. Quark, in one of the DS9 episodes, made a similar observation
The behaviour of the humans in that very same episode proved the exact opposite: they were loyal, steadfast and self-sacrificing. And that’s often true in times of hardship. In fact, one might even note a direct correlation between material wealth - both national and personal - and bad behaviour. Not saying it’s causative, but it’s one factor.
Do we go crazy when overcrowded, overstressed and threatened? Of course. All species do.
Does the complexity of the human brain and social interaction result in some bizarre behaviours? Absolutely.
Is there such a readily-definable thing as “human nature”? No.
Welcome back Humunculus … I missed you … hope it wasn’t health issues that kept you away.
Sounds like the Biblical story of Job.
Are you intentionally leaving the door open with your qualifier “readily-definable” ?
Surely people are not so hesitant to define “nature” in general terms … mountains, valleys, seasons, flowers and so on.
People seem OK defining the “nature” of some mammals/fish/insects and so on … no?
Are we really so confused about the idea of “human nature”?
No. First, I was waiting for the nazis to stop ranting all over the place, and then i had trouble staying logged in.
Not sure Job fits here - or at least, i don’t see how.
In a way, yes. That is, one can’t keep a door closed on descriptions of nature, in whatever entity it manifests. One can’t stop describing human behaviour and debating what parts of it are innate and necessary, what parts learned or conditioned and what parts reactive. We are an intensely self-preoccupied species. Can’t resist a mirror, however warped.
Well, that’s a problem for me. If “people” were less glib with definitions, they wouldn’t have to go around so much wearing egg on their faces and having to re-learn what they thought they knew.
Terribly confused.
I watched a movie today “Midnight in Paris” … one of the lines resonated with me …
“A few couples go out to dinner … a formal event … after dinner they can’t get out of the room … for some reason they can’t open the door. Take away the thin veneer of civilization and what do you get? … animals.”
Don’t know if there is a connection … maybe you can see one
"
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Between them and the brothers? Yes
Self instinct overcomes species instinct when dramatic emotions fill the brain. Never saw the movie but, I am familiar with Allen’s tactics. One provokes another in a very selfish way, etc etc and it builds.
Being truly trapped and feeling trapped is the core here. In each story there was no real trap, it was only a dramatic emotion of feeling trapped. Yes jealousy is a percieved trap , fully felt, no way out but, to remove or destroy the trap. To use a Star Trek reference like Humun did,
A Vulcan has emotions, strong animal emotions but, they bury them deeply because emotions destroy logic.
In both stories ,logic went out the door due to poor control of emotions. You can see the lesson of self control in both. Any further connection is beyond me because I do not know more about the Allen story.
There is definable human behavior. A human infant behaves quite differently then any other infant even our closest cousins.
Terribly confused.
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I slept on my question and woke up in complete accord with your response.
I woke up with another unusual thought … not ready to share it yet though.
Kriswest … your insight is much keener than mine … I could only grasp one sentence … and even then I couldn’t grasp the potential meaning as you have.
Share more of your insight … please
LOL You have to give me more to work with. A subject is needed. I could just start spewing out like a broken pipe but, that just makes a big mess and takes quite a bit to clean up and sort out
OK … let’s continue probing the thoughts you shared in this OP … as a unified whole versus individual thoughts.
Here are the words that popped up when I was trying to figure out how to respond …
contagious
pattern buster
virus
hooked on a feeling
bait
Memes. But how do they apply to Orwell’s dystopian vision or turtles or human nature?
What is it you are trying to unify?
The intention of my suggestion for Kriswest is centered on her thoughts … only she can discern if her thought stream has unity or an absence of unity. My opening post may have acted like a “starting pistol” to release her initial thought stream. In hindsight … my response to her initial post may have been me claiming a “false start” … suggesting a need for a new start. I think the balance of my posts were in response to her request for ‘prodding’. Sometimes a stationary turtle requires repeated prodding to start moving in any given direction.
If you are patient we may all learn something about human nature … which as you wrote … is terribly confusing.
I look forward to Kriswest’s response.
Okay. I’m current now. Sitting back.
I hope you have a good supply of snacks and drinks on the table … it appears Kriswest is taking the challenge seriously.
Dortmunder beer, olives, bread-sticks and brie; the 4400 on Netflix.
Don’t worry about me, bro!
Taking it serious? I thought we were just talking. So perhaps I should ask if you are yanking my chain? If not then:
A herd/pack/flock even schools(as in fish)have instincts when attacked by predators. There is the before, during and after. When a predator shows up the group flees ,a member gets killed they fuss and stop. As the predator eats nearby, the group calms down and get back to normal. They know instinctively that the predator won’t kill again so soon so life goes on.
Try killing a lone turtle by stomping on its head, not easy. A lone turtle will be alert and can amazingly fast, pull into its shell. A group of turtles will be more relaxed , confident. A good predator can possibly stomp on one.(possible not probable). Orwell’s boot stomping on a face shows overpopulation/ herd/pack/flock/school. Predator going after the group,not specific individual. The predator gets the weak. In an overpopulated group it is easy pickings. In a species where canibalism occurs it gets ,well interesting. Humans prey on humans, we are not the only ones though. Ever watch a horse chomp on a dead herd member? A dog eat another dog or cat eat another cat? Even cattle will. That innocent seed eating hen will tear into the carcass of her sister. Why? Instinct. In situations of overpopulation or desperation, survival instincts kick in and override normal choice.
A leader will kill a member in order to provide for the whole. A rooster will kill a weak hen so that the rest eats.
Humans have risen above instincts totally controlling their minds but, not above some control. We cannot yet see all humans as one herd as our herd. When there are so many bodies surrounding us we see faceless beings not part of us our herd.
Orwell gets to this. A leader will stomp and control to the point of killing in order to protect and promote their herd.
Ask yourself if you honestly think elected leaders that have gone around selling their leadership abilities, give a real crap about the individual or the masses. They cannot. They might try but, evolution has not caught up yet, if ever.
Herds of the same species battle over resources so do we. Our leaders (this includes all political /tribal leaders) put their best interests at heart instinctively. Too few do not. They will stomp on the turtle/face. They are being controlled by instincts that we call greed, arrogance, selfishness. They must harm others of their species to protect their herd.
Overpopulation and evolution.
Ok I have cut corners on this , I hope you can fill in blanks or get it. I have studied years and still study and learn. I am not a great communicator of what I learn. I apologize for that.
Kriswest … my gut reaction to your post … WOW! Holy Shit!
I hope not. My hope is that we are engaged in the notion of “Stream of Consciousness” . It may take a few iterations before we get the hang of it. I like Surreptitious57’s comment about stream of consciousness … “Yes it can(produce meaningful results) but only if all those participating have altruistic intent with regard to that.”
Some minds cogitate abstract ideas … reducing the results of this mind activity to coherent language … understandable by minds that have not seriously reflected on the abstract ideas under consideration is not only difficult … it’s almost impossible. For me … that’s where the notion of stream of consciousness may help.
You introduced new thoughts … mostly dealing with the physical component of humanity. Do you think your comments stretch into the (un)physical as well … the personality, ideology component?
More emerging thoughts …
Streams follow the path of least resistance … streams flow under … over … to the right of … to the left of … not through … any resistance in their path.
One thing is certain … streams continue to flow … OK … not all streams.
Reminds me of secrets … hidden knowledge … knowledge banned by the authorities of its’ day … may have flowed through the ages of humanity … trans-generational … via art and literature. For example … the grail romances … DaVinci’s Mona Lisa … Poussin’s Les Bergers D’Arcadie … Homer’s Odyssey.
The device “Stream of Consciousness” may not function here on ILP because there are too many what Phyllo labels “Pussy Whippers”.
That pretty much sums it up.
Pilgrim I do think it does. Energy is physical. Energy waves or pulses are physical. I will do more later ASAP. My job and home has been hectic and my thoughts are there, it takes from this study. Oddly life and death that has been occuring is a part of this conversation.
Edit:
What we call spirit or soul is energy that is transmitted from the brain. Animal brains are not truly that different from ours. Consider that the brain is a biological radio that transmits and receives. Consider as well that transmissions from radios remain cohesive and coherent over distances depending upon strength and energy that it can piggy back on. Some years ago there was articles about brain pulses at the time of death. People hooked to monitors at the time of dying more often then not spiked the monitors with an energy surge.
Our brains are set up in species patterns. Can a primitive brain transmission develop in a sentient brain? Possible, beliefs in reincarnation seem to think it can. Is the belief just hope? Possible but, once bio electric energy is more understood we might find it true. People reading minds may mostly be fake but, it can be done with proper focus, natural ability or training to use mostly unused portions of the brain.