What is the default? Is a being outside of time?

When one asserts another to have knowledge, what should be assumed about such person?

I periodically engage Christians in the discussion of the problem of free will. Simple logic says it is impossible for a being to have infallible knowledge at a given point in time of a yet to be made choice which is freely made by another person.

However, when I ask the question on day 1, “does God know today what A/B choice Susie will make tomorrow?”, Christians say “yes”. If asked, they will also say that Susie has the freedom to choose either A or B. They then reconcile this by stating that “God” is outside of time such that his knowledge as of day 1 is actually outside of time, meaning it doesn’t exist in our timeline.

That being said, if one asks “on day 1, does X know what A/B choice Y will make on day 2?”, without specifying whether X is inside of time or outside of time, is the default - or what should be assumed about X - that X is inside of time or outside of time?

At the moment, I feel like I am nowhere in or out of time with that convoluted question - unless it’s just my puny mind that cannot grasp what you’re saying.

You might want to re-phrase your question and/or simplify it a bit.

What about my question do you not understand?

If I said the Fashizlebops knows what you’re going to do tomorrow, would you assume that the Fashizlebops operates outside of time or would you assume the Fashizlebops doesn’t operate outside of time?

I couldn’t and wouldn’t assume anything. I have no idea what the Fashizlebops are.

I just can’t grasp the meaning the way you are expressing yourself. But it might just be me. But if you want an answer, you’ll have to reconstruct the question.

Without any additional information, would you assume a fashizlebops operated outside of time?

Maybe I can help here.

I think what you’re getting at, Mutcer, is how credible knowledge claims are. In order to be certifiably credible, someone claiming to have knowledge of X must have been there to experience X. So to claim to know what happens in the afterlife, or beyond the edge of the universe, or at some future date, one would have to somehow be outside space and time–able to “see it all” from a God’s eye view–otherwise you’re just guessing.

So if a fashizlebops claimed to know what I’m going to do tomorrow–then the question becomes: if I am to take his claim as certifiably credible, would I have to assume he has somehow transcended space and time (or at least time travelled to the future) in order to vouch that he’s seen it for himself?

You’re raising some interesting points, but it’s not precisely what I’m getting at.

Let’s try this: Pete claims that the Fashizlebops has some knowledge. You don’t know what a Fashizlebops is. Without knowing what a Fashizlebops is and to evaluate the claim of Pete, which would be more appropriate:
A) Assume the Fashizlebops functions outside of time until there is more information to indicate otherwise
B) Not assume the Fashizlebops functions outside of time until there is more information to indicate otherwise

What should you assume about something which you know nothing about?

Could the answer be … nothing?

Well, if we’re not talking about credible knowledge, I’d choose B). Why would I assume Fashizlebops function outside time?

C) Assume that I do not know.

Time is a measure of change. God being “outside of time” merely means that God doesn’t change. Time is irrelevant to God. It is much like the definition of a perfect circle. Time has nothing to do with it. And at all times, a perfect circle “knows” the entire infinite list of digits for Pi. If a person is going to calculate Pi to 1000 digits, a circle can tell you what his last digit will be. But the person still has to do the calculating.

To a degree, even a simple circle can predict a human.

Function how exactly? If you move - you’re ‘in time’.

I think what Mutcer wants is a definition of the term Foreknowledge.

He wants to know if the god knew on day 1 “dawn of time” to the last day “infinity” everything that was ever going to happen = foreknowledge

or if the definition of foreknowledge is

That the god can jump back and forward and only see the things he wants to see at any given point, not related to the time span in which we live. Which means to some believers the that of god does not operate within the confines of time as we know it. So even though god knows everything he chooses to only know some things.

I believe he (mutcer) wants to know how the god “can operate outside of time” to make the past the future and future the past. How operating outside of time = foreknowledge?

He wants to know how the god knew before Abraham Lincoln was ever born that he was going to the theater that fateful night but didn’t know he was going to be shot.
Mutcer has a hard time with self limited foreknowledge.

Mutcer forgets that he talks to people who employ circular logic. Logic that says rule 1, the god is always right . Rule 2 if my god is wrong go back to rule 1. and rule 3 If someone wants to break your circle
make up some contradiction and tell them they are to stupid to understand and you only know 2 rules.

Correct. And it would follow that one would not assume that such a thing operates outside of time.

Then it leads to another question. Why do Christians think others would assume their God operates outside of time - especially if is not indicated either way as to whether God operates inside of time or outside of time.

It would also follow that one would not assume that such a thing DOES NOT operate outside of time.

Neither ‘default’ assumption that you are suggesting is correct. ‘I don’t know how it operates’ is correct.

Mutcer,

Do you think that only christians might assume that, Mutcer? Anyone who is capable of making assumptions, who needs to have answers to their questions, even though they may realize on some level that their answer perhaps may have no basis in ultimate reality, might assume that god operates out of time. Did this god operate “out of time” at the origin of the universe[s] or at the moment that that Word was created, did it operate in time? Time is a human construct - god is not. :-" At the very least, since our universe is over 13 billion years old, I’d have to wager a bet that god has no conception whatsoever about time. But I’m an agnostic, what do I know?

The only time (oops) that I operate out of time is when I have a moment of sheer contemplation, or self-forgetfulness, when time stands still and all I am or appear to be is a swirling bunch of atoms having an experience of nothingness or maybe Somethingness.

If the assumption is “I don’t know”, then since we can only comprehend within time and can’t comprehend outside of time, wouldn’t it them follow that the default would be to assume it is within time - especially since one wouldn’t assume it is outside of time?

If you don’t know if the killer was black or white, do you just assume he was black?

Isn’t it obvious? It’s a perfectly viable explanation of how God can be so omniscient.

Why can’t “I don’t know” be the default assumption? Yes, being in time is comprehensible; being outside time is not (or at least much more difficult). But not knowing is also comprehensible. So we’re toying with three concepts: being in time, being outside time, and not knowing. Two out of three are comprehensible, so the default assumption would indeed be one of those two. I think “I don’t know” seems more intuitive or “default”.

Do you think these people who assume that something can operate outside of time have any concept of what it means to be outside of time?

Once you specify anything with respect to time when it comes to a being that is supposedly outside of time, you’re placing it within time.

How do you know this?

If God knows everything, then he would know everything there is about time.

Does time elapse when this happens?