The following advice is from a prayer book:
“Pray as if everything depended upon God, act as if everything depended on you.”
I think that this is consistent with the idea of NOMA, formulated by the biologist Stephen Gould. We exist in the material world; God exists in the spiritual world.
The context in which the idea of NOMA was formulated is summarized in my article about futile conflicts between theists and atheists:
nytimes.com/reuters/2013/02/ … ml?hp&_r=0
That last paragraph is interesting. I like the NOMA idea, but it’s important to look closely at what it means to say “We exist in the material world; God exists in the spiritual world”.
That prayer book advice is wise. I think prayer definitely can serve a healthy function. I even say that as an atheist - I don’t think you have to believe in the substantial reality of the being you pray to, in order to reap the benefits of the practice. In fact, no matter what, you necessarily pray to a construction of the imagination.
I am a polytheist and my own thoughts on prayer is that you can pray for things such as help with bad spirits, or for help in your soul and consciousness, but the gods aren’t all-powerful. They are simply the ancients. Souls which have been around very long and have grown in the spiritual realms. Some spirits can physically manifest but most either don’t want to or can’t. Also not all deities can even hear prayers. Some of them have shifted their awareness off of the physical realm and towards a different place.
Noma has to be one of the biggest bullshit ideas ever.
Religion makes claims about psychology, biology, physics and so forth all the time.
People who believe Noma makes sense are either ignorant or haven’t thought this thing trough at all.
That’s beautiful. Any evidence to support any of your claims?
Definitely. Disregard the fact that it will frustrate you 99 % of the time, that you may start feeling inadequate and unappreciated by god and so forth.
Yes, real healthy.
I don’t think you would accept my form of evidence. It doesn’t come from a lab, or from matter. Also, common authority figures don’t preach it.
Do you have any reliable evidence ? At all ? Or is it just anecdotal ?
Moved to R&S.
Why would it frustrate you if you understand how it functions - what it does and doesn’t do? If you’re studying psychology you should be interested.
Accordingly, perhaps those are improper claims of religion. I’m not sure if you understand what NOMA means, or how the concept can lead to opposing conceptions of the rightful place of either ‘realm’.
Not all religion does.
It’s possible, for example, that only bad, misguided religion makes empirical-scientific assertions, and that only bad, misguided science makes religious-moral assertions.\
Fortunately, you’ve thought this through and aren’t ignorant, so any disagreement with you must be a sign of one or the other, right?
I am interested. That’s why I replied to this thread. But being interested and agreeing with something are two different things.
It would frustrate you because he doesn’t work.
I do.
Give me an example of a religion that doesn’t. Even fucking Jainism does it.
I know that you know that I think that that is bullshit so let’s not even go there.
Doesn’t work at what? What does prayer do? What can’t it do? Exploring this question and arriving at some sharpened understanding is what it’s all about.
I’m talking of prayer as a way of asking for something. Doesn’t really matter what you believe is on the other side, god, the universe, it’s irrelevant to this discussion.
So, start from there.
Asking for something doesn’t have to be accompanied by the belief that because of your prayer, you will get it. But I know what you mean. You’re pointing to delusion about the function of prayer, and I think it’s helpful to do so. I think prayer without delusion is meditation, but I think it’s important to note that meditation can sometimes take the form of prayer. I have prayed when feeling particularly anxious, and the prayer never fails to calm me - even though I don’t believe in any entity worthy of the name “God”. But I allow myself to ‘believe’ in such an entity on some level, during the prayer. It’s not dangerous. Really.
Here’s a good thread on prayer…
If it isn’t accompanied by the belief that it will work, then it is a completely irrational act. An insane act even. Do you agree ?
In my last post I was going to ask you to not play linguistic games but decided not to and hoped for the best. I should have known better.
Meditation has nothing to do with prayer and you’re giving meditation a bad rep by equating it with something as silly as prayer.
That’s fine but you do realize that that doesn’t say anything at all about the efficacy of prayer, right ? ( and we’re taking prayer to mean asking for something).
The effect that prayer has on you can be explained by a million things, namely placebo effect.
Having said that, it’s hard to not feel calm after being still,after focusing, perhaps with your eyes closed and so forth. Your heart rate decreases and so on.
I trust you know the biology.
Sorry to break it to you but if you pray, you are probably not an atheist. You may not believe in a conventional god, say the god of the bible, but if you pray, you believe there is something capable of hearing that pray and acting upon it.
Otherwise, we’re going back to irrationality and insanity.
Allot of the people who I have talked to which showed an interest in magic or in the occult, they had experiences beyond the normal. So they looked for answers, and they felt that the magical answers made the most sense. If these people had never had paranormal experiences first-hand, they would probably remain in the conventional belief-system, as either an atheist or a christian of some sort. Even the magicians of the world start out in the banality-ideas. Even they, the most experienced and hopeful, would not have got involved with this unless their false reality was broken manually by a force beyond themselves.
I think that if you truly wanted to understand something like magic, you would talk to allot of people, and try allot of techniques, as-well-as reading allot of books. I don’t think you want to do that. It’s out there for all, but who cares?