--- The mind is a function of the brain. It appears to be a word (some may find it a funny name) to describe what happens in your brain.
O- A function of your brain is precisely how I see it. The difference is that I see the brain as determined by it's electro-chemical value, thus, what your brain does, it's functions and "actions" are likewise slaves to the necessary effects that visit such and such state of the brain at a given time and it is not the choice of one one of the "functions" to determine what, according to your view, produces it.
--- Not true. I am consciously aware of the choices I make.
O- My dear Christian are you infallible? Isn't it possible that this is an illusion? And isn't it an illusion simply because of what else you assume unquestionably and scientifically about the universe and it's forces? You already said that the mind is a product, pretty much, of the brain, so what happens in your mind, the illusion of choice included, is all determined, not a choice. It is an effect to state of your brain. That doesn't make you an automaton, because an automaton does not have a subjective, nor the ability to be wrong about his freedom as a direct consequence.
--- You're going off on a tangent. You asked if my brain is my choice - and I responded with an analogy to show how silly that question is.
O- "A bad analogy, Mutcer" is my response.
--- Seems more like it would typically be random. It also depends if you're talking about direct effect or indirect effect.
Effect: Wind & Rain
Cause: Wind & Rain
Effects: Damaged cars, coastal piers torn to shreds, power lines down, etc.
O- Nothing random about the effects of a hurricane. The debri field is determined. We may not know ALL of the variants (which is why we need controlled enviroments to conuct accurate scientific research), but if we did, while complicated, we could predict where and how extensive the damage would be. Not knowing however is not the equivalent of freedom, OR evidence of randomness. Something unexpected happens and we simply looked at what might have been left unaccounted for.
--- I'm not sure I quite understand what you're getting at.
O- That you are inconsistent. That the standard you apply to the Christian you avoid for yourself.
--- But what is clear is you haven't identified something other than my brain
O- Never in question. This is what we agree on. You are an effect of your brain.
--- ...as what you think is the cause of me being able to make free will choices.
O- Your brain is not the cause of your ability, but of the illusion that yopu have this ability. The fact be granted that the brain IS the Cause, disqualifies the possibility that the ability of self-determination, which is what freewill amounts to, exist. Your question is flawed. I cannot identify what by your assumptions does not exist. Might as well ask me to identify God for you.
--- When you say "they", are you referring to Christians or to all people?
O- Do you know what ALL people think? What ALL people feel? Let's concentrate here to you and then we may extrapolate to the human race. For right now it seems that you and the Christian are living in wish-fulfilling illusions.
--- If God is a fancy word to describe what happens in our minds, then you're coming from a Pantheistic view. Are you a Pantheist?
Your comprehension is limited, but at least you ask questions. Mutcer, what I wrote had NOTHING to do with God as a description of what happens in our minds but as an example about how our minds can be certain of what you patently say does not exist. If they can be wrong about the existence of God, can't you be wrong about the existence of freewill?
--- Once again, no surprise. I'm not asking what an automaton is or experiences. I'm asking for you to guide me to a scientific study. As you haven't, I can safely assume that there is no scientific study which shows we are simply automatons.
O- Mutcer you are asking me for a defense for something I haven't proposed. WE ARE NOT AUTOMATONS. But not being an automaton is not the same as saying that we are self-determined. I don't need studies but your own assumptions, your own standard of truth. You agree that the mind is an effect, a function, what happens in your brain. It is not the cause of itself, and can only be what your brain can produce. You resist this and insist regardless about your ability to choose, which I tell you is an illusion and not an experience of what is actually happening in your brain. Your choices are a consequence of your brain, therefore determined by your brain even under the illusion of self-determination.