born again, or magical thinking

[obe]

Can anyone help me describe what many people have written about, the concept of "being born again". Jesus,Khrishnamurti,Sri Arobindo all said directly that we have to "die" now-to have this happen. What did they mean by this? It's certain that they meant it figuratively, that perhaps our ego has to in a sense change.this is a problem because our ego is an important part of our personality, or, our self. Some people talk of the conventional versus the transcendental self. Finally there is an implication that this type of "living death"(which seems like a psychological process), carries over to the spiritual realm, thereby somehow eliminating the difference of "death" between the two aspects. In christianity, the concept of the trinity . The mystery of the ritual of the mass implies the magic necessary to overcome the believer's reliance to overcome these two very different deaths , vis , the spiritual, and the physical. If so, how does the concept of early Medieval magic relate to the kind of magical thinking, psychologists often associate with irrational thinking characterized by people suffering from mental illness? Another correlation can be made with medieval magic? Or is that type of magic form the bases of a Jungian archetype that becomes the new witchunt? Where does fantasy end and reality begin? Or are they still an anomalie?

[Selah7+]

Can anyone help me describe what many people have written about, the concept of "being born again". Jesus,Khrishnamurti,Sri Arobindo all said directly that we have to "die" now-to have this happen. What did they mean by this? It's certain that they meant it figuratively, that perhaps our ego has to in a sense change.this is a problem because our ego is an important part of our personality, or, our self. Some people talk of the conventional versus the transcendental self. Finally there is an implication that this type of "living death"(which seems like a psychological process), carries over to the spiritual realm, thereby somehow eliminating the difference of "death" between the two aspects. In christianity, the concept of the trinity . The mystery of the ritual of the mass implies the magic necessary to overcome the believer's reliance to overcome these two very different deaths , vis , the spiritual, and the physical. If so, how does the concept of early Medieval magic relate to the kind of magical thinking, psychologists often associate with irrational thinking characterized by people suffering from mental illness? Another correlation can be made with medieval magic? Or is that type of magic form the bases of a Jungian archetype that becomes the new witchunt? Where does fantasy end and reality begin? Or are they still an anomalie?

Obe, you have been out here alone for so long. I was hoping someone would come to help you out, but so then, here I am. Being born-again is not fantasy nor is it magical. Simply put: Man is a sinner and eternally separated from God. Jesus Christ came to save sinners and reconcile them to God the Father. When men are see that they are sinners in need of a savior, they would ask forgiveness for their sins, trust Jesus by faith, and receive the promise of salvation. The 'old man' [old sin nature] is put to death and the 'new man' [new spirit-filled nature] comes alive to eternal salvation. God the Father now sees us as acceptable to enter into His Kingdom because of the work of the Son, Jesus. The new birth [born-again] has now taken place.

[obe]

Selah7+. Yes I agree with your message. And thanks for your help. It is not for myself that I wrote the "magical" process of religion. Brothers, ministers of the Faith and Priests will all agree that the sacrament of the Transsubstantiation of thr Mass is a magical process. We have come to misinterpret the word "magic" in light of the lowest common denominator. Some of jesus' own acts were magical. An example of which, is turning water into wine, of creating an abundance of fishes, of walking on water, raising of lazarus, the healing of the blind and the possessed, and his very own ascension. This is what I meant as a very clear form of magic. Magical thinking, as in the mentally afflicted, is normal, if they believe in Christ's miracles. I do, and I am not at all confused between the various views of magic.

[Selah7+]

Selah7+. Yes I agree with your message. And thanks for your help. It is not for myself that I wrote the "magical" process of religion. Brothers, ministers of the Faith and Priests will all agree that the sacrament of the Transsubstantiation of thr Mass is a magical process. We have come to misinterpret the word "magic" in light of the lowest common denominator. Some of jesus' own acts were magical. An example of which, is turning water into wine, of creating an abundance of fishes, of walking on water, raising of lazarus, the healing of the blind and the possessed, and his very own ascension. This is what I meant as a very clear form of magic. Magical thinking, as in the mentally afflicted, is normal, if they believe in Christ's miracles. I do, and I am not at all confused between the various views of magic.

I see. Best to use the word, Miracle instead of Magical. I do understand the concept of the Roman Catholic doctrine of 'Transubstantiation'. However, it is quite a stretch of the example that Jesus used in the participating in the elements at the Last Supper together with the disciples. The 'wafer' or bread, was never meant to be the literal body of Jesus and the wine to be the literal blood of Jesus. Jesus is the Bread of Life, because it is only through him and the work on the cross that we can have eternal life. Our physical food nourishes our physical body, but the food Jesus gives nourishes the soul to life. The meal was a representation of the Life-Giver who will not eat nor drink again until that day the saints [believers / christians] are together again with Him in Heaven. The Bible calls it, "The Marriage Supper of the Lamb." He is the bridegroom, the church is the bride. He is the perfect sacrifice for our sins [Lamb of God]. Lambs were sacrificed in the old testament times to show the coming of the Messiah and that He would be the One to provide the washing away of the sins of men. The blood of lambs, or any animal, never atoned for sins, it was given under the Law, but it was always as a picture of the coming Messiah. Only through faith in Jesus Christ can men obtain salvation.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

The 'old man' [old sin nature] is put to death and the 'new man' [new spirit-filled nature] comes alive to eternal salvation.

This is true only in the abstract. I've been around Christians all my life and never once have I see that the "old man" is put to death. Let me tell you the truth about this idealistic conception of the old man/new man paradigm : the old man never dies. It is just an ideal, not reality at all. Those born again sin as much as those that aren't born again. If anything, they just hide it better.

[Selah7+]

The 'old man' [old sin nature] is put to death and the 'new man' [new spirit-filled nature] comes alive to eternal salvation.

This is true only in the abstract. I've been around Christians all my life and never once have I see that the "old man" is put to death. Let me tell you the truth about this idealistic conception of the old man/new man paradigm : the old man never dies. It is just an ideal, not reality at all. Those born again sin as much as those that aren't born again.

Look, V, you let me tell you the truth...I don't care who you are looking at. People are sinners and they will disappoint you and betray you. They are just as imperfect as you are. Stop looking at people and put your eyes on the good Lord. He is the One you need to put your trust in. The old man must be crucified [the flesh]. That refers to our sin nature. And yes, we will deal with that until the Lord takes us home. No man can possibly be perfect in this life. That's why we need Christ! But at least Christians have forgiveness and an Advocate, to stand in defense for them against the accusations of the devil [humm...] Don't be deceived, the enemy is very powerful and knows what buttons to push. Sometimes we get the victory and sometimes we fail, but, "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." You can have that too, but instead you butt your head against the wall. So then, is it the sins of others that is keeping you from trusting in Christ, or do you think you are perfect and have no need of a Savior?

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

The 'old man' [old sin nature] is put to death and the 'new man' [new spirit-filled nature] comes alive to eternal salvation.

This is true only in the abstract. I've been around Christians all my life and never once have I see that the "old man" is put to death. Let me tell you the truth about this idealistic conception of the old man/new man paradigm : the old man never dies. It is just an ideal, not reality at all. Those born again sin as much as those that aren't born again.

Look, V, you let me tell you the truth...I don't care who you are looking at. People are sinners and they will disappoint you and betray you. They are just as imperfect as you are. Stop looking at people and put your eyes on the good Lord. He is the One you need to put your trust in. The old man must be crucified [the flesh]. That refers to our sin nature. And yes, we will deal with that until the Lord takes us home. No man can possibly be perfect in this life. That's why we need Christ! But at least Christians have forgiveness and an Advocate, to stand in defense for them against the accusations of the devil [humm...] Don't be deceived, the enemy is very powerful and knows what buttons to push. Sometimes we get the victory and sometimes we fail, but, "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." You can have that too, but instead you butt your head against the wall. So then, is it the sins of others that is keeping you from trusting in Christ, or do you think you are perfect and have no need of a Savior?

Sis, you obviously are living in the abstract, waiting for that pie in the sky.

[Selah7+]

I do love pie.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

I do love pie.

So do I. I'll take mine in the here and now ....

[felix dakat]

Can anyone help me describe what many people have written about, the concept of "being born again". Jesus,Khrishnamurti,Sri Arobindo all said directly that we have to "die" now-to have this happen. What did they mean by this? It's certain that they meant it figuratively, that perhaps our ego has to in a sense change.this is a problem because our ego is an important part of our personality, or, our self. Some people talk of the conventional versus the transcendental self. Finally there is an implication that this type of "living death"(which seems like a psychological process), carries over to the spiritual realm, thereby somehow eliminating the difference of "death" between the two aspects. In christianity, the concept of the trinity . The mystery of the ritual of the mass implies the magic necessary to overcome the believer's reliance to overcome these two very different deaths , vis , the spiritual, and the physical. If so, how does the concept of early Medieval magic relate to the kind of magical thinking, psychologists often associate with irrational thinking characterized by people suffering from mental illness? Another correlation can be made with medieval magic? Or is that type of magic form the bases of a Jungian archetype that becomes the new witchunt? Where does fantasy end and reality begin? Or are they still an anomalie?

Are you aware that many Christians including Evangelical Christians who claim the born again experience, also believe that the Eucharist which they often call Holy Communion or the lord's Supper, is symbolic and does not involve physical transubstantiation?

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

Can anyone help me describe what many people have written about, the concept of "being born again". Jesus,Khrishnamurti,Sri Arobindo all said directly that we have to "die" now-to have this happen. What did they mean by this? It's certain that they meant it figuratively, that perhaps our ego has to in a sense change.this is a problem because our ego is an important part of our personality, or, our self. Some people talk of the conventional versus the transcendental self. Finally there is an implication that this type of "living death"(which seems like a psychological process), carries over to the spiritual realm, thereby somehow eliminating the difference of "death" between the two aspects. In christianity, the concept of the trinity . The mystery of the ritual of the mass implies the magic necessary to overcome the believer's reliance to overcome these two very different deaths , vis , the spiritual, and the physical. If so, how does the concept of early Medieval magic relate to the kind of magical thinking, psychologists often associate with irrational thinking characterized by people suffering from mental illness? Another correlation can be made with medieval magic? Or is that type of magic form the bases of a Jungian archetype that becomes the new witchunt? Where does fantasy end and reality begin? Or are they still an anomalie?

Are you aware that many Christians including Evangelical Christians who claim the born again experience, also believe that the Eucharist which they often call Holy Communion or the lord's Supper, is symbolic and does not involve physical transubstantiation?

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

[Selah7+]

I do love pie.

So do I. I'll take mine in the here and now ....

Well then, enjoy it because that is all you will get.

[Selah7+]

Yes, V, you also do not understand the spiritual teaching of those statements. Many others did not understand either and thought Jesus was teach cannibalism. That is disgusting, but that was not the teaching. Those who thought that walked away and lived their lives on their own without God, then... and without God in eternity. Jesus is the "Bread of Life", it is only by studying [consuming within your hearts and minds] the nourishment of the Word which gives the Light of the knowledge, wisdom and goodness of God, which will bring you to repentance and salvation of your soul. Those who reject Him will be rejected, those who trust Him will be rewarded. "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." John 1:4 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me." Revelation 3:20 "He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear..." Revelation 2:17 I pray for you V. You know enough that you are without excuse and the judgment 'draweth nigh'. You must turn to God for help. Ask Him to show you the truth and to give you the faith you need to truly believe, and He will. As I told you, don't look at sinful men to determine what you will believe or not. Look to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of your Faith.

Obe, these are the things that men need to know...to turn from their pride, disobedience and sin and turn to God and His Son, Jesus for the only means of Truth, Reality and Salvation. This is the beginning of being 'born-again', unto a new life in Christ. When you do that, your eyes will be opened and the understanding that can only come from God will be given resulting in great joy! I pray for you and all those I communicate with here. I am compelled by God to be here for a time to bring this message to some who may not know or understand. It is not my doing or my words, but God's.

[Selah7+]

Can anyone help me describe what many people have written about, the concept of "being born again". Jesus,Khrishnamurti,Sri Arobindo all said directly that we have to "die" now-to have this happen. What did they mean by this? It's certain that they meant it figuratively, that perhaps our ego has to in a sense change.this is a problem because our ego is an important part of our personality, or, our self. Some people talk of the conventional versus the transcendental self. Finally there is an implication that this type of "living death"(which seems like a psychological process), carries over to the spiritual realm, thereby somehow eliminating the difference of "death" between the two aspects. In christianity, the concept of the trinity . The mystery of the ritual of the mass implies the magic necessary to overcome the believer's reliance to overcome these two very different deaths , vis , the spiritual, and the physical. If so, how does the concept of early Medieval magic relate to the kind of magical thinking, psychologists often associate with irrational thinking characterized by people suffering from mental illness? Another correlation can be made with medieval magic? Or is that type of magic form the bases of a Jungian archetype that becomes the new witchunt? Where does fantasy end and reality begin? Or are they still an anomalie?

Are you aware that many Christians including Evangelical Christians who claim the born again experience, also believe that the Eucharist which they often call Holy Communion or the lord's Supper, is symbolic and does not involve physical transubstantiation?

Felix, transubstantiation is a doctrinal teaching of the church of Rome. Is it amazing to you all out there that a man [priest] can change a wafer of flour and a cup of juice into the literal body and blood of Jesus? And if so, why would they want to do such a disgusting thing? It is a perversion of the teaching, implemented by the "Great Deceiver'.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

Yes, V, you also do not understand the spiritual teaching of those statements. Many others did not understand either and thought Jesus was teach cannibalism. That is disgusting, but that was not the teaching. Those who thought that walked away and lived their lives on their own without God, then... and without God in eternity. Jesus is the "Bread of Life", it is only by studying [consuming within your hearts and minds] the nourishment of the Word which gives the Light of the knowledge, wisdom and goodness of God, which will bring you to repentance and salvation of your soul. Those who reject Him will be rejected, those who trust Him will be rewarded. "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." John 1:4 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me." Revelation 3:20 "He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear..." Revelation 2:17 I pray for you V. You know enough that you are without excuse and the judgment 'draweth nigh'. You must turn to God for help. Ask Him to show you the truth and to give you the faith you need to truly believe, and He will. As I told you, don't look at sinful men to determine what you will believe or not. Look to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of your Faith.

S, I'm glad to give you the opportunity to preach your message, but how do you get your "spiritual" interpretation out of these verses? :

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Obviously you're just making things up. You may as well preach transubstantiation.

[James S Saint]

how do you get your "spiritual" interpretation out of these verses? :

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

ALL scriptures are about SPIRIT. All people mentioned are spoken of as thought they were nothing but their spirit/behavior. Behavior is all that mattered. They were spiritual people, not materialists.

Blood == issues/concerns of the heart (passions)
Meat == "Flesh" == mature wisdoms, as opposed to "milk" for the immature.

The message was simply "those who take into themselves ('consume') my wisdom and passion are part with me and shall [spiritually] live eternally".

Now you can go back to being as pedantic as your lusts dictate.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

how do you get your "spiritual" interpretation out of these verses? :

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

ALL scriptures are about SPIRIT. All people mentioned are spoken of as thought they were nothing but their spirit/behavior. Behavior is all that mattered. They were spiritual people, not materialists.

Blood == issues/concerns of the heart (passions)
Meat == "Flesh" == mature wisdoms, as opposed to "milk" for the immature.

The message was simply "those who take into themselves ('consume') my wisdom and passion are part with me and shall [spiritually] live eternally".

Now you can go back to being as pedantic as your lusts dictate.

And now St. James is an embellisher ... like Selah ... two peas in a pod ...

[James S Saint]

There are those who have understanding and those who don't.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

There are those who have understanding and those who don't.

And those that make it up as it pleases them ...

[phyllo]

Interpret literally -> 'That's ridiculous. That can't happen.'

Interpret symbolically -> 'They're just making it up as it pleases them.'

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

Interpret literally -> 'That's ridiculous. That can't happen.'

Interpret symbolically -> 'They're just making it up as it pleases them.'

I came out of a Christian cult that does this in spades.
http://www.ministrybooks.org/watchman-nee-witness-lee-book-tocs.cfm

I'll be damned if I'm gonna fall for amateurs ...

[phyllo]

Words are able to describe everything. At some point, you have to let go of the words and just experience.

[James S Saint]

Interpret literally -> 'That's ridiculous. That can't happen.'

Interpret symbolically -> 'They're just making it up as it pleases them.'

I came out of a Christian cult that does this in spades.
http://www.ministrybooks.org/watchman-nee-witness-lee-book-tocs.cfm

I'll be damned if I'm gonna fall for amateurs ...

So you are saying that we should employ professional devices to convince you?
Let me give you a clue. If I did that, you would never know it was me.. and would be pretty certain that it wasn't.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone is trying to convince you of something with any grand passion or concern. My position is merely one of separating the innocent from the guilty. What you do afterward is up to you.... and "them".

See if maybe you can glean a little of the situation from this post concerning evolution and purpose [of Life];

This question of as you say, "worshiping the species" only occurs if you actually worship
the species.

One is "worshiping" when they promote something to the highest priority.

This abyss of having no purpose due to the only function of humans
is to procreate has dogged humans for about 150 years or the same amount of time
that existentialism has been around and there is a reason for that. the creation of meaning
and purpose has been the problem for our modern times. Life is meaningless and purposeless that much has been clear and yet ignored by the multitude.
.
.
.
I too struggle with this idea of creating a philosophy that accepts our current position of
our meaning and purpose is in procreating. Much brighter minds then mine have struggle with this
problem.

Let me see if I can convey the situation to you and perhaps adjust the mental blindness of which you speak.

When it becomes deeply ingrained into the mind that a specific thing has a specific quality and the mind seeks that thing, it inherently seeks that quality. Not finding that quality, it determines that the something doesn't really exist. Thinking that it doesn't "really" exist, it then feels free to invent something close and use that as the only form of the something that it originally sought.

When seeking the famed "Purpose of Life", people invariably seek the awesome. Of course the purpose of life must be awesome. Everyone knows that. One knows when they have found something awesome because it over shadows all else. It fills their otherwise noisy meaningless life with inspiration and momentum to pursue. But there is a cause of their state of meaningless quazi-death, a cause that itself has nothing to do with the purpose of life, but rather distractive notions that are not suited to that purpose of life.

People are inspired into distraction by the awesome. Very many things can be very awesome, none of which have anything to do with that purpose of living. So what happens when they seek the awesome that will quail the noise of random distractions and give direction to their mind and heart? They seek the greater awesome, the greater awesomeness than all of the others. But what if the purpose of life just isn't that awesome?

By seeking an immense awesomeness that isn't there, thinking it to be the sign of that purpose of life, they conclude that such a purpose must not exist. Seeing only things that are not all that awesome from their perspective, they cannot discern one from another. They all seem equally unimpressive.

This is in fact the story of the "Original Sin", that inherited error that once begun, infects endless generations with a blindness due to them expecting and seeking awesomeness and the power to persuade others through distractions of the awesome; lustful presumptuous blame-shifting, credit grabbing, myth inventing, mystery promoting, without which no power can be gained because no one can discern or adhere to anything less.

How would you find the purpose of life if you knew that it was not greatly impressive? How would you distinguish it from anything else? How would you verify that your final choice was accurate/"scientifically falsifiable"?

When something gets exaggerated so as to impress more people, that something gets lost. Science promoters today go to extreme lengths to mystify Science and promote its awesomeness. They use every trick they can come up with so as to make it seem so much more a brighter light than anything else - all for the good cause, of course. They make Science into a religion of faith and awesomeness. But no matter how awesome something is, it eventually becomes the common and mundane. What then? Look for Science on the internet today and you find almost nothing but exaggerations and mystical proposals, almost no actual science at all. Real Science, despite its great usefulness, is pretty damn boring.

So in a future, I would expect a great many people to be saying, "Science is just a myth. They invented it just to usurp power from the people." And they would have more than enough evidence to back their case.

My first complaint of Christianity was simply that they fell into the trap of using mysticism as a promotion tool. It wouldn't matter how great the original idea was. Once you start that journey into mystifying and making something lustfully awesome, the truth of it gets lost. And then what do you have but people looking for a truth by the quality of it being awesome beyond the reality of it. They then declare that it must not actually exist. They cannot discern it from so many other things that seem just as impressive to them.

You can't discern the truth of something by how impressive it is. So how do you discern it? And if you can't answer that, and I'm certain that you can't, can you legitimately claim that it doesn't exist? Can you merely accept something that seems sort of close and proclaim to know anything at all?

You and "they" have been lost on that issue of the purpose of life merely due to being blinded by so many efforts to promote the awesomeness of everything else under the Sun. The lust of any one thing, blinds the mind to discernment of everything else. Thus people have been told time and time and time again, to remove the lusts in their lives so as to be able to discern truth. One cannot discern truth if they are lustfully wanting, Science entirely agrees. It is an issue of SNR - "Signal to Noise Ratio".

What if the real purpose of life is equally as dull and mundane as merely "propagating the species" and yet something entirely different? And propagating is merely an aberrant consequence of such endeavor? What if the purpose of life is no more than simple water that could become no more than a delightful wine at best? When would that be sufficient for the addicted to power, drugs, money, magic, pride, ego, entertainment, or sex?

Logic leads one to the discernment, not emotional appeal or popular consent (not even of the Cardinals of Science).

The point being that as long as people are exaggerating every damn thing around you, even if you were to realize it, you still couldn't discern the truth amongst the noise. And never be able to discern the exaggeration, glorification, or flat out deceit from the actual truth.

By asking the question, you do 2 things;
A) Ask to be convinced (hopefully honestly)
B) Spawn doubt in others who might be reading (the intent of most such posters)

In either case, I don't consider it my "job" to respond to either.
You say that you were tricked once (maybe you were, maybe you have merely been tricked into thinking that you were tricked). I say that very, very, very many times, the people asking such questions have absolutely no intention of revealing any truth, but rather proselytizing their own deceit by way of implying that "they" have been lying or are delusional. So by your reasoning, I should simply declare that anyone asking such questions online are just playing a deceitful game and just ignore all questions from the liars and tricksters.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

Don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone is trying to convince you of something with any grand passion or concern. My position is merely one of separating the innocent from the guilty. What you do afterward is up to you.... and "them".

See if maybe you can glean a little of the situation from this post concerning evolution and purpose [of Life]

Kudos St. James. Thanks for presenting that discussion.

How is this for the purpose of our life : Water is always on the move. Even if you trap it in a jar, the moon's gravity pull keeps water moving. Our body is made up of more than 50% water. So the purpose of our life is to keep water moving. We're a water transportation system. So drink up, and pee out, and that's the purpose of our life. Isn't it grand?

But seriously St, James, I'm very tired of spiritualized answers. People turn to the spirit for answers when there are no other answers. Like Harold Camping after his predictions of the return of Jesus didn't happen. He said Jesus came back in spirit.

When answers become spiritualized there's no way to prove it true or not. So it's a slight of hand trick to resort to spiritualizing answers,

And that's why we spiritualize "my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed." Because there are no rational answers to such a statement.

If Jesus ever said such a ridiculous thing, which I doubt, then His norther was right to think Jesus was beside Himself, or tetched. It can't be any more ridiculous then to say eat my flesh and drink my blood. If he meant that we should incorporate His teachings, then why wouldn't He have said it outright, instead of using such cryptic ridiculous terms. Why would Jesus say something that makes Him seem nutty?

Unless, "In the beginning was the nutty word." And Jesus' flesh and blood was magic ... to cannibals and vampires.

And today, believers go thru this silly practice of being cannibals and vampires. What a joke. These believers are tetched in the head. The Bible sure can make people crazy.

[James S Saint]

How is this for the purpose of our life : Water is always on the move. Even if you trap it in a jar, the moon's gravity pull keeps water moving. Our body is made up of more than 50% water. So the purpose of our life is to keep water moving. We're a water transportation system. So drink up, and pee out, and that's the purpose of our life. Isn't it grand?

But seriously St, James, I'm very tired of spiritualized answers. People turn to the spirit for answers when there are no other answers. Like Harold Camping after his predictions of the return of Jesus didn't happen. He said Jesus came back in spirit.

When answers become spiritualized there's no way to prove it true or not. So it's a slight of hand trick to resort to spiritualizing answers,

And that's why we spiritualize "my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed." Because there are no rational answers to such a statement.

The problem is that you were raised thinking in materialistic terms, but you keep asking spiritual minded people to explain themselves. Their words and your words sound alike, but those people have only spiritual concerns in mind whereas you are thinking only in materialistically. But realize, when those scriptures were written, they were not trying to speak to YOU. Materialism didn't even exist. So it is a bit silly to criticize their wording. And even more silly to conclude from your definitions of words that they were lying in any way.

And today, believers go thru this silly practice of being cannibals and vampires. What a joke. These believers are tetched in the head. The Bible sure can make people crazy.

Realize that "vampires", "werewolves", and so on are all just like those scriptures. They are references to behaviors/spirit, not physical entities. They have not been wrong. Their language has been usurped to represent physical things when that was never what they meant. Don't confuse spiritual metaphor with material reality. And it is not illegitimate for them to claim that it is the behavior of a thing that is far more relevant than its physical form. They were not making excuses or hiding their manipulations. They were merely speaking differently than you do today. They were speaking to what they felt was far more important of a concern than what physical forms were present.

That discussion post goes along with my typical posting;

A Contemporary Philosophy

There is the ongoing cause of all that is (a.k.a. “The God”).
There is the order and chaos brought about by that cause (a.k.a. “The Universe”).
There is the adversary to every life (a.k.a. “The Devil”).
And there is You.. an instance of life.

The rest is just noise…

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Amongst all the noise there are many entities great and small, all vying for attention and ultimate influence – “God wannabes”. Some are mindless formations propagating through their circumstances. Some are forms of life, temporarily struggling to survive, not really knowing why and certainly not how, but merely presuming a purpose, need, and desire. Most all merely adding their bit to the noise.


Don't sweat the noise.

The purpose that is inherent in all living things is to maintain and protect its inner harmony. Man learned that to do that requires that he obtain and maintain the harmony surrounding him. And from there, all of the insane efforts of the history of homosapian sprang forth as he attempts threats and false hopes in an effort to control all things.

All joy is caused by an inner perception of accomplishment of that harmony and hope (thus the continual effort). Such is the very make of the deepest devoted love, survival, and that known as "Heaven". If you are looking for something to seek that has true meaning, seek that harmony both within and around you. It will be a full time occupation, don't worry about that. The Buddhists call it spiritual enlightenment, "bliss". But it is not a stagnate thing as many have been led to believe. Its momentum is what keeps and maintains it. Try it and you will see.

Everything else you try will just be more noise upon yourself and others.

"SNR" in that pic is "Signal to Noise Ratio"


Also, from the thread Science and Religion;

In Religion;
People report to you that someone has said and done a lot of things.
You don't know that really happened, but you have faith in the reports.
The person suggested a theory saying that if you do X and Y, you'll get Z.
You haven't done it yourself, but it makes sense to you so you have faith that he is probably right.
They report that there have been witnesses to his demonstration.
You have never seen those witnesses, but you have faith that they existed.
You are a faithful believer.

In Science;
People report to you that someone has said and done a lot of things.
You don't know that really happened, but you have faith in the reports.
The person suggested a theory saying that if you do X and Y, you'll get Z.
You haven't done it yourself, but it makes sense to you so you have faith that he is probably right.
They report that there have been witnesses to his demonstration.
You have never seen those witnesses, but you have faith that they existed.
You are a faithful believer.

See the difference?

Science was talking about the behavior of materials and has the state of technology to prove its case.
Religion was talking about the behavior of people and has the state of nations to prove its case.

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Starting to get a bead on my perspective?


The problem is that it is almost entirely NOISE. You can't discern truth from the noise. And you can't filter the noise (make sense of anything) until you recognize the cause of the noise and compensate. In this case, that cause is primarily LANGUAGE and PRESUMPTION. So try not to be merely more of that cause.

None of the original founders were you enemies. But much like the nuclear weapon, the scientists weren't out to kill anyone. What truths they find gets used and perverted. But that doesn't change the truth of what they found.