The Shibu Paradox
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The Shibu Paradox
by infpmale » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:33 pm
I believe God is so good and perfect that he allows so much free will that evil can exist
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Re: The Shibu Paradox
by James S Saint » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:35 pm
Yep, "paradox" is the right word. 
God is "Beyond Good and Evil".
God is "Beyond Good and Evil".
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony 
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.
The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.
You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.
Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Those who too ardently seek to be seen as correct, see only correctness in themselves.
The Social Paradox - to be well grounded and soundly harmonious, one must rise above the dirt and noise.
The One God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.
The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.
You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.
Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Those who too ardently seek to be seen as correct, see only correctness in themselves.
The Social Paradox - to be well grounded and soundly harmonious, one must rise above the dirt and noise.
The One God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
- James S Saint
- ILP Legend
- Posts: 11148
- Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm
Re: The Shibu Paradox
by infpmale » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:37 pm
The paradox also includes the notion that if there is a perfect good, there must be a perfect wicked that perfect good must tolerate
- infpmale
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](./images/smilies/eusa_wall.gif "Brick wall")
Re: The Shibu Paradox
by James S Saint » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:51 pm
infpmale wrote:The paradox also includes the notion that if there is a perfect good, there must be a perfect wicked that perfect good must tolerate
No. Perfect good rejects bad, all bad. Thus God cannot be said to be the goodness itself, but merely the cause of it ("First Cause").
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.
The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.
You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.
Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Those who too ardently seek to be seen as correct, see only correctness in themselves.
The Social Paradox - to be well grounded and soundly harmonious, one must rise above the dirt and noise.
The One God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.
The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.
You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.
Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Those who too ardently seek to be seen as correct, see only correctness in themselves.
The Social Paradox - to be well grounded and soundly harmonious, one must rise above the dirt and noise.
The One God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
- James S Saint
- ILP Legend
- Posts: 11148
- Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm
Re: The Shibu Paradox
by infpmale » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:53 pm
perfect good must live by free will and impose free will upon others,
thus creating evil
thus creating evil
- infpmale
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:59 pm
Re: The Shibu Paradox
by James S Saint » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:55 pm
infpmale wrote:perfect good must live by free will and impose free will upon others,
thus creating evil
Perfect good must "live by" rules and restrictions.
It is the Rules that create Evil, not the Good that obeyed them.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.
The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.
You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.
Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Those who too ardently seek to be seen as correct, see only correctness in themselves.
The Social Paradox - to be well grounded and soundly harmonious, one must rise above the dirt and noise.
The One God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.
The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.
You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.
Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Those who too ardently seek to be seen as correct, see only correctness in themselves.
The Social Paradox - to be well grounded and soundly harmonious, one must rise above the dirt and noise.
The One God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
- James S Saint
- ILP Legend
- Posts: 11148
- Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm
Re: The Shibu Paradox
by infpmale » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:57 pm
I disagree with your definition of perfect good
According to me belief, perfect good has only one rule, which is free will
According to me belief, perfect good has only one rule, which is free will
- infpmale
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:59 pm
Re: The Shibu Paradox
by James S Saint » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:24 am
Free-will merely means doing anything you want.
Do you believe that is really what is good?
Do you believe that is really what is good?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.
The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.
You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.
Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Those who too ardently seek to be seen as correct, see only correctness in themselves.
The Social Paradox - to be well grounded and soundly harmonious, one must rise above the dirt and noise.
The One God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.
The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.
You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.
Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Those who too ardently seek to be seen as correct, see only correctness in themselves.
The Social Paradox - to be well grounded and soundly harmonious, one must rise above the dirt and noise.
The One God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
- James S Saint
- ILP Legend
- Posts: 11148
- Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm
Re: The Shibu Paradox
by infpmale » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:26 am
Free will creates personal responsibility as well, which is the greater good
as well as wickedness. But it allows the responsible to be good
as well as wickedness. But it allows the responsible to be good
- infpmale
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:59 pm
Re: The Shibu Paradox
by James S Saint » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:40 am
infpmale wrote:Free will creates personal responsibility as well, which is the greater good
as well as wickedness. But it allows the responsible to be good
How can it have "responsibility" if it is free?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.
The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.
You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.
Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Those who too ardently seek to be seen as correct, see only correctness in themselves.
The Social Paradox - to be well grounded and soundly harmonious, one must rise above the dirt and noise.
The One God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.
The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.
You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.
Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Those who too ardently seek to be seen as correct, see only correctness in themselves.
The Social Paradox - to be well grounded and soundly harmonious, one must rise above the dirt and noise.
The One God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
- James S Saint
- ILP Legend
- Posts: 11148
- Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm
Re: The Shibu Paradox
by infpmale » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:43 am
freedom gives us the opportunity for growth and responsibility for our destiny
I am not saying responsibility is good, since the incapable for any reason cannot be held responsible for their lives.
but then again there are all sorts of responsibility, including a collective responsibility, but that is a different issue
I believe God is all about giving freedom, and that freedom is the highest goodness.
and that in fact, freedom is the only goodness there is
The rest is commentary
I am not saying responsibility is good, since the incapable for any reason cannot be held responsible for their lives.
but then again there are all sorts of responsibility, including a collective responsibility, but that is a different issue
I believe God is all about giving freedom, and that freedom is the highest goodness.
and that in fact, freedom is the only goodness there is
The rest is commentary
- infpmale
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:59 pm
Re: The Shibu Paradox
by James S Saint » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:10 am
If God is all about freedom, why are there rules? - the Ten Commandments?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.
The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.
You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.
Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Those who too ardently seek to be seen as correct, see only correctness in themselves.
The Social Paradox - to be well grounded and soundly harmonious, one must rise above the dirt and noise.
The One God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.
The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.
You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.
Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Those who too ardently seek to be seen as correct, see only correctness in themselves.
The Social Paradox - to be well grounded and soundly harmonious, one must rise above the dirt and noise.
The One God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
- James S Saint
- ILP Legend
- Posts: 11148
- Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm
Re: The Shibu Paradox
by tentative » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:11 am
There is no such thing as 'freedom'. All is conditional. You may be freer than, but never free. There is no such thing as good without evil, just as there is no black without white, front without back, high without low.
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia
I don't take know for an answer.
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia
I don't take know for an answer.
- tentative
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Re: The Shibu Paradox
by infpmale » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:18 am
Its not true to say there is no such thing as freedom
and freedom does exist in degrees
and freedom does exist in degrees
- infpmale
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:59 pm
Re: The Shibu Paradox
by tentative » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:25 am
infpmale wrote:Its not true to say there is no such thing as freedom
and freedom does exist in degrees
Partially free? Is that like partially pregnant?
Either you are, or you're not. And we're not. Freedom is a concept, not reality.IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia
I don't take know for an answer.
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia
I don't take know for an answer.
- tentative
- .
- Posts: 11743
- Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:14 pm
- Location: Idaho
Re: The Shibu Paradox
by infpmale » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:26 am
good and evil are also concepts that exists in degrees
we're talking about concepts
we're talking about concepts
- infpmale
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:59 pm
Re: The Shibu Paradox
by tentative » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:32 am
infpmale wrote:good and evil are also concepts that exists in degrees
we're talking about concepts
Then there is no paradox. There is only squabbling about concepts? And of course, the notion of a perfect god is just a concept as well. Where would you like to go with this?
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia
I don't take know for an answer.
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia
I don't take know for an answer.
- tentative
- .
- Posts: 11743
- Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:14 pm
- Location: Idaho
Re: The Shibu Paradox
by infpmale » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:36 am
Its just a concept relax
I believe that as a concept
1) Freedom exists like all concepts in varying degrees
2) Freedom is good since it creates self determination, and eventually rules and structure
3) If freedom is the basic good that creates all good
then perfect freedom is God
This is then an argument against christianity yet an argument for the existence of God as a concept
I believe that as a concept
1) Freedom exists like all concepts in varying degrees
2) Freedom is good since it creates self determination, and eventually rules and structure
3) If freedom is the basic good that creates all good
then perfect freedom is God
This is then an argument against christianity yet an argument for the existence of God as a concept
- infpmale
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Re: The Shibu Paradox
by infpmale » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:23 am
But this can also be made into an argument for God since freedom eventually entails rules
as in the commandments
as in the commandments
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Re: The Shibu Paradox
by James S Saint » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:50 am
infpmale wrote:I'm a theist, not a christian
Huh?
A theist that doesn't believe in the Ten Commandments?
infpmale wrote:perfect freedom is God
This is then an argument against christianity yet an argument for the existence of God as a concept
Emm.. I don't think so.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.
The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.
You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.
Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Those who too ardently seek to be seen as correct, see only correctness in themselves.
The Social Paradox - to be well grounded and soundly harmonious, one must rise above the dirt and noise.
The One God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.
The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.
You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.
Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Those who too ardently seek to be seen as correct, see only correctness in themselves.
The Social Paradox - to be well grounded and soundly harmonious, one must rise above the dirt and noise.
The One God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
- James S Saint
- ILP Legend
- Posts: 11148
- Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm
Re: The Shibu Paradox
by Smears » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:58 pm
Good, evil, perfect are all words that you can define how you like. I can see how it might be entertaining to some to ignore the definitions that would make the statement make sense. Plus its hard to calculate all that utility in a constantly fluctuating state.
The paradox is one of language guys. I know religion bashing is fun, but at least give us something besides the problem or evil. I don't even count that stuff as philosophy, and you shouldn't either.
The paradox is one of language guys. I know religion bashing is fun, but at least give us something besides the problem or evil. I don't even count that stuff as philosophy, and you shouldn't either.
In the faculty of writing nonsense, stupidity is no match for genius. -Bagehot
Life is like a shit sandwich. The more bread you've got, the less shit you have to eat. -an old dude i met once
That which doesn't dismiss you only has to listen to you longer. -Me
Up next: "Are most people midgets?" in the science and technology forum followed by "Is it okay to hit a grandmother?" in the philosophy forum. -captaincrunk
Life is like a shit sandwich. The more bread you've got, the less shit you have to eat. -an old dude i met once
That which doesn't dismiss you only has to listen to you longer. -Me
Up next: "Are most people midgets?" in the science and technology forum followed by "Is it okay to hit a grandmother?" in the philosophy forum. -captaincrunk
-
Smears - resident contrarian
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