On Prayer and Crossed Fingers

No, this isn’t about comparing the efficacy of prayer to crossing your fingers.

Those who believe in God and the efficacy of prayer have an excellent option in life. They can pray for people. And they can tell people that they will “keep them in their prayers”. I believe this is a positive thing, both psychologically and socially. Perhaps there can be side effects, like not doing something proactive, when something could have been done. But I do think this is merely a side effect, and not that big a deal.

So what is the atheist to do? I see two basic setbacks here, for the atheist. One, I can’t say “I’ll pray for you” as that would be lying and therefore kind of icky. Two, I could actually pray or do something similar that has the same psychological and social benefits, but who would I be praying to? That would be kind of a weird solution.

I could say “I’ll keep my fingers crossed for you”.

I could say “I hope everything turns out alright for you”.

I could say “May everything turn out alright for you”.

I could say “I’ll think of you when I do my contemplative meditation practice”.

I could do something to help, without saying anything even remotely in the ballpark.

But sometimes I can’t help at all, and to say “I’ll pray for you” is the best I can come up with. But, of course, I never do say it. That would be icky and weird.

Having no idea what to say can be very painful, and it feels like a complete inability to rise to the occasion and be of some use. To feel so impotent, at the very moment when a situation calls for skillful and compassionate communication, can be so… something. I can’t even think of a word for it.

Maybe it’s for the best. Maybe it’s best to not have a little phrase that I can take out of my pocket like a bandaid and give to somebody who needs it. Maybe we try too hard to heal our sores.

But maybe a bandaid is just what people need.

What, then? I’ll keep my fingers crossed for you?

i get annoyed when someone says they’ll pray for me.
like…really? you’ll say a sentence for me? that’s the amount of effort you’re willing to put in? that’s how much you care? i’d rather you just like bought me a sandwich from subway, save ur breath.

I think the real effect of this practice has more to do with communion with others, than with solving a particular problem.

well, anon, i’d like to say that it’s also sometimes used for the opposite of communion. it’s sometimes used as a weapon, to try to make the recipient who is being told someone will pray for him feel shitty about something, or sometimes just to annoy people. like HelpTheHerd. he says god bless because he knows it gets on peoples’ nerves. if he did it for communion, then once he found out people weren’t feeling that communion but were just getting annoyed by it he would stop. since he didn’t stop, we know he says it for reasons other than to make people feel good or a sense of communion.

or if some ass hole is trying to give you some Seventh Day Adventist pamphlet on a bus or something and you say “no thanks, i’m not really interested,” they’ll pull back, get a disappointed look in their face, and say “i’ll pray for you” as almost an insult, implying that you, by not believing what he believes, have some fault that needs to be prayed for.

Of course, FJ. That’s not really the subject here, though. My OP assumes goodwill.

so you’re lamenting the inability to say something nice to someone like “i’ll pray for you” because ur an atheist.
be creative. it’s not that hard to be nice, haha.

Yeah, I’m being a bit whiny.

To be honest, I was just copied on an email that said “I’ll keep my fingers crossed for you”. It just got me to thinking…

In response to the OP, I sometimes find myself in that strange place where it seems the natural thing to say is, “I’ll pray for you”, but the thought of saying it makes me feel squirmy and I can’t do it. I find the best substitute is, “I’ll be thinking of you”.

When a person says they’ll pray for you, what does it matter if you don’t believe in god? Why get annoyed, ffs? You and your troubles are in their thoughts, they’re concerned for you, and they’re showing you support. Who gives a shit about the details.

Well said, Blurred.

And I like your Jarmusch quote.

Hows-a-bout: “Let me know if there’s anything I can do to help.”
Or if you just want someone to know you’re concerned or they’re in your thoughts, that seems easy enough to say as is, no?

If you don’t care enough to offer something of yourself, why bother with a ‘band-aid’ at all? Pleasantries?

In my experience, offering of a prayer often seems like a way of saying “I care …but from a distance.” Thanks, but no thanks.

I guess something I’m trying to get at here, is this… Is the urge to say “I’ll pray for you” (rather than, say, “I’m thinking of you”) purely a cultural thing? Is it because I grew up in a Christian culture, and in a Christian family? Or is it somehow deeper than that (whether or not it’s deluded)? Is it part of the structure of the mind - just like how we talk to ourselves, even though we think of ourselves as one, and not two?

One of the things here is that I’m terrible at pleasantries, when they actually matter. When they don’t matter, I seem to have no problem with them.

I am the exact same way! I find it is far more difficult to console someone through pleasantries, as such, when I know good and well they do no good. It just seems like a lie to offer words of hope that I don’t even believe. And nobody wants to hear “things will happen as they necessarily must”. That’s why I say offer to help a person cope. That goes a hell of a long way sometimes.

…or you could just carry around a box of puppies to offer those who need a smile.

All in all, I don’t think pleasantries matter beyond the risk of seeming crass. But I don’t think prayer is a necessary component of being pleasant or compassionate. It’s just easy to say and never do [or do half-heartedly].

I think most Christians do pray for others, especially if they say they will, or that they did. That’s an interesting thing for me here. I think prayer does have effect. As I said to Flannel Jesus, “I think the real effect of this practice has more to do with communion with others, than with solving a particular problem.” So I’m tempted to think that the Christian who prays for another and says something nice has actually done more for the person in need than the atheist who simply feels bad for the person and says something equally nice.

To pray for someone is to pay attention to them, in an open and compassionate way. To pay attention to someone in this way is to turn the mind in a particular direction. To turn this meditative mind towards another’s difficulties is to change one’s relationship to that person.

I agree, to an extent, I suppose. Though, I think the atheist is able to be compassionate in an open way through kind words and an offer to help, rather than an offer to ask for help from …something. In fact, I’d argue that a relationship affirmed by action is stronger and more valuable than one affirmed by religious communion. I’m not saying you are more likely to solve a problem, but a display of compassion is more meaningful without a middle man, in my own opinion.

Paying attention is an interesting way to put it, and I do think you’re onto something there. But attention only really implies recognition, whereas an offer implies a more personal concern.

I was trying to keep action out of it. I think if a man’s wife has died, a compassionate person might make him a big pot of soup or something, to help out practically, and as a sign that he is cared for by others. I think that gesture is not limited to the members of any particular religion or group. It is a human act.

I agree about the “middle man”. But somehow that middle man removes some kind of awkwardness. Perhaps that’s a bad thing, in a way. Why can’t we simply be awkward together? Again, though, bandaids are appreciated…

Normal attention does only imply recognition. But I think meditative attention removes obstacles to connecting with others. I’ve experimented with this a bit before - if I just sit quietly and call to mind the members of my family - where is my brother right now? What would he be doing? Where are my parents? What is going on with them? etc. - If I just do that, I don’t just think of them, coldly. Even if my relationship with one of them is not so good, and without trying to change that, this kind of attention opens myself towards them and I just naturally feel more warmth towards them.

I think if prayer has benefit, and I think it does, then this is it. Is it necessary to include a middle man? I don’t think it is. But it’s awkward somehow.

I see no harm in telling someone “You’ll be in my thoughts”. I usually won’t overstep someone’s personal space in telling them “I will pray for you”, unless I am asked to offer up prayer for them. Otherwise I will pray for someone without making it known to them.

I feel very similar to how you feel, anon. This is something that I go back and forth on quite a bit. I usually just go with the person, if they ask for something that is in the form of prayer, I say that I’ll pray for them (I’m a closet atheist, most of my family/friends don’t know of my heathen secret). They don’t know and it makes them feel better regardless if I actually pray or not, so no harm no foul. And for those who are not in that camp, I usually just offer up the notion of keeping them in my thoughts. And as hokey as it sounds, there is probably no harm with putting a good vibe out into the universe. Not that I’m under any kind of notion that my positive thoughts can make the world we live in better, but there is something oddly soothing about it. And even though I feel it to simply be horseshit, even when I do it, …I still do it. I’ve always been a fan of the concepts that everything in existence, the universe in it’s entirity, is connected. Someway, somehow, we’re all part of each other. So maybe, just maybe, those positive thoughts will bounce around between the atoms and the stars and land in just the right spot.

/shrug

Who knows.

i don’t think i’ve ever had the urge to say “i’ll pray for you” even when i was a christian for like 9 months.
i prayed for people, sure, but i don’t recall ever feeling like that’s something i have any sort of drive to say.
not only did i not have the urge to say it, i’m not quite sure i ever did say it.
seems like such a weird, corny, old-people thing to say.

Great post, anon.

If it’s painful enough, if that feeling frustrates enough people, it might just provoke more people to do something about it…

…to learn to get comfort out of doing rather than getting comfort out of well-intentioned phrases and myths.

Yes. Because it’s not a bandaid. It’s mental trickery that provides a superficial level of psychological relief.

I wouldn’t say that. I’d say we try too hard to please other people with the least possible effort. If we really want to help people we’ll do something about it. Forget saying the right words.