I’m interested in people’s personal thoughts and feelings concerning God, as a central principle in their lives. I am also interested in an intellectual approach to the concept, but not in the sense of assertion-denial. For many people, on this site mainly self-professed Christians, God is a meaningful reality in their lives. I suspect many people have experienced positive and wholesome personal transformation and that personal experience is situated within a cultural paradigm which makes conceptual sense of it. In this way communication is engendered through the ability to use common words and phrases, and social harmony (at least within an exclusive social group) is likely bolstered.
On the other hand, I have to admit that there seems to be some invisible barrier here between Christians and non-Christians. The language in many cases seems unfit to the task of communicating across these ultimately imaginary divides. I have wondered recently if it might be a good exercise for a Christian to say something meaningful about his or her worldview without using the word ‘God’ at all. Would this in itself constitute an undermining of Christianity? Or would it encourage the ability to dig more deeply into Christianity’s ramifications and therefore communicate more meaningfully to others? It would only be a temporary experiment afterall.
In my view as a non-Christian the Christians here seem to shrink from saying positive things about their religion which would be meaningful to nonbelievers - probably out of a conscious or unconscious fear either of being bombarded with insults, being forced into a purely logical exposition of their faith, being accused of proselytizing, or all of the above. Non-Christians simply don’t get it, but can’t find a way to communicate the simplicity of that view. Thus they are reduced to arguments over the definitions of words such as ‘atheist’, ‘agnostic’, ‘anti-theist’, etc. That is my “non-Christian but trying to be objective” bias.
I am effectively inviting Christians to say something meaningful to me. I have asked a few here to do so, but haven’t received any responses so far. I’m afraid my requests may have been misconstrued as rhetorical and insincere.
There are negativities associated with religions, but I think it is worth not making too much of whatever we feel those negativities may be, at least in this one thread. Please let this thread be a refuge where people need not fear harsh accusations and palpable aggression. I’m sure I’ve been a part of that trend myself, as it is easy to get caught up by it. I’m simply looking for genuineness and honesty and humbleness.
Anon, on the subject of Christianity, I have always spoken in a postive manner of it. I will not speak of it to atheists I have had contact with unless they approach me about it first. If they reject my thoughts on it, I will not pester them about it anymore. I can be more specific with my answers if you ask about what you would like to know.
I really just meant ‘positive’ in the sense of not merely in the context of reacting to the negativity and argumentation here. I mostly see a lot of defensiveness and I don’t blame anyone for that. My OP is just an invitation to Christians to make a fresh start as if there is no swarm of angry atheists waiting to pounce. I just sense a bit of a vicious cycle here. I was also heavily influenced by Soldout’s recent thread which in my opinion turned the theist/atheist question into a meaningless abstraction - logic taken to its absurd limits. I frankly felt that both sincere theists and sincere atheists would take issue with such an approach and I was a bit annoyed by it. I was surprised by my own annoyance, and for that I am thankful to Soldout in a weird way.
I’ve always been truly impressed with your attitude and intelligence Liteninbolt, and also of many other Christians here. Does my OP appear to be negative towards Christianity? I’m trying to see the situation clearly, but obviously my ability to do so is limited. I won’t hide the fact the I am not a Christian. However, I take Christianity seriously and I am past my angry teenaged years.
Before starting this thread I did a search for topics with God in the title. There were tons, so maybe I missed what I was looking for, but I didn’t find any topics where a Christian simply gave an account of Christianity that might resonate with a non-Christian. If a Christian were to start such a thread they would have to honestly realize that much of the lingo currently used by Christians is not very universal, and often doesn’t make any sense to non-Christians.
Just for point of reference, f12hte’s new thread <“Efficacy of Prayer”> is exactly the kind of approach I’m trying to encourage.
Anon, thank you for your kind words. I find your posts to be thoughtful and intellectually stimulating. The kind of thread of which you speak would be nice to initiate, but so many feel jaded from each other’s responses on both sides of the fence there would be an air of suspicion about it. Christians wear many coats of theistic idealism which causes ambiguities of atheists and agnostics alike. We are human like anyone else except we present a notion that is viewed as somewhat foreign and illogical for some. Plus, there are people who represent Christianity, but let their feelings or own doctrines ‘muddy up’ the waters so to speak. All this does is cause more confusion and distrust. This makes presenting Christianity for people who really want to show God’s love an uphill battle.
The best I could do is explain God’s love for His children and how we are brothers and sisters in Him. Tell them that no matter what we can all receive salvation through His Son, Jesus Christ. We then are forgiven of our sins and should try to walk the path of righteousness, And when we falter, we need to pray for forgiveness so our lives will be a testament for His love and forgiveness. Everyone falls short of Grace, Christians and nonbelievers alike. Christians have no better foothold than others except we have accepted Jesus as our Savior into the next existence. All are capable of doing the same thing, but we must humble ourselves before the Lord and recognize His Omnipotent potential. Some people do not want to make themselves in such a subservient light. All Christians can really do is show what Christianity is about and let others make their minds to how they proceed with their lives. This response to you may be viewed by some as a prostelitic act and dismiss it. It’s hard conveying such thoughts to people in venues such as this and have any kind of a positive impact with them.
If I could somehow convene with fellow Christians here and put aside any theoligical differences to promote such a thread, your notion could work. But, there has been so much animosity here of late, that I think a collaboration for such a post would be difficult. We are after all just human.
Liteninbolt: I agree it is a difficult and perhaps somewhat idealistic proposition. I think I recognize the issues to some degree - I do think it is worth the effort though. Thanks for your thoughtful response!
I am reading Bishops Spong’s “A New Christianity For A New World” at present (after waiting weeks for it to arrive) and it occurs to me that his thoughts about going beyond theism, but not beyond God, seem to have similarities with the subject you have started out on here.
I quite like the way Spong addresses the issue and find his argument straightforward and understandable. In fact, it is vaguely similar to the way I have addressed OT stories in the past, reading “between the lines” or as Spong says, “beneath the words”. I too believe that the impulse to see beyond the God that does everything for you, “Mr. Fixit”, who calms your fears, who brings you up (without reaching adulthood), is in there - if we could only see. Spong points out that the God, who is the completely other, and who we must love with all we have, is the God who is showing us that we should love for loves sake, not because there is an advantage in it for us.
That would be a step forward indeed, towards adulthood, towards responsibility and away from an immature Theism that is like a favourite blanket or cushion, a teddy-bear or a comforting thought.
I like that you are an egoist because it is a rational stance. I myself am an egoist due to the fact that it is a good, rational stance. I find it much easier to like a person who likes themselves, just as I find it almost impossible to like someone who can not even like themselves.
That’s what I thought. You don’t mind wasting other people’s time with inane irrelevant comments. You were just trolling. It’s basically attention seeking behavior. You have nothing significant to contribute here.
Hi Bob. Yes, these are the kinds of things that interest me. Give me some time and I will at least look up Bishop Spong on the internet. Thanks for your initial post.
