The origin of evil

Yes, but when that motive bears no relation to the victim, as in the prestigious American Columbine killings…

They still had a motive. It did not have to do with the victim. Maybe they thought it would be fun.

I said killing a sentient being for “no good reason”, not for “no reason”. There remains a subtle, yet distinct difference between the two. We cherish life, and do not generally like for it to be extinguished for no good reason. I could kill a man to save a country of men, for example. But killing men just to sustain lies and a reign of terror would be considered evil.

so that’s like what I said earlier

Maybe they liked the idea of chaos; maybe to them it was the right way of life. So it still wasn’t evil (not that I am supporting school shootings or anything like that)

She was thrown on to her knees and was crying for life when one of the guns men at columbine held a gun to her head and asked “do you believe in god” she gulped, breathed her last breath and said “yes” and they shot her point blank in the head.
That really happen, there motive for killing that girl was because she believed in god. Perhaps they thought that god is a source of terror, to them god was like the devil and evil. So the reason for doing what they did was a GOOD reason to them. Evil is a matter of opinion anyways. Someone I know said he was excited on 9-11 because he thought there would be chaos. Humans are really like that, they love to see suffering and torment and death. I’m sure you have heard about the gladiators in Rome. Are we not human like them? The way we get that entertainment these days are just different. Ever hear “if it bleeds it leads”
Last stop using the columbine issue; it feels like I am supporting the two for what they did and all I am doing is just trying to prove a point. If it was up to me those two would be thrown in a male jail orgy (after castration) and just be on the receiving end hour after hour. What an EVIL punishment…unless they liked it up the “exit only area” thus it WOULD NOT BE EVIL!!!

Or perhaps our vices in life are what creats some evil, I know nothing…

“mans mind is the root of all evil”
Ayn Rand

I believe that you still believe that there is no evil. You may be right, but let me try another tact.

Killing another human is wrong because it negates our own existence.
It puts the killer’s life in jeopardy. When you kill another human you are saying, “I don’t value human life”. Which of course is a segue into, “I don’t value my life.” (He that lives by the sword shall…) And i’m not sure that you can disvalue your own life with all your being. Your body, at least, will tell you otherwise. So my lights say, “There is evil.”

Of course your opinion may vary. But i’m not sure that you can say what is good for me may be evil for you and vice versa. A great deal of what we see, feel, live, and think depends on our perspective, of course, but we don’t begin to live ethically until we see ourselves as part of the bigger picture. Those vermin in Columbine obviously failed to adequately consider the extent of their actions and how it would impact those around them. I am sure that they felt they were doing the right thing. But was it the right thing for the people who were shot? They failed take into account the lives of those affected by their actions, so their perspective was rather narrow.

This is like bolting the stable door after the horse have escaped. Yes it is an explanation, but, really, it is not saying anything new or illuminating at all, for it is simply another way of saying that there are some - if you don’t like all - evil people, for I can define evil as just having such “narrow perspectives” or “failure to consider adequately consequences of one’s act”, etc. (But I cannot really imagine anyone do not know the consequence of killing another in cold blood! Is there no such thing as a conscience?!)

The perspective in no way explains why people have “narrow perspectives” in the first place, nor is this view substantiated by what is seen in the acts.

You can attribute the lack of education as the reason why people do what they do. Or peer or media influence, even a deliberate choice to see things narrowly. Or a lack of fear of God, or simply that people are evil by nature, and it showed in one way or another, some just more bloody than another.

And if you are to apply the Occam’s razor the simplest explanantion should taken as the most likely.

To INoNothing, do you really believe that good and evil are simply your personal opinions?

If it is my opinion that it is good that I give you a big fist in your face why do you complain?

If it is your opinion that my fist in your face is evil, thats your opinion, why bother me with it? If you do then I think another fist in your face will do you more good, and therefore here is the fist!

C’mon man get real!

Hi Marshall,

Wrong quote - right approach ‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God out of all thy heart, and out of all thy soul, and out of all thy strength, and out of all thy understanding, and thy neighbour as thyself.’ If we love ourselves rightly, we can hardly fail to love others. And whoever does not love others, cannot love themselves duly.

I have doubted this statement in the past but believe it today to be very true. If a society values life, it will value all life and not distinguish between good and bad. If a society doesn’t value life, then it doesn’t value life at all. I truly believe that our societies are moving out of a phase of decadence into a phase of negligence - and the sin of negligence is the worse evil! The consequences of negligence go further than outright murder.

Shalom
Bob

The origin of evil?

Man’s emotions.

Man gets passionate about something: something fails to happen the way he wants it to happen; or else something happens the way he doesn’t want it to happen.

Man’s insatiable greed, his desire, his aversion, his anger, his hatred, his fear, his pity, his ignorance…

…his error, his confusion, his disturbance, his emotional immaturity. This is the seat of origin of evil.

Chanbengchin writes:

Great post! Thank you for steering me back into the main topic which is the origin of evil. I was more or less trying to delineate it’s nature due to the fact that probably not all here agree that there is such a thing as evil.

Bob writes:

Yes i think your, “love thy neighbor as thyself” is the positive side of my more negative, “He that lives by the sword shall die by the sword.” In the final analysis, we experience ourselves. If we have loved ourselves, it becomes that much easier to love others, if we have wielded swords, we must usually fall upon them.

Adam Smith said, “All that is necessary for evil to prevail is that good men do nothing.”

p.s. Have you ever read any Thomas Mann Bob? I’m currently reading an English translation of the Magic Mountain (Zauberberg).

yes I do.

Its probably is good for YOU. So your opinion is that a fist in my face would feel good means that, well its not evil, you enjoyed it. Why would i complain? because I didn’t get anything good out of it, so there for I think it was an evil thing to do while you thought it was good and great. Sounds like an opinion because there is no right answer of “is punching someone good or bad?” Ask a teacher and they will probably say its a bad thing, ask a gang man you likes street fighting he will chuckle and say “that’s awesome man”

All I get out of that is that you want to fight me because your OPINIONS are different then mine.

Maybe opinions are the origin of evil?

Think of September 11th. chanbengchin, that’s when two BIG planes hit two BIG buildings and so on. The people who carried out that thought they were doing such a good thing that they were willing to die for it, they thought it was so good that they would be granted a nice place in heaven to relax for all of eternity. We thought it was evil (hence the name evildoers by president bush) because our people were dieing. They think were so evil that they want to kill us and we now think they are so evil so we have to kill some of them. All because of god might i add.

There is no evil, that’s why you cant find the origin of it.

Hey since when you can make an opinion for me? or anyone else? since good and evil is an opinion, how do you know what’s my opinion about Sept 11? Bush thinks they are evil, but thats Bush’s opinion, not necessarily anyone else’s.

So you think whether a thing or a person or whatever is good and evil is a matter of opinion, then what to you, in your opinion, is evil?

Seems to me that INoNothing has you all confounded.

Seems to me he alone has a better understanding of ‘evil’ than the rest of you put together.

Evil is after all a matter of opinion.

Remember, there are no absolutes and all is subjective - admit the opposite and you admit god and god-centred morality at that.

Oh, the insufferableness of it!!!

I dont know, so what. That is just helping to prove my point.

I couldnt agree more.

I think a lot of stuff is evil, but my opinion of what is evil doesn’t matter. How did I get these opinions? It was how I was raised. If someone was raised to think mass killing of Jew was ok, then to them it wouldn’t be evil. Obviously we think its evil to do that (I agree) but they thought they were ridding there country of problems. There opinions were different.

Another example is slavery. Some people ask how the slavery the U.S. had wasn’t evil, they ask how someone could still believe that it is ok to treat African Americans the way we did. It was the way the people in the south were raised; they didn’t have any idea of a different life style. There opinions on who should do what and how they should do it were different then others.
[/quote]
Evil is after all a matter of opinion.

Heard of something called irony?

What I am saying is that even if your view of good/evil being opinions are logically consistent, it is entirely unreal, impractical and absurd.

How can you let one man’s opinion - Bush’s - of 9/11, with the hundreds deaths, lead to thousands deaths - if you include not just Americans’, but also Afghanis’ and Iraqis’, civilian or otherwise, innocent or otherwise - in wars in faraway and hostile places. What if you are one of the Americans who died in these wars? Or if you are a father, or mother, or brother or sister, or friend, of one of the dead or dying or maimed? How can you let one man’s opinion make a murderer out of you?

Would you just stoically shrug your shoulders and say, “That’s his opinion, and I dont care and I dont bother”, and walk unflinchingly into death and destruction, letting some mere man’s mere opinion enslaved you even unto your death? Or you do face the bullet and bomb and death because it is indeed evil that you are fighting, even if you have another opinion about it.

Why does the law of a land persecute a murderer for murder regardless of the opnion the murderer may have of the goodness to him the murder may be?

Even if indeed good/evil is a matter of personal opinion the world cannot let it be - to let each and everyone pursue his own goodness: anarchy is the result. In the end someone in the position of authority will impose his opinion of goodness on all. Would you then, a free man, willingly let another hinder or prevent you from achieving your own goodness? and rather let others imposed evil on you?

chan,

“How can you let one man’s opinion - Bush’s - of 9/11, with the hundreds deaths, lead to thousands deaths - if you include not just Americans’, but also Afghanis’ and Iraqis’, civilian or otherwise, innocent or otherwise - in wars in faraway and hostile places. What if you are one of the Americans who died in these wars? Or if you are a father, or mother, or brother or sister, or friend, of one of the dead or dying or maimed? How can you let one man’s opinion make a murderer out of you?”

What is the big deal with human death and destruction? Can you not see that humans are a small slice of a very large cake? At one moment you can say humans are evil and at the next you prize men as though they were the beginning and end of all. It seems to me that some of you out there forget that we humans are merely part of that entire organic entity that from god’s view amounts to nothing more than a smear of slimy fungus like stuff coated somewhat haphazardly on the outside of a lump of rock hurtling through space.

”Would you just stoically shrug your shoulders and say, “That’s his opinion, and I dont care and I dont bother”, and walk unflinchingly into death and destruction, letting some mere man’s mere opinion enslaved you even unto your death? Or you do face the bullet and bomb and death because it is indeed evil that you are fighting, even if you have another opinion about it.”

Firstly, I would suggest you read what Socrates has to say on the matter, (Apology, Crito…)

Secondly, I hope you’re not knocking stoicism! It is the most internally consistent and workable of all the philosophical systems; certainly it is the most wonderful invention of all in the realm of moral theory and practise. It has never been improved upon and all the so-called greats of modern times acknowledge some debt to its wise teachings! What is Christianity if not a watered down version of Christ’s original stoic moral teaching?

Thirdly, you have the wrong idea about stoicism if you think we don’t care and don’t bother! Sure, we don’t care about menial things but we care about all that matters, and that includes our duties as citizens, fathers, friends, brothers, soldiers, etc… And it is only cynics and stoics who truly understand the concepts of freedom and slavery and how it is possible for a man to free himself from the shackles of his menial earthly cares and burdens. We also understand the true nature of evil, its origins, the so-called ‘problem of evil,’ its manifestations, and so on. So, I’d appreciate it if you avoided superficial remarks about stoicism.

”Why does the law of a land persecute a murderer for murder regardless of the opnion the murderer may have of the goodness to him the murder may be?”

I’m not sure it’s fair to say that the law does “persecute a murderer.” Perhaps you mean “prosecute?” What the law does is the law’s business. Morally a murderer is a human being first, leastways, that’s how we stoics treat people.

”Even if indeed good/evil is a matter of personal opinion the world cannot let it be - to let each and everyone pursue his own goodness: anarchy is the result.”

But can you not see that what actually prevails in the world here and now is that everyone does in fact pursue his/her own goodness? By the way, what’s wrong with anarchy? The thing is that the world is big enough to have bits of anarchy going on and bits of fascism and bits of Marxism and bits of democracy etc., – you just can’t have everything everywhere exactly the same all the time.

When you say, ‘the world cannot let it be,’ you seem to say you are of the opinion that the world has some say in the matter! Don’t the politicians take credit when the economy is going well? And what do they say when things are not going well, why they blame it on others and things outside their control. You can’t have it both ways!

“In the end someone in the position of authority will impose his opinion of goodness on all. Would you then, a free man, willingly let another hinder or prevent you from achieving your own goodness? and rather let others imposed evil on you?”

When will you learn? Not even god himself can impose his opinion on me!!! Did you ever hear the expression, ‘moral choice?’

“What I am saying is that even if your view of good/evil being opinions are logically consistent, it is entirely unreal, impractical and absurd.”

Sounds like opinion there, where are the facts?

Why does the law of a land persecute a murderer for murder regardless of the opnion the murderer may have of the goodness to him the murder may be?

Because the mass of men don’t want to sit back and let people kill one another as often as they feel. (plus they want to feel safe) Thus they create laws preventing it! Why do they have the laws preventing the murder from murdering? What a silly question, its because no one what’s to be murdered over some mans opinion, or over anything, no matter how just and right they may be, they still don’t want to be murdered! Someone might think people who eat meat should die and to them, killing the carnivores would be just and fair. But would you, (im assuming you like meat) like to be killed over there beliefs, over there thought of eating meat is evil? no mans opinion can be absolutely right, that’s why its an opinion, so it would be wrong to kill him because you thought it was just, because nothing is just. Perhaps that is why true justice could never exist.

Would you just stoically shrug your shoulders and say, “That’s his opinion, and I dont care and I dont bother”, and walk unflinchingly into death and destruction, letting some mere man’s mere opinion enslaved you even unto your death?

Not at all, I would react with my opinions and then, survival of the fittest.

Even if indeed good/evil is a matter of personal opinion (which it is) the world cannot let it be (but it has, it Is right how and always has been)

to let each and everyone pursue his own goodness: anarchy is the result.

Not necessarily but in some cases yes. Look at America, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It seems to be working out for the most part, so far.

In the end someone in the position of authority will impose his opinion of goodness on all

That has happened, and then wars start. 

Would you then, a free man, willingly let another hinder or prevent you from achieving your own goodness? And rather let others imposed evil on you?

Like I said early, I wouldn’t, I would fight back

we need more people to think like phrygianslave, he’s seems to see how the universe works. But obviously that is my opinion

To acknowledge and say that ALL men are evil is different from treating or acting towards evil men what is their due, namely death, as you have implied here. To do so is judgement and who are we to judge anyone? To know is wise, to judge is not. And also can not evil men become good? Is it a hopeless thing to hope for?

Are you sure? What is your evidence for saying so? And how do you know what “god”'s views are? Do you have special privy into the mind of god, if “mind” is an applicable concept to whatever this entity, “god”, is?

stoic (from dictionary.com): Seemingly indifferent to or unaffected by pleasure or pain; impassive. To be stoic does not mean you ascribe to Stoicism.

But back to the point: is good/evil merely an opinion? I am saying no as it leads to absurdity. Also I am implying that there are objective measures to say whether something is good or evil.

And certainly we all have opinions about any matter. So what then is your basis upon which you opine that something - an act, a person, an object (whichever is applicable) - is good or evil?

Based on some of the discussions here, these are some positions:- it is the act that is judge good or evil, and the act is judge based on its consequences. And there seems to be no agreement to the extend to which the actor is responsible for the act. But there are difficulties in this view, especially no one can see all the consequences played out. Also acts per se, eg killing, is a neutral thing.

• it is the motive that makes an act good or bad. Of course we cannot see another’s heart and motives, even ours, and therefore there will be disagreement and varying opinions as to what the motives were. But we still are able to agree in a range of situations, eg as in a jury coming to a decision in a murder case.

• it is the person that determines whether an act is good or evil. (And this is my view.) Whoever is good does good acts, even if it appears strange, wicked or evil to the uninformed mind. Whoever is evil does evil, no matter how good the act may seem.Calling good/evil an opinion does not resolve what good/evil is nor address the issue in this thread what is the origin of evil.

“moral choice”? I do not know what that phrase means. Care to illuminate?

Chan,

Are you simply being rhetorical again, i.e., are you really interested in my answer or is this just a game we’re playing?

To acknowledge and say that ALL men are evil is different from treating or acting towards evil men what is their due, namely death, as you have implied here. To do so is judgement and who are we to judge anyone? To know is wise, to judge is not. And also can not evil men become good? Is it a hopeless thing to hope for?

What I am saying could not be clearer. Strictly speaking there are no evil men. There are no good men either. To call men evil or good is to walk as one who is blind. There is but one thing and one thing alone that can be spoken of as either good or evil and that is the prohairesis. When you understand this everything that has previously seemed not to make sense suddenly falls into place and you wonder why you never realised this simple truth before!

Are you sure? What is your evidence for saying so? And how do you know what “god”'s views are? Do you have special privy into the mind of god, if “mind” is an applicable concept to whatever this entity, “god”, is?

Please keep all this: What is your evidence for saying so? -type stuff for the university classroom pedants and their lapdogs. That sort of evidence is foolishness. I know what god’s views are because I am my god. I am the only one who has power over whether or not I belong to the quick or the dead, no one else, me and me alone, therefore I exist, therefore god exists.

stoic (from dictionary.com): Seemingly indifferent to or unaffected by pleasure or pain; impassive. To be stoic does not mean you ascribe to Stoicism.

I will ignore the dictionary stuff.

But back to the point: is good/evil merely an opinion? I am saying no as it leads to absurdity. Also I am implying that there are objective measures to say whether something is good or evil.

Yes, in this world, good/evil all boils down to opinion. It may well lead to absurdity. Didn’t Camus regard life as absurd? There is no objective standard or rule because we live in a world where all is in conflict, i.e., in flux. But I believe the Zen Masters say that where there is an impasse there is a way out. And they are correct.

And certainly we all have opinions about any matter. So what then is your basis upon which you opine that something - an act, a person, an object (whichever is applicable) - is good or evil?

Of course we all have opinions and beliefs and dogmas and judgments and heresies and so on… and virtually all of it worthless because the art of applying our preconceptions is not practised, i.e., philosophy now is all classroom talk and no action.

[i]Based on some of the discussions here, these are some positions:

• it is the act that is judge good or evil, and the act is judge based on its consequences. And there seems to be no agreement to the extend to which the actor is responsible for the act. But there are difficulties in this view, especially no one can see all the consequences played out. Also acts per se, eg killing, is a neutral thing.

• • it is the motive that makes an act good or bad. Of course we cannot see another’s heart and motives, even ours, and therefore there will be disagreement and varying opinions as to what the motives were. But we still are able to agree in a range of situations, eg as in a jury coming to a decision in a murder case.

• it is the person that determines whether an act is good or evil. (And this is my view.) Whoever is good does good acts, even if it appears strange, wicked or evil to the uninformed mind. Whoever is evil does evil, no matter how good the act may seem.
  Calling good/evil an opinion does not resolve what good/evil is nor address the issue in this thread what is the origin of evil. [/i]

None of these. It is the will. Evil originates in the prohairesis and is then projected on to the external world, i.e., it is personified.

“moral choice”? I do not know what that phrase means. Care to illuminate?
Unable to right now have pressing engagements….!