Matt-
I am beginning to to think that we should simply merge into one poster, as I seem to consistently agree with much of what you have to say 
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Yep, the Anglican Church is in quite a pickle.
What belief will be questioned next? Will we soon have a division of Christianity that (gasp!) disregards the word of God and believes in evolution?
lol, well someone has already confused us to be the same poster a month or two back.
Thx for you post Pax, twas very good, I hadn’t realised that it’s ok to be gay as long as you didn’t actually perform the deed though everything you say makes sense now.
I saw an interview with an apparantly prominent American priest who said that they’d been blessing Gay unions and were considering performing Gay marriages (I think he was suggesting starting in the next year), so that could get around the sex outside of marriage lark.
Now I assume he’s read the Bible, if I understand it becoming a Priest is quite hard work, you have to know your theory and your Bible inside out (wern’t you studying to be a Priest Pax?). I think my underlaying question is, do most priests actually believe in God? Because they behave as if they don’t!
I was, till I thought better of it. “Thank you God!†is all I can say for Philosophy! Feck Jesus! Philosophy saved my soul.
It’s different for Anglicans then it is for Catholics. A Catholic priest must follow the rules of the Catholic Church before everything else. The bible is secondary to Catholic dogma! This is one of the reasons for the existence of the protestant religions. The Anglicans believe that each person can interpret the bible and part of knowing God, is understanding God through how he reveals himself in the bible, so the laws in the bible are central to their faith, though the general moral spirit of the laity depends on how fundamental they are. Despite the bible being the center, they still have bishops to help with the traditional teachings in the bible, as how it’s interpreted doesn’t change much over the course of history. It’s only since the Enlightenment that all the Churches have started to show there age. So the Anglicans still have a council to interpret meanings for the entire Anglican Church.
You’ve probably heard of: God the Father, God the Son, well the Anglicans also have: God the Bible. Because of this and a person’s ability to interpret the bible the Anglican Church is more open to possible disagreements about what God (the bible) is trying to say. This gives both the laity and the priests more room in what they believe in, but if they vary to much from the standard Anglican teaching they run the risk of no longer being Anglican. Its not like Catholicism were you can just excommunicate somebody, the Anglican system is more fluid and shapeless which is part of its strength.
Homosexuality is probability one of the only issues that the bible is adamantly against! Most other subjects you can find contradictory opinions on, which I have throughout my many readings of the bible, but not homosexuality! While I personally no longer care for what the bible has to say on such subjects, if you want to be any way orthodox in your Christian beliefs gay sex is an absolute no, no. Above is the quote which Matt was referring to, there are many more, but I don’t plan to look them up.
Over approximately the past 50 years, since around 1940’s after the war the Personality ‘Jesus Christ’ has been slowly disentangling its self from the traditional teachings in the Christian Churches and even the bible. Jesus is a character that is universal and is seen as a forgiver of sins and loves all people without exceptions. It was St. Paul that founded all Christian Churches, not Peter or Jesus! It was Paul’s teachings and interpretation of Jesus that led to shaping & forming of the Christian Churches; it was he who made the impact on the world, not Jesus! If it weren’t for how Paul took and shaped the Gospel of Jesus through the Letters, the Gospels wouldn’t have been taught to all nations, Christianity might have just remained a sub-cult amongst the Jerusalem Jewish community, initially, then spreading out into the Diaspora.
My main point about the above is there is a growing number of people who worship at Christian Churches that worship the ideas that ‘Jesus the Celebrity / Personality’ stand for, but when it comes to the Church’s opinion on doctrine or dogma completely ignore them. They use the church to praise Jesus, while paying lip service to the tradition of the Christian Churches. This is where the future of the Christian religion is heading: Jesus disembodied from Christian Churches remaining a central force in world religion, interpreted through peoples lifestyle choices with devotion as their personal saviour, while the last of the fundamentalists will hold onto the Christian Churches traditional teachings, which the world will increasingly see as outdated, obsolete and irrelevant. The only people who will have any interest in the Christian Churches are those that can use it to their advantage, like people in developing nations.
Some sins are more grevious than others. There are mortal sins and venial sins. Among the mortal sins there are more or less grevious: killing is worse than theft; killing one’s mother is worse than killing a stranger. Sins commited in an altered state of mind are worse than one commited with a clear head, and sins commited in ignorance are lesser than ones comiited in full knowledge.
Ok, on to the topic. Like Pax said, there’s nothing wrong with being gay. Being gay in itself is not a sin or even shameful. The actions (sex) that may result from it are very serious sins, however. Moreover, it is not wrong to have an openly gay bishop (even in the Catholic Church) so long as 1.) He isn’t having sexual relations, and 2.) He isn’t promoting a gay agenda (which would be leading others to sin).
I’d argue with Pax that it’s the “fluidity” of the Anglican church that is what’s causing all these problems. I don’t see how you can interperet:
any differently, but since they go by the bible as their first and last source they lack a lot of the theological insight that the Catholic Church has. How many great protestant theologians have there been?
I would like to say that homosexuality was around during the bible’s time. It does not mark a sign of modern times(a refridgerator is a sign of modern times, not a form of sex)
So them keeping up with “modern times” is not a valid argument. Keeping up with demand maybe, but not with modern times.
Interesting topic. I don’t understand why people get upset at christians when they don’t allow gays into the church… to me, that would be like having an alcoholic priest, but really even more akward because although homosexuality has always been around it is certainly not something American society has heard much about before the last 20 years or so.
I think that if there is a God, God tempts everyone in a different way. I don’t really agree that the performing of homosexual acts are the sins, but I believe that most every sin comes from within us, and our actions are symptoms of those sins (presupposing christianity, God, etc.). For instance, stealing isn’t neccesarily the sin, but a symptom of greed… God may tempt one man with greed, he may tempt one man with sex… We are all sinners, true, but I don’t blame the church for not allowing a man in that openly praises something that goes against the very doctrine with which the christian church and religion is based. So I guess it would be like having a priest that taught that being an alcoholic is not a sin, but just a different disposition than most people have.
Pax Vitae Said:
Amen! I did’nt know you were studying to be a priest.
I believe it was Pope John Paul II who said (refering to homosexuals) “Love the sinner; hate the sin.” It gives Christians a bad image when we attack homosexuals for being gay, rather than teaching that the act is wrong. It seems like a contradiction to me to say that its OK to be a gay priest so long as you don’t practice gay sex. That’s like saying it’s OK to be a theif as long as you don’t steal, or its permissable to be a murderer as long as you refrain from killing people. The act defines the person. It’s perfectly fine, in my mind, to have been gay, ceased to practice homosexuality, and become a priest. Since you no longer engage in the sin, you are no longer defined by it. The Bible teaches that all sins are equal in the eyes of God. We need to be careful not to fall into the trap of alienating homosexuals from the rest of the world simply because their sin is different. The Anglican church will undoubtedly lose much of their following if they continue to support homosexuality in such a manner. The other contradictions between the Anglican Church and Scripture won’t help the situation. This is the core issue that was at the heart of the Protestant Reformation.
“Since then Your Majesty and your lordships desire a simple relpy, I will answer without horns and without teeth. Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I cannot do otherwise. God help me. Amen.”
The above post is mine. I guess i wasn’t logged in.
Good to text you again SuperStrongSteve! How ya been? Good Post! How does one reconcile “love the sinner, hate the sin” with “the act defines the person”?
I’ve been doing quite well. Thanks for asking. How about yourself? Now, to the point. Excellent question. I think it is quite possible to love the sinner while still believing that the sin defines the person. Allow me to illustrate. If a child were doing something wrong, such as ditching school regularly or being continually late to class, he may be labeled a “habitual truant.” A parent can still love their child even if he has become a habitual truant. They may, quite appropriately, place restrictions on him as a punishment. This doesn’t mean that they don’t love their child; it simply means that they are doing what is best for him (no, I’m not suggesting we “ground” every homosexual). If we weren’t able to love the sinner, there would be no love in the world whatsoever. Unfortunately, there are some out there who interpret the Bible wrongly. I do not thing that we should accept homosexuality, but we should still accept the person. For some reason, the world has perceived homosexuality as a graver sin than others; I’m not sure why. I do not believe that we should condemn them any more than anyone else. But, likewise, we should not give them any more priveleges than anyone either.
I have noticed the same thing. Within the Christian Church, premarital sex is also considered a sin, and since homosexual marriages are not performed or acknowledged by the Christian Church, we can infer from this that same sex relations are in the same vein. With that said, I don’t hear a big outcry from the community about sex before marriage. From my limited understanding, all sins are equal since in God’s eye since they create distance between him.
1.a) love the person (including sinners).
1.b) hate the sin.
2.) the act (including sin) defines the person.
The act may do little to define a person. That person may have judged the act from his/her motivation, from the acts expected consequences. The person may be under duress, coercion, etc. Perhaps a God made them do it. The act is the final step in a long chain of ever-evolving processes, not all of which we have complete control over. It seems to me that religions ( to my mind, especially Christianity) is too quick to judge people.
But the thing that i dont understand is how the church could elect a Gay bishop that isn’t even trying to stop his sinning. The church is promoting the sin. It doesnt seem to me that they are hating the sin.
It will end in homosexuality not being a sin in a lot of denominations, the same way divorce is now okay in some sects, the same way that priests can now marry. The paradox is that if you were an alien looking at the effect (religious doctrine) with no notion of the cause (spirituality), it would seem that either a.) we don’t have a freaking clue what God wants or b.) God keeps changing his mind.
[laughing]
Thank you, Marshall. You have moved, or toppled rather, mountains with this statement.
I’ve heard and read the poritons of the Bible claiming homosexuality as an atrocity. True, in the old testament, this is supposedly the word of God. However, in the new testament books, these are simply the opinions of apostles in letters written to each other. However, there’s one part of the Bible that the Christians must have forgotten about, I mean, that’s the only way they wouldn’t live by thse words as well
Starting with Matthew 7:1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgement you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your broth’ers eye, but do ont consider the plank in your own eye. Or how can you say to your brother, let me remove the speck from your eye, and look a plank is in my own eye? hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. Ending with Matthew chapter 7:5
Now, I’ve read all of Matthew, all of the Bible in fact, so I guess I must’ve missed something. Would one of you christians mind pointing out the verse in teh Bible that says, “Oh yeah, and before I forget, all Christians please completely neglect Matther Chapter 7, it’s just in there to make sure we look like an open minded group”? Sorry, but i haven’t been able to find that one yet, oh yeah, i forgot, I know why i haven’t found it, BECAUSE IT ISN’T THERE!! So to all those who judge and call others sinners, God will judge you and call you a sinner, and for those who condemn others, includign the homosexuals to hell, you will also be condemned to hell, look there in that passage, your own God called you a hypocrite!!! Hahahaha, where is you great Christian high and mighty errand now?
So by that logic, you can’t call a guy who killed your whole family a sinner??? As you’ll be the sinner! God I’ve LOVE Christianity! 
If you look at what really pissed Jesus off! It wasn’t calling somebody a sinner!!! It was calling somebody a sinner, while you also committed the same sin!
To Jesus there is only one sinner in life; The Sin of Hypocrisy! Because sin to him is about being true to who you really are. If I don’t complain about my faults, but do complain when I see the same faults I have in others! That’s the sin!!! It’s that simple I can call somebody a Murderer and condemn them, so long as I don’t go then and commit the same sin! As then I will be damn! I’ll be damn by my own standards of what is right and wrong. I will be a hypocrite!
I think that it is best stated in Matthew 7 how we should look at others sin. I am an out and proud mother of 6 children (3 of which I birthed) and when I tell most Christians that, they tend to tsk tsk and feel sorry for my children.
Let me start by saying that I lived the better part of my life trying to conform to the ideology that society has placed upon us as humans and in the process, I managed to give my children low self esteem by example. They saw me with thier father truly unhappy, feeling like a failure and not loving myself at all. They picked up on that and adopted my way of thinking regardless to my constant uplifting of them. Once I left their dad, I struggled alone to take care of them (which wasn’t new I’d done this our whole relationship). They watched me day and night working and sometimes crying because of how my life turned out. I knew deep down that I couldn’t suppress my lesbian feelings any longer. So I ‘came out’ to my family and friends and my children. After about two years of learning myself and asking God to take this sinful nature away from me and send me what I needed, I accidentally met the woman of my dreams. She was just as spiritual as me. Having a hard time accepting this aspect of her life, just like me. And she had 3 children just like me. We connected on a level that I had never connected with anyone on all my life. And we have been together ever since.
I said all of that to say, NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO JUDGE OUR FAMILY OR LIFESTYLE BASED ON OTHER PEOPLES MISTAKES! I meet homosexuals all the time who make me ashamed to be a lesbian. My family has to worship the Creator at home because we aren’t welcome in churches in our neighborhood.
I think that Theoreticality said it best,
So those of you who just can’t help being judgmental and wishing for the downfall of our union, remember this. I doubt that the Creator would condemn me to an eternity of hellfire and damnation just for unconditionally loving this woman and her children and accepting them as my own. I think that what God wants is for us to lead a happy, spiritual and prosperous life. So please, think about that before you throw out words that hurt innocent children and tear down what they know as family. Or before you abandon helping people to realize the truth of God just because they live thier life differently than you. We are all God’s children and he loves us ALL!
Spiritualez. I’m glad that you have found your soul mate, i don’t think many people do. The gay community is frequently denied marriage, visitation, and other rights in this country. I hope one day this will change.