who/what created god?

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who/what created god?

Postby jedi_pocky » Mon Jul 07, 2003 1:04 pm

uh yes, in your opinion or interpretation..
even if he is a supposed 'divine ultimate supreme being' he had to come from somewhere. (the same way that some doubt that the universe banged from out of no where)
where did god come from if not from our minds?

EDITED TO ADD:
thank you to ben who pointed out that my statements were merely assumptions. heres the train of thought:
assuming that there is a god (not to say that there isnt), where did god come from? the 'god' im referring to, i shall attempt to clarify (although not a defination of god) but i am referring to god as a creator. once again, assuming that he has to come from somewhere (although not necessary that he has to come from somewhere). and also assuming that we have a creator and that the creator is god.
what is your take? if you are a theist, where did he come from?
if you're an athiest, where do you think theists think he comes from?

that is, if he came from anywhere at all.

i hope i make some sense.
needless to say, scientifically, all this cannot be proven (except for scriptures? - which i am not familiar with, thus i am here to ask for your interpretation).

this is also a rather shallow assumption of causality(?) that everything has to have a cause (and of course this is not so.) but if there is a cause for god, what is it?
Last edited by jedi_pocky on Thu Jul 10, 2003 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
what say you to this?
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Postby ben » Mon Jul 07, 2003 1:19 pm

even if he is a supposed 'divine ultimate supreme being'


This is your assumption of God. You are already assigning your own personal attributes to God with no evidence or reasoning for your argument. How can we possible start a conversation on God if I disagree with your definition?

he had to come from somewhere


This is another assumption. Says who? Many schools of thought say that God is infinite and is the uncaused cause. Prove to me that God 'had to come from somewhere' and then we can start discussing where he came from if at all.

where did god come from if not from our minds?


Is your argument tied up in all this? Are you really trying to say that there CAN be no scientific answer to your question 'where did God come from' and so you're positing that we created God in our minds? I'm not entirely sure of your train of thought here, can you explain a bit more?

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Postby xplicit^ » Mon Jul 07, 2003 9:27 pm

I doubt that anyone of us can say where the God comes from if at all. I don't think that this is something we human beings should now. Many of us are tempted to believe that God comes from our minds. Considering the islamic religion and the appearance of angel to the prophet... How can you prove that he created it in his mind?! Or maybe that's a fact. You can't know it and you can't prove it...
Why not asking then is there a God at all and if then where this God comes from etc?
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Postby TTM » Tue Jul 08, 2003 1:57 pm

Assuming that God does exist, the question becomes a lot easier to answer when we realize that time itself is a creation of God. He's outside time and the confines of this universe - it's not hard to see that his existence would be eternal.

I don't think that this is something we human beings should now.


Personally, I think it's the purpose of our existence to know God.

Many of us are tempted to believe that God comes from our minds.


Yes, it's a possibility. It's also inevitable that many religions are of human origin.

Considering the islamic religion and the appearance of angel to the prophet... How can you prove that he created it in his mind?! Or maybe that's a fact. You can't know it and you can't prove it...
Why not asking then is there a God at all and if then where this God comes from etc?


Concerning Islam, I would say that it is more than just a human work. I say this because there have been recent scientific discoveries which confirm the claims made in some passages in the Koran. However, this does not prove that it is, as they claim, a work of God. I'm highly suspicious of it, especially because of the passages in the Christian Bible which mentions that the enemy can pose as "an angel of light", and the Koran's claim toward Judaism and Christianity are inconsistent in many ways (plus, denial of Jesus' divinity is a major no-no, and Islam specifically does just that).

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Postby xplicit^ » Tue Jul 08, 2003 9:04 pm

but also many passages of the Bible had been written by priests in the most difficult times for their religion. It was not a creation of God, but of human beings who are embody the idea of God!
"If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of yourself. What isn't part of ourselves doesn't disturb us." ~ H. Hesse
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Postby Guest » Tue Jul 08, 2003 9:12 pm

TTM
Personally, I think it's the purpose of our existence to know God.


Isnt this just what religious people say to get people religious: and through there religious moral.

Ben
Prove to me that God 'had to come from somewhere'


Well he must come from the mind; it's not like he came from my toe.
It can be said there is no-way we could know any how; the creation of a "particular god" is based on a holy lie. It was a way to improve mankind-- giving him a truth: simply those with assess to books, literature were able to use lauguage to give early man "truth" over a multiplicity of sensation's.(in modern life "spread the word of Jesus") This truth gave us purpose, reason over a metaphysical-logical need. Channelling it to those that wanted to rule, like the kings of egypt telling the people the sun wouldnt come up if they didnt worship them.

But there is no-way religion can be refuted, as there is no-way we can prove through scientific method and analysis that "god" in any form or dimension doesnt exist. We can never fully "know" phenomena. Infact we can never "know" anything; only imagine causes to sensual effect.

TTM
(plus, denial of Jesus' divinity is a major no-no, and Islam specifically does just that).


You cant refuse the Islamic faith, when it stand's on the same logic the Christian faith does. The is no doubt that Jesus existed, but you cant rule out, that they were many false accounts. Paul-- "a god" that died for our sins: redemption through faith; resurrection after death. This lead the church precisely against what Jesus preached, and what he taught his disciples to fight. Plus how do you explain the move from the Pope to the king in medival times? - simply a move from one person that takes richs to another, falsified dogmatism. Copernicus and Darwin: how science finally should of stopped organised religion.- but it didnt, "doubt" somehow prevailed...

Spinoza's "god" is everything: i like spinoza's philosophy of "god". Even though ive lost my faith, i still like to think im wrong about the semitic-christian faith. But the Testaments were one of the greatests works wrote: wrote with wise reflection not known since "Plato" and his Republic. But even then Aristotle was more of a "materialistic" man then "spiritual"; but even through his scientific analysis, nothing he wrote could prove anything different. Perhaps religions strength, is it cant be stopped by science; indeed science needs religion. So how can we even comprehend no future?-Religion.

My conclusion: im my own "god" or better put "im god". 8) Not that im great or better or more enlightened then you, cause you yourself are "god". Thats to me the best way to think about the god question; like when the greeks used man as there figures of gods(Zeus). "god" must be similar to the species that imagines God!
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Postby Guest » Wed Jul 09, 2003 10:24 pm

God was not created, but everything comes from him. He is in everything and controls everything for is own purpose.God has always existed and always will exist.Why he has always existed is a mystery that we may never understand, but so is life.Yes everything comes from something(except God),but everything has a beginning or start and God is that beginning.
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Postby jedi_pocky » Thu Jul 10, 2003 8:27 pm

ah. i have edited the original question and elaborated more. thank you to those who tried to answer my rather vague generalisations.
what say you to this?
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Postby jchristian » Thu Jul 17, 2003 8:43 pm

Its hard to answer these questions when there are so many preconceptions reading the one answer...

but the question - where did god come from is totally assuming that god occupys space in a realm that is limited by the confines of time. As I mentioned on my site and discussion board, time is simply an illusion

if you read between the lines to someone like einstein, its quite evident... time only exists in the mind of the perceiver... but if your perception is omnipresences, you are experiencing all of time and none of it at the same time, which in mathematical terms - voids time. don't forget - the absence of time isn't no time - its 'NOW'. time is a reference... much like measurements.... there is an infinite between 1 and 2 for example.... but someone, somewhere has defined points on the scale and we have referenced our minds accordingly and accepted the illusion. Time is no different. infact... just look at yourself... have you ever seen the future? have you seen the past? no - you've only really been in the NOW but your mind has accepted the illusion of time and you talk as though you've done this or are going to do that... but you've only ever "doing that now".

hard to explain.. i hope u caught my drift.

so getting back to the question... where did god come from... its sort of like asking "why does a snake fly"... its a closed question - a snake cannot fly.... just like god cannot come from somewhere...

i've written extensively about this on my site... before asking/attacking these points of view... please read the relevant posts on my site because chances are I've already answered the questions....

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http://www.SavingGod.com
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Postby Guest » Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:21 am

but the question - where did god come from is totally assuming that god occupys space in a realm that is limited by the confines of time. As I mentioned on my site and discussion board, time is simply an illusion


Is it? thanx for pointing that out, i never new that - god i better go to your site instead of this one, with such original thoughts as you have. :x (i bet its interesting :lol: ) i need that head butting the wall emoticon
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Postby Frighter » Thu Jul 24, 2003 3:55 pm

i think that we can agree that god, if he exists, exists outside our universe. that being the case i dont think there is any way that beings from inside the universe can have any idea how things outside of it work. causation may not even play a role for all we know.
Whatever i just said is irrelevent.
And i know i have bad spelling. Live with it.
Start with assumption, That a million people are smart...Smarter than one?
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I agree

Postby User@guest.com » Sat Jul 26, 2003 5:18 am

I totally agree with your questioning? Where does God come from? I love that question. I do not like it when people assume that it is too difficult of a question to answer, therefore, they are silent.

Myself, I do not know the answer, but I cannot quit questioning. Thank you for questions.
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Postby jedi_pocky » Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:31 pm

ah. causality is often a trap.
this question arised when i was engaging in some silly post pub banter about the creation of the universe. me on the side of big bang, friend was a creationist.
friend said that the universe couldnt just pop outta nowhere.
i said that before this big bang there were (most likely) many more before but we're still trying to find that singularity. (very limit readings on cosmology there)
friend: god created the universe! the universe cant spring from nothing nor can it just have existed all the while.. the universe and us had to come from somewhere
me: then what bout god? this god sprung outta nowhere too and is taken for granted to have existed all the while. why is my perception of the origins of the universe wrong, but your view of god right when they in fact parallel each other?
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Necessary Being

Postby Kennethamy » Fri Aug 22, 2003 7:01 am

At least some philosophers have held that God is a necessary being. A necessary being is contrasted with a contingentbeing.
A contingent being is something that, although it does exist, [/i]might not have existed. For instance, this chair I am sitting on is a contingent being since it might not have existed (if it had not been made by someone) although it certainly does exist. Another exampe: you and I are contingent beings since if our parents had never met...etc. we would not exist, although we do exist. (And of course, there was a time when we did not exist, and a time in the future when we will not exist) So if it is possible that something should not exist, should not have existed, or will not exist, that something is a contingent being.

Now, a necessary being, if there is such a thing, would be something that
must exist; that could not not exist. It would be impossible for that being notto exist.

The notion of a necessary being is a very controversial one, and many great philosophers, among them, David Hume, and Immanuel Kant, have argued that the very idea of a necessary being is incoherent or senseless.

But a famous argument for the existence of God known as the Ontological Argument is founded on the idea that it does make sense to talk of a necesssary being, and that God is a necessary being.

Now, supposing that it does make sense to talk about a necessary being, and supposing that God is a necessary being (
supposing mind you) then it follows that no only is it true that God did not "come from somewhere" but it is impossible that God should have come from somewhere. That is because for God to have "come from somewhere" he must have not existed at some time, and then existed. But if God is a necessary being, if, then there could not have been a time when God did not exist, for it is impossible for Him not to have existed. And it that is true, then the question, where does God come from? which supposes that God is a contingent and not a necessary being, is as flawed a question as the old question, "When did you stop beating your wife?" is a flawed question because, "When did you stop beating your wife?" supposes what isn't true, that the witness has a wife and has been beating her, and, equally, the question, "Where does God come from?" supposes that God is a contingent being and not a necessary being, which, we are supposing, is not true.
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Postby Guest » Tue Aug 26, 2003 1:03 pm

if god came from your mind, then you are saying you created god and thus you are god.

however, you depend on air which you did not create, thus you can't be god.
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Postby Guest » Tue Aug 26, 2003 5:37 pm

The concept of time (and thus cause and effect) is a product
of your conciousness. Outside of your conciousness, time does
not exist.

At the "time" your conciousness was created, god already existed.
Therefore, in the beginning (of time) there was god. As
far as your conciousness is concerned god always existed.
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who/what created god?

Postby lharrison » Sat Sep 06, 2003 12:30 am

Why God of course,he is the Alpha and the Omega.
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