What if the Messiah showed up nowadays..

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What if the Messiah showed up nowadays..

Postby Clementine » Fri Dec 06, 2002 10:58 am

Would we lock him up in a mental hospital, would we ignore him thinking he was just a drunk street prophet... is possible to identify such good person in the world today without thinking he is a charlatan and is probably up to something?
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Postby Magius » Fri Dec 06, 2002 11:48 pm

I think it depends on what religions messiah. As far as I know we can automatically exclude Christianity and the muslim religions. Since, the Torah, The Bible, and the Koran are all really the same religion just different books from slightly different times. The Torah is the first and most incomplete, followed by the Bible which is a more detailed version with added content. The last is the Koran which postulates that Muhammed is the last Messiah. Personally, I think the books make for great fiction novels. Furthermore, if read from the right perspective they can lead a person to a happier life. But that is true of anyone's work.

What's your take?
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Postby Clementine » Sat Dec 07, 2002 2:15 am

You didn't reply my question tho... I don't care which religion... any, pick one. If a 'Jesus' was to come to earth again... how do you think people would take him?
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Postby Qzxtvbzr » Sat Dec 07, 2002 3:14 am

If you look at Jesus biblically, he wasn't a madman or some street-corner Jesse Jackson. He was "a normal person in all things but sin."

is possible to identify such good person in the world today without thinking he is a charlatan and is probably up to something?


I think now more than ever people need such a person to identify with. Why do you think people flock to these TV preachers/"miracle healers". Most people, however see them for what they are; comic relief. Some people follow them all the way through to the end though, which is sad that their need for something greater blinds them so.

If Jesus were to show up today, I think there's a strong chance that he would recieve that kind of label. "Another Sunday morning TV preacher." However, I do think hat people will begin to see past that. The real thing will always shine through eventually. "The brass grows dull, but the gold still shines."

I think that it wouldn't be too long until He reaches the Bob Gram level and beyond.

My main point is, I mean look at the moral dearth in the world! Look at the numbers of people, at least in the USA, flocking to "popular religions" (e.g. Jehovas Witness, TV preachers, Unitarians, 'New Age' Religions). People need something to hold on to, something greater. If people grasp onto these fakes to desparatly, imagine what would happen if the REAL THING were to come.
No paragraph breaks in your post? tl;dr.
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Postby BigRed » Sat Dec 07, 2002 7:05 am

I think if Jesus or any other Messiah were to come to earth today they'd have to be embraced by the people.

Why would God/Allah send a Messiah to earth at a time when the people would ignore them, or just lock them up in a mental hospital. The fact that a Messiah has come to earth must mean that the it's at a time when the people are ready and willing to accept the message they have to bring.

If someone claims to be a Messiah and their message doesn't spread, then they must not have been a Messiah.
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Postby Skeptic » Sat Dec 07, 2002 5:17 pm

The first or the second coming? I will assume the first.

If the messiah came back these days?

I wouldn't suspect that things would be much different than they were two thousand years ago with Jesus. Although Mass Media could add a new spin. Just imagine, Jesus' infamous "Sermon on the Mound" could have been televised internationally. We would also have more credible evidence of his miraculous healings and such, rather than the second hand accounts that we are left with today. Maybe even a reality TV show that followed Jesus around with a helmet cam, called "The Real J.C." or something like that. Of course, I think that the most likely scenario is that Jesus would not be able to stand up today's standards. His miracles would be proven false, his claims would be proven negative, and he would most likely be put in a mental hospital. Well, there's my opinion.

(By the way Magius, Muhammed was not the Messiah according to the Qur'an. He was only a messenger. Jesus is still the Messiah according to the Qur'an and they also believe in his second coming, but they just don't believe that Jesus was deity like the Christians do.)
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Postby Magius » Sat Dec 07, 2002 9:02 pm

Thanks for the correction I think, everyone I talk to says the same thing, that Muhammed was the last Messiah and that there would be no more. But your message is well noted, I hope either during the christmas break or next summer that I will get a chance to get the dusty Koran off my book shelf and open it to page 1 and not close it until I am finished. Only then will I know the truth.
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Postby Skeptic » Sat Dec 07, 2002 10:47 pm

Thanks Magius, for your open-mindedness. That is one of my favorite things about you. I only hope that I will do the same when necessary.

everyone I talk to says the same thing, that Muhammed was the last Messiah and that there would be no more


No doubt, as this is a very common misconception. Muhammed does claim to be the "last messenger" but he makes it very clear that Jesus was the Messiah. Although Messiah is made to mean very different things in all three religions. I apologise for not citing any sources in my previous post, as I am by no means an Islamic scholar and you have no reason to believe me otherwise.

Look at misconceptions 9 and 10 from this website. It quotes verses from the Qur'an as well. Enjoy!
http://members.tripod.com/~bimcrot/sv/misc.html
Last edited by Skeptic on Mon Jun 23, 2003 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby inward » Sun Dec 08, 2002 1:12 am

Don Quijote would say that He is here already, only that we don't see Him. And if I come to think about it, I agree.
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Postby Clementine » Mon Dec 09, 2002 10:52 am

Skeptic
Maybe even a reality TV show that followed Jesus around with a helmet cam, called "The Real J.C

Haha… how depressing. Jesus having to be at reality TV shows to prove himself is funny (am bit sad too). I will have to agree with the rest of your post.

The whole point is… I don’t believe goodness has any value in society today. Good people are crushed by the system. There is no place for the good, you must have to have huge ambitions,… business ambitions… you need to generate money, you need to keep economy growing, there is not time for being good, only time for ‘progress’.
Cle

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Postby Qzxtvbzr » Mon Dec 09, 2002 11:51 pm

I don’t believe goodness has any value in society today. Good people are crushed by the system.


The tallest blade of grass is always the first to be cut by the lawnmower; however the roots still grow deep and strong.... if ya' get my metaphor
No paragraph breaks in your post? tl;dr.
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Postby Pax Vitae » Sat Dec 14, 2002 9:57 am

I’d say He would be pissed!

If it were a “second coming” he would be off to Rome to sort out a brothel called the Vatican, that has prostituted His morality for worldly gain. “What does it profit a man to gain the whole world, only to have God come along and destroy it?”

TV evangelism would be next. He’d shut them all down. While they all call Him the Antichrist.

Bush would also get his ass kicked, a long with all the secret service fools and Saddam.

Fundamentalism of all kinds would be next on the list. But this would take an act of God to fix, as they just don’t listen to anybody but the “voices” in their heads.

World poverty would be next… But at this point, when He asked for all our money to sort out the rest of the world we’d all tell Him to piss-off, as we love are “stuff” more then God, giving Him the finger. We’d then be looking for “Judas 2006” to sell him out and the UN would have Him up for crimes against the peace, and wanting to cause international unrest. Then the light show called Armageddon kicks off to the sound of an angelical commentator’s voice “Are you ready to be H U M B L E D!!!” followed with an Ozzy Osborne Christmas special introducing Ozzy’s Father, also known as The Dark Lord, Satan. But by this point we’ll all think we’ve gone completely insane and be calling out for Rosebud, Rosebud!

But really, I think the second coming has already come and gone! But we missed it, as we love the way it is more then the way it should be.

Pax Vitae.
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Postby ben » Sat Dec 14, 2002 11:15 am

This is very off-topic but I just wanted to correct a few things in Magius' post. Sorry if you feel you are being targeted Magius but you hit a nerve with me and i just want to re-educate ;) Ok disclaimer over..

Since, the Torah, The Bible, and the Koran are all really the same religion just different books from slightly different times.


I would accept that there are some similarities within the three books, most notably between the Torah and the Bible, but I would not call them the same religions. Christianity was a complete revision of the Old Jewish Law with the focus being on belief in Christ and the after-life rather than the present life. The rituals, beliefs, morals, practices are all very different in each religion.

The Torah is the first and most incomplete


Why do you consider it incomplete? Before the New Testament was written it was complete. You are only saying this from hindsight because you are aware of the New Testament but that does not mean it is a continuation of an unfinished book. What is it that makes it incomplete?

followed by the Bible which is a more detailed version with added content


Ok let's clear this up. The Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) is made up of the Torah, Neviim (prophets) and Khetuvim (Writings). The Christian Bible is made up of Tanakh + New Testament. They haven't added anything to the previous Tanakh and so is not more detailed, it has only "added" on the New Testament. You already know about the Muhammad (p.b.u.h) thing.

feel free to correct

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Postby Guest » Sat Dec 14, 2002 2:20 pm

actually, regarding the second coming of christ, i'll recommend you guys to read a book in the bible - revelation. it describe how the coming of christ would be like. just a little insight, it'll be grand coming. it's unlikely anyone wouldn't notice the phenomenon
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Postby Pax Vitae » Sat Dec 14, 2002 3:19 pm

ben wrote:Christianity was a complete revision of the Old Jewish Law with the focus being on belief in Christ and the after-life rather than the present life. The rituals, beliefs, morals, practices are all very different in each religion.


That maybe true for Christianity, but this is not what Jesus was hoping to accomplish. I believe what he hoped to do was reform what was wrong with Judaism at that time.

I’m sure you know, the Sadducees only believe in the ‘Books of Law’ so did not believe in an afterlife. While the Pharisees beliefs, which I’ve been told are closer to current day Judaism believed in an afterlife. While I agree that Christians changed the focus from this life to the next, I feel this was done so people would think more closely about what they did now in this life, as they will also have to life in afterlife.

It can be seen today that most Christians only pay lip service to what Jesus taught. Which is what the Jews of the time were doing to the Law, according to what Jesus said.

The Christians also made Jesus more important then what he taught, which is wrong. As it’s only what Jesus taught that has any real value. Jesus was a moral philosopher, who used religion to get his message across. I hope I don’t cause offence when I say this: the Hebrews / Israelites / Jewish people would have slipped into obscurity if it wasn’t for their love of God. Even when they didn’t have a nation they had a God to identify them as a people. I feel this is what the Christians did with Jesus. They needed to have their own identity, so they centred themselves around Jesus who they saw as their king and then God. The New Testament for about 160 years was only an oral tradition, and like the fishing story the fish caught gets bigger with each telling.

ben wrote:
The Torah is the first and most incomplete


Why do you consider it incomplete? Before the New Testament was written it was complete. You are only saying this from hindsight because you are aware of the New Testament but that does not mean it is a continuation of an unfinished book. What is it that makes it incomplete?


The morality taught. I would say forgiveness is better in the longer run then, an eye for an eye, or the stoning of women. Knowledge evolves. We know more about the physical world today then we did 300 years ago. Knowledge grows with each generation building on previous generations. So the oldest Book would have the least knowledge, then next would have a little more, and so on. Even the way the Jewish people practiced their religion has changed.

ben wrote:Ok let's clear this up. The Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) is made up of the Torah, Neviim (prophets) and Khetuvim (Writings). The Christian Bible is made up of Tanakh + New Testament. They haven't added anything to the previous Tanakh and so is not more detailed, it has only "added" on the New Testament. You already know about the Muhammad (p.b.u.h) thing.


Do you mind me asking what are the books of the Neviim (prophets) and Khetuvim (Writings). Are the Neviim, like Daniel, Jeremiah, Isaiah??? And Khetuvim, Proverbs, Lamentations??? As I would be interested in finding out more about them.

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Postby Skeptic » Sat Dec 14, 2002 7:35 pm

I'm am completely with Ben on this. (BTW, from previous posts, I noticed that you are spending some time in Israel. What are you doing over there?)

To Pax:

Concerning the Pharisees and the Sadduces. Yes, the Pharisees did believe in the afterlife, but that was not the common belief throughout the ages nor did they have any reason to believe that. The Torah left no indications of an afterlife. The belief came about for the same reason that Christians believe in the afterlife. It helps people to deal with the concept of death. The afterlife was not a belief of any of the original Hebrew tribes, either. God didn't tell anyone about Heaven until later.:wink: Like Ben said, Judaism and Christianity are two completely different religions. Ask any Jewish scholar.

Do you mind me asking what are the books of the Neviim (prophets) and Khetuvim (Writings). Are the Neviim, like Daniel, Jeremiah, Isaiah??? And Khetuvim, Proverbs, Lamentations??? As I would be interested in finding out more about them.


Exactly. It is believed that the Torah was later compiled with the Nevim and the Khetuvim by King Ezra. This was similar to the canonization of the Christian bible at the council of Carthage.

The Christians also made Jesus more important then what he taught, which is wrong.


I agree. Paul completely changed Jesus' message. If you compare the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of Paul, you can easily see how Paul strayed from the original concepts that Jesus had developed. They should really call Christianity, "Paulianity"!

Throughout the development of Judaism and Christianity, historically we have seen it evolve to what it is today. The beliefs of Moses were not the same as the beliefs of Solomon, likewise with the beliefs of David, each of the Prophets, and then Jesus vs. the Gospels vs. Paul vs. Revelation. There is no consistency in belief, only new thoughts and interpretations and this will continue for centuries to come. People will always continue to believe what makes them happiest!
Last night as I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky, I thought to myself,
"Where the heck is the ceiling?!"

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
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Postby Magius » Sat Dec 14, 2002 8:58 pm

Ben,
being targeted is my thing, so don't worry...

Ben stated:
I would accept that there are some similarities within the three books, most notably between the Torah and the Bible, but I would not call them the same religions. Christianity was a complete revision of the Old Jewish Law with the focus being on belief in Christ and the after-life rather than the present life. The rituals, beliefs, morals, practices are all very different in each religion.


Ben, my statements arise from a previous thread between myself and Skeptic, in was about how I met with a radical religious guy (in my university) who told me about the Islamic religion and the Qur'ans teachings. All my info comes from him and a few other people. I don't claim the information to be correct. Skeptic came in afterward and stated that he thought I had an interesting experience and that what I had written about his speech to me being a summary of the religion. So Skeptic agreed with the fact that the Torah, Bible, and Qur'an is the same religion (which is what the guy told me). The guy I spoke to also echoed the same statement about the Bible being a revision by the Jews. Only that he said that they altered it without rights. He also said that the Torah was the first and most incomplete, followed by the Bible, and then the Qur'an which is the finished product.

Ben stated:
Why do you consider it incomplete? Before the New Testament was written it was complete. You are only saying this from hindsight because you are aware of the New Testament but that does not mean it is a continuation of an unfinished book. What is it that makes it incomplete?


I'm nuetral on this, I did state in my previous post that I have not committed myself to anything and that I won't know for sure until I READ THE QUR'AN! Don't presume to tell me why I am saying anything, give me enough respect to defend my statements and answer your questions without you telling me why I said something.

One other person whom I spoke to that is a 3rd year religion major also confirmed the fact that the Torah, Bible, and the Qur'an are all the same religion. So I have two sources saying the same thing. BUT I AM NOT 100% CONVINCED THEY ARE RIGHT, JUST TELLING YOU WHAT THEY SAID. I WILL POST MY PERSONAL BELIEFS EITHER AFTER CHRISTMAS OR NOT UNTIL THE SUMMER WHEN I READ THE QUR'AN.

What's your take?
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Postby Skeptic » Sat Dec 14, 2002 10:19 pm

Magius:
I think that your message some how got mixed up. You don't believe that all three are the same religion, right? You were just saying that they all originate from the same roots, right?

The Muslims believe in the Quran / Hadith, the New Testament, and the Old Testament. In fact, Muslim means "the people of the book" refering the Torah. In fact, Muhammed even said that all people of the book, Muslims, Christians, and Jews are God's people. They just don't believe that Christ was God nor do they believe anything but the Quran to hold God's word.

The Christians, believe that Muhammed was a false prophet and that the Quran and Hadith were false testaments. They also believe that the Jews and Muslims are not in accordance with the New Covenant (Jesus Christ) so they will suffer eternal damnation for their mistake.

The Jews believe that both Muhammed and Jesus were false prophets and do not accept either the New Testament or the Quran as anything but false writings.

So, they all believe in the same 'Hebrew God' but the religions are very different. I think that this is what you meant but it got misconstrued.
Last night as I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky, I thought to myself,
"Where the heck is the ceiling?!"

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
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Postby Magius » Sun Dec 15, 2002 7:50 am

Skeptic stated:
Magius:
I think that your message some how got mixed up. You don't believe that all three are the same religion, right? You were just saying that they all originate from the same roots, right?


I'm not saying anything other than I don't have an opinion until I read the actual Qur'an. All I was saying is what people have told me so far. Whether that is true or not, is taken as a grain of sand for me. I will most definitely share my views once I read the actual source.

Thank you for your notes, they are well taken. But like everyone else that has shared their views with me, I will do my best to remember them but I won't form an opinion of my own on the matter until I have read the Qur'an.
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Postby Clementine » Mon Dec 16, 2002 2:26 pm

‘If it were a “second coming” he would be off to Rome to sort out a brothel called the Vatican, that has prostituted His morality for worldly gain….’



Hahaha. Pax_Vitae, I LOVED you post… I even laughed my arse off in the office.
Thanks for that… made my day.
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Re: What if the Messiah showed up nowadays..

Postby Jakob » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:42 pm

Clementine wrote:Would we lock him up in a mental hospital, would we ignore him thinking he was just a drunk street prophet... is possible to identify such good person in the world today without thinking he is a charlatan and is probably up to something?

Jesus was seen as such as were most of these people, Socrates and such vagrants...
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Re: What if the Messiah showed up nowadays..

Postby WendyDarling » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:06 pm

Jesus would scare the shit out of people.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: What if the Messiah showed up nowadays..

Postby Jakob » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:43 pm

With his miracles?
He would end up on talkshows if he wasn't careful.
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Re: What if the Messiah showed up nowadays..

Postby Meno_ » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:04 pm

Sorry. Remember Uri Geller and his miraculous magic deeds? Later on he was exposed as a fake. People are too skeptical now days, when fact and fiction are daily conflated
Besides, who has not seen the myriad fake jesuses, in white robes, carrying oversized crosses, placards earn g the world's end?

Besides, he wouldn't be that dumb this time around, having hopefully learned his lesson.Otherwise, instead of being proclaimed a messiah, he would be dis missed as another fool, even amid exhibitions of convincing miracles.
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Re: What if the Messiah showed up nowadays..

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:11 pm

You mean like a miracle of blocking out the sun with an unexpected eclipse or making all people hover in the air simultaneously? I don't think that he will go small again. Witnessing his abilities is going to be shocking and undeniable. A planet-wide earthquake might be fun.
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