Is God a meany?

Some people considder God to be somehow evil. (No, I’m not one of them.) Is there any of you who think that, and why?

NO. I do not think that either. Here is something you might find interesting. I thought it up one night and have considered it almost proof for God ever since.

The Problem:

  • God has everything he needs, thus he can’t be creating the world for selfish reasons.
  • There’s no one to pity before the advent of creation, so god can’t be creating out of pity for anything existing then.
  • If he’s pitying future people, well, that’s a paradox for him to create due to a pity which is in turn due to creation
  • Plus, if he created due to pity he wouldn’t have created any unhappy people.

Thus, god can’t have created the universe. It must have been there naturally.

forums.philosophyforums.com/show … readid=643

Thats the link if you want to see the original tread; it’s from another forum I hang out in.

My Answer: God is a being that loves (an answer to your thread). He created the universe, the world, and us creatures out of love. He created them not so that they could love and worship him (a selfish reason), but so that they could be loved by him (an unselfish reason). God loves so much that he wanted other creatures to experiance that love, the greatest of all emotions. That is why God created the universe, so we could know what love is, not out of pity; that is a very unselfish reason (proving what I said).

Why I consider it almost a proof of God: What a concept that is. Creating out of love and so that other creatures can know what love is, even thought they will blaspheme you and deny your existance. How amazing is that? Who, or What would every think of something like that except a Supreme, and All-Loving Being?

This also can tie into free-will. What is love unless you can choose to love freely?

Brilliant!!

I’ve never thought like this before

I apologize if I am missing something, but I do not see any proofs of God here. Do you mean to say that it is a proof of God b/c it’s a great concept? To me there are no proofs in your logic. If I am missing something please point out my err.

The only logic that I see is that it would be contradictory for God to create due to pity. Your suggestion was that God created out of unselfish love. Please expand if you would or if I missing something please point it out.

No, I don’t think you’re missing anything. I said I almost consider is a proof for God.

But, yes. I say it because it’s such a wonderful concept. I know that isn’t very philosophical, but I’m at the stage of building upon my beliefs now, not merely laying the foundation.

Again, you didn’t miss anything. Let me tell you how I approached this when I first saw the problem, though. Since creating out of pity or selfish reasons would be a contradiction, he must have created for unselfish reasons (assuming you believe God exists). I realized that pity stems from love; why would you pity someone unless you felt love for them or at least some empathy to some extent? Plus, having gone to Catholic school all my life I’d been taught about this all-loving God. This is where I began to expand from: God created out of love.

To be frank, I really just didn’t want to bring the cosmological arguements to bear. They can only get you so far and I wanted to attack this from a theistic standpoint for once instead of an agnostic or atheisic one. I wanted to take what I’d been taught about God and see if it could possibly fit to explain this, and it did.

I understand you now and only wish that ‘wonderful concepts’ could be a basis for my beliefs as well. :wink:

Wonderful! I agree. Cosmological arguments will only get you so far.

From a theistic standpoint I would agree that your logic checks out. From a theological, standpoint I would have to disagree. Biblically, speaking that is. I need only suggest the concept of 'hell". This is in direct contradiction with the concept of “unconditional love”. Would you agree? If not, explain you reasoning.

(It’s good to have another theologian on the board. H2O has been the only one whom would debate theology with me thus far.)

OoOoh! But theology is fun!!

I just want to let you know that that isn’t what my beliefs is based on. I’ve had my own experiances that have led my to believe that God is real. If there’s one thing Catholic school has done for me (besides annoying the hell out of me; haha, I’ve had some of the worst principals) it’s given me a sound foundation for my faith.[/i]

I’m an atheist. However, am considering God as a biblical character, therefore, real in its story.

If God can’t be evil then he can’t be good. There must be evil, otherwise the concept of goodness is not valid, and vice versa. So, to be good, he must also be evil.

In genesis, God himself created the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, so he probably knew evil… and how is that? How can you know what is bad when you have nothing or no one to show you what it is. There was only God before men, and when he create men, they had no knowledge of good and evil… so they couldn’t be an example for God to define evil. Saying that, God was the only one to have complete knowledge of good and evil, and how did he know that? Because he was good and evil himself.

When men ate from the tree and realized they were naked and told God, he asked who had told them they were naked, and understood that they had eaten the fruit from that tree. If noticing the fact that they were naked is a representation of acknowledging evil and good, and God knew that it was a result of eating the fruit, then it proves that God already knew evil… therefore, God is as evil as he is good.

Qzxtvbzr:
God is a being that loves. He created the universe, the world, and us creatures out of love. He created them not so that they could love and worship him, but so that they could be loved by him. God loves so much that he wanted other creatures to experiance that love, the greatest of all emotions. That is why God created the universe, so we could know what love is, not out of pity; that is a very unselfish reason (proving what I said).

My questions are:

  • For God to love, he must love something. How can he love anything is there was nothing there?
  • If he wanted other creatures to feel love, then there must have been creatures before he created them, otherwise, he would have created creatures from nothing… things that weren’t existents… only to make them love?
  • Suppose he was bored and wanted to create things, from his own pure mind, to love (no very likely, but, anyway). Why then those creatures would have to kill to eat instead of surviving from love?
  • If he created things to love, where do the other ‘emotions’ come from?
  • You say he created the universe so we could know what love is. But we weren’t existent before, so we couldn’t even know anything for we just weren’t at all.
  • How could God pity something if those weren’t existent?
  • God had no reason to be selfish, as he had everything. So why did he create the universe? For fun?
  • If he was the only being, then were the idea of CREATION came from?
  • Why create anything if you are absolute?
  • Was he lonely?
  • If so, isn’t that possible that he is selfish, therefore not all good?

I could ask questions forever… but I will let you reply to those 1st.

Woah. Awesome questions. I’ll try to answer them as best I can…
Note, this will be a looooonnngggggg post so hold onto your socks. Please read it all because I will probably answer your early questions later in the post.

I have a couple of thoughts on this one.

Firstly, not everything, has to corespond an object. You can have love, without nessicarily having to love something.
Secondly, following up on the previous thought, God could know what love is, and know how great it is, thus wanting other creatures to experiance it.
God didn’t love anything because there wasn’t anything to love, but he did know what love is. Or perhaps he loved his future creations?

Genesis 1:1 In the begining, when God created the heavens and the earth,

“When God created the heavens and the earth (Universe is substitued in some texts),” it says. Following logic (and I don’t mean to be captain obvious), before anything is created it doesn’t exist. Thus there was a time before heaven or the universe existed. Only God existed, no other beings existed*. He did create from nothing for in Genesis 1:3, it says, “and God said, ‘Let there be light,’ and there was light.” Likewise everything else was created, by God’s word.
*I will get into Angels or “Free Spirits” in answering your next question.

Ahh, but God did create creatures out of his own mind that could survive from love alone. They are the angels.
This leads to the question then of if God alreay had creatures that know love why would he create humans? From my understanding of angels, their numbers are set. They cannot procreate. I also do not know if, even though they have to love of God, that they can love each other to the full extend that we can. So in a way their emotions are limited? I’m a theologist, not an angelologist. I’ll reform my thoughts on that topic and come back later.

All emotions stem from love, even it’s “opposite”, hate. St. Augustine says: "…that all emotions are caused by love. Therefore hated also, since it is an emotion of the soul, is caused by love
Now everything can be divided between love and hate; you either love something, or hate something to greater or lesser degrees* (like or dislike). Take any emotion and the object it is directed to. You will either find that you love that object or hate it. If you would like examples I can give them but for the sake of keeping this short I’ll forego them since you should be able to come up with your own.
However, even hate comes from love inasmuch as: "
St. Thomas Aquinas says: “Nothing is hated, save through being contrary to a suitable thing which is loved. And hence it is that every hatred is caused by love…”
*I know people can be indifferent towards things. To consider this I’dd have to bring in the idea of apathy and it’s causes and I’d be moving into psychology which I admit I am completely ignorant about .

Yes. Nothing existed before the universe was created. God had this lvoe and was so moved by it that he created the universe so that beings could exist and know love. God didn’t create the universe so that we, as in you and I specifically could know love, becuase as you said, if we didn’t exist, we couldn’t care. Hmm… I don’t know how to explain this… Perhaps someone else could help me put this concept into suitable words. h2o? skeptic?

This wasn’t my idea. The idea was that:

The main point here is - If he’s pitying future people, well, that’s a paradox for him to create due to a pity which is in turn due to creation
This is an example of conveluded logic. You question in fact goes more to supporting what I said. How indeed, could He be pitying what doesn’t exist? If there is nothing to pity then He couldn’t’ve very well been creating out of pity, now could He?

He created the universe out of love, so that everything in it could be loved. That is an unselfish reason and no paradox is formed.
I could ask in turn: Why should He need to be entertained if He already has everything?

From Him. Isn’t that obvious? Perhaps if you elaborate more on this I can give a better answer. There are too many things you could possibly mean by this so for now I will take it at face value. Sorry. :unamused:

Why not? I don’t mean to be cryptic but it is jsut as valid as your question.
God does not have everything. He is “that which no greater can be concieved”. Simply because God exist does not mean that creation exists, it only means that God exists.
I also answered this. God created out of love. He is absolute in love and created to share that love. If you were absolute, wouldn’t you want to share?
Same concept as my original post but different words. Creating to share love = unselfish reason.

No. God needs nothing but Himself. I wish I could elaborate, but I can’t right now; I’ll look into it.

Well… it’s a long post by my standards

Good and evil are good and evil from the subjective point of view, from man’s point of view. God alone is neither good, nor bad. He only is.

God took a risk when He created man, He gave him free will. And things had an order when God created them, they were good, they could admire His other creations and praise Him. Man, with his free will, had chosen not to follow God’s Word, the order He has established, therefor man had fallen from his place in Eden. From his own free will. That is evil, the … deformation of good. So it is not God who created evil, but man. And yes, God did create The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. And how evil means not listening to His word, He couldn’t have been evil. At most He had forseen a posibility of evil. That is how i see it.

Yes… Loving something implies a second thing, person or whatever. Even the self. But being love doesn’t imply any second. And that is how God is seen. And I think it is somehow improper to say that God loves… God is love means more than that.

Yes, He did create them out of nothing. That is what creation is after all. And the purpose is not to make them love, but to make them rejoice with Him. Love is implied… Hmm… Somehow equivalent…

Being bored involves time… And God is beyond time… :unamused: And as for the creatures that would have to kill to survive, that happened after man has fallen from Eden, it was a consequence of introducing evil.

They are all faces of love. Be it natural love, be it perverted love.

Yes. And that’s why you were created. To know love, to know happiness.

He didn’t pity anything. He created from love.

This was said before, but you don’t want to understand. He created the universe from love.

I think I’m not getting the point of this question… Could you be more specific, Clementine?

On the contrary, Clementine… He couldn’t have been selfish, because there was nothing and noone else. Selfish you can be only among others.

Even if you consider God a character in a story, try to get the big picture.
I’m waiting for new questions :wink:

Wow… :slight_smile: I guess someone posted faster than I did :slight_smile:

Haha, yeah I beat you to it, h2o. I think you answered much better than I, though. In fact I was just signing on to appologize for making such lousy answers. I am; however, on the verge of a mental and emotional burnout, so that might give some excuse for my sub-par answers.

Wow, thanks… i wasn’t expecting so many answers.

Well, i wrote a huge reply which unfortunately, i left at my pc at home. I will post it tomorrow if i remember. But for now…

All the answers seem magical for me. Like a Harry Potter film when in the end everything can be explained by magic. God created everything from love and before there was nothing. I there is no proof of that… and doesn’t matter how manu questions i ask you will still give me the fact that he is something that we can’t explain, something out of ‘magic’ with magical powers. The bible was written and re written and re written… so long ago at a time when man couldn’t explain why they were what they were… when they began thinking about their own existance, question why they could talk and create while other animals couldn’t… they needed answers and till today, after all that science brought to us, we still haven’t got all the answers but we are getting there. Obviously is more acetable for the brain to say it’s ‘magic’… someone created us. Why? Because men only knew creation as a form of progress. Then, came evolution, and astronomy and answers about the universe, and more questions about it… and there will come more questions and more answers, and probably never stop. God and the creation of the world was the only way people could explain the world… it changed with time and religions disappeard and new religions appeard. All with new faces, with new interests… political, economic.
I see all religions as a way ancient people found to explain who they were. Now there is no need of that, we have other answers.
I stick to other answers, you stick to the former. I am not a creation of God because there isn’t a God, he is a character of an ancient story. You are because you believe he was real, that he is real. Am not part of this ‘reality’, am part of another ‘reality’. One of us is right… or not… maybe we are both wrong and the Muslims are right, or maybe the Buddhists, or even the Xintuists…or maybe we were create by aliens. If the latter, we will know one day, if not then we will never know.
I respect that people believe in God, and i see why they do, but i don’t, and i don’t people to say I was a creation of him, because i am not and i don’t want to be a character of a stoty it’s not real TO ME.
If one day, anyone can answer me with proof with more than just mystical and magical explanation that there was God, then i will change my mind, for i look only for the truth.

All my respect…

If you really want to learn about God I HIGHLY recomend buying the Summa Theologica by St. Thomas Aquinas. For a more reader-friendly version, pick up the Summa of the Summa. It is annotated with foot notes by Peter Kreeft. When I read it I had no backing in any type of philosophy but the footnotes really helped me understand it all.

Whatever insight h2o and I might give you here is nothing compared to the clarity of St. Thomas. Whatever we have shown you will be 100,000,000 times more in that book.

Yes, buy it. You won’t be able to read it all if you borrow from the library, and it is a nifty reference. You’ll be glad you bought it even if you choose to not agree with what is written.

If you are considering Him as a character in a book, then don’t try and assign Him your characteristics. You don’t do that in any other book, do you? You don’t change what the author says about characters, do you? If you’re taking Him as a character, then treat Him as a character. I really hate to say this, but don’t think so much!!! :wink:

I need to take a shower after that thinking comment

Qz,

I feel your frustration as I have been there. I just figure if you can’t beat them, join them. Just kidding, but it is hard to argue with someone who doesn’t know what you are talking about. Know what I mean? When you are used to arguing theology with fellow Christians and then you start making the same points to an atheist, you run into problems. Also, when in doubt, say ‘For His Glory’.

Assuming that there is a God:

First of all, you must quit thinking like God is a person. God is the source of life, therefore everything that is good is relative to God, including love.

This makes no sense, so I am skipping this one. But scripturally, it never says that God did not create other universes and other beings as well.

Because He did not just create creatures so that He could love them. Come on, He’s God, give Him at least the credit that He would develop a better plan than that. He created them so that His creatures could please Him and bring Him glory. All things were for God’s glory to bring Him pleasure.

Again, God is the source of life, therefore everything that is good is relative to God. Everything that is bad is relative God’s goodness. So all emotions are relative to what? God’s goodness.

Come on. Don’t you create a sandwich so that you can eat it? So why can’t God create something so that He can love it?

God would have to create something pitiful if he were to have pity on it? So why would he do that? God feels no pity.

For His glory. His creation was a reflection of his Glory. He wanted others to know His glory.

God is not a person, therefore He does not think and He has no ideas. He just does what He does b/c He does. We cannot know the intentions of a being such as God unless we were omniscient, like He is. Anyways the answer to these kinds of questions is ‘For His Glory’.

No, complete beings cannot be lonely.

Well, of course. How could He not be? If He is the greatest being imaginable, He has no choice but to be selfish. Nothing wrong with that, right?

So what is “Glory”?

Glory: Praise, honor, admiration, or distinction, accorded by common consent to a person or thing; high reputation; honorable fame; renown.

2Cr 4:15 For all things are for your sakes, so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God.

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Well, there you go, there’s my sermon for the day. I had to pull out some John Piper for a few of those.

So back to my question, I’ll keep it simple. If God’s love is unconditional, why is there a hell? Is it unconditional except on one condition? You skipped it last time. Any ideas?

I challenge you guys to take a step out of your Christian skin and take an atheistic perspective for a moment. Suspend your beliefs for a few minutes.

Why would God create someone only to play games with them? Does He expect everybody to know which religion to choose? Does everybody have to be extra smart to know that Christianity is the right choice? Then why did he create some people to be stupid?

If it is not a matter of smarts, then what about the people that were born in the middle east in a city where they would have no chance of taking a Christian perspective?

Why does he make everything so confusing? Is He trying to trick us? Why is He so mysterious?

If He loves us, why do some people get unfair advantages? Paul was a pretty faithful guy, right? I would be too if God spoke to me.

Quit hiding all of those questions you have tucked back in your closet. If your right, then what are you afraid of? Alright, well don’t reply to all of those questions. Just think about them. I could make up answers for those too if I wanted to.

Just want you to remember that we do have reasons for our doubts.

Qzxtvbzr

But I can’t question a book and get replies from it. It doesn’t work for me then.

Qzxtvbzr

I’ll try looking in a library and read a bit, if I get annoyed I stop it… if not I get it from a bookshop

Qzxtvbzr

The bibles said he created man out of his own image

Qzxtvbzr

Yes I do. If you don’t empathize with the character, if it has nothing that you can relate to yourself, then you will find the book horrible.

Qzxtvbzr

No, but there is your perception of it, your creativity. But books normally have 1 author, and you have to agree that this is not the case with the bible. It was re written so many times, and translated and interpreted over thousand years… you can’t even be sure that what you are reading is what it was written in the 1st place.

Qzxtvbzr

:open_mouth: Sorry, but I’ve been doing it for about decades… I can’t have control of it.

Skeptic

You assume too much for a person who read no more than a few posts of what other people think.

Skeptic

Putting aside that the bible says God created man as an image of himself, I will continue…
You are stating something that you can’t prove. If I am to accept a being which doesn’t live, for there wasn’t life yet, is not flesh, has one feeling, which is love (but this love can create other feelings) and the power to create the universe… to create everything… and nothing existing before him… Nothing… can you picture a non-physical thing not existing, but still existing, and creating in the middle of… let me see… nothing? This is utterly nonsense… is illogical, irrational and fantastical. I would be the same thing that believing in… The Lord of the Rings.

Skeptic

No… I don’t say ‘Sandwich, you shall exist from …NOW!’… and it does. If there isn’t a cow, there is no milk… if there is no milk there is no way I can have cheese… and if there are no seeds I can’t grow them to have a bread.

Skeptic

Oh dear… this is like discussing astronomy… and thinking about the end of the universe at some point, or to think ‘to where is it expanding?’… Can you think of the ‘nothingness’? Show me the ‘nothing’ and I believe in your story.

Skeptic

Yes, I agree… so we come to this… why discuss it at all?
If all the answers are the same… there is no proof… and again… it all about faith… which doesn’t make God existent.

Anyway… what’s the question again?

Good question. Actually, I think this is one of the most misunderstood facts about God. God created man out of His own image, which means man has free will. Even God respects man’s free will, He can’t impose Heaven to one who chooses Hell. And basically, Hell is forgeting about who God really is.
As for the red questions, they find their answers in the above, somehow.

Right, he respects so much man’s free will that if you don’t obey, you are doomed to hell. According to St Paul, we already are.

How many choices… do what I say and go to heaven, don’t and go to hell… very free indeed.

Cle,

I am very careful when I make assumptions. I only assumed that you did not understand theological terms, as you do not reply with theological terms. You also replied with ‘All the answers seem magical for me. Like a Harry Potter film when in the end everything can be explained by magic.’ That’s just not a theological response. Know what I mean? However, I meant no disrespect and I am not implying that you don’t know anything about Christianity, just not theology. (Of course maybe you do and I assumed wrong.)

‘Image’ not ‘Copy’. This implies that God created man with some characteristics of his own.

Who said I was trying to prove anything? I am just saying theoretically from a biblical perspective. As far as I am concerned, the bible has more holes than 500 lbs. of swiss cheese.

Remember though, God is the source of all things. So in a sense God is the cow. Interesting, I’ve never thought of God as a cow before.

To h2o:

Oh now I see. Everything is clearer now. So all this time I just misunderstood and really we have free will, so all I have to do is choose to go to heaven and choose not to go to hell. It all seems so easy. Wait a sec!?!!? What am I saying? You had me going there for a sec. :unamused: Have you taken brainwashing 101? cuz you are good! (No disrespect intended. I’m just kidding you. :wink:)

So to the “in God’s image” subject, like I told cle, it says image, not copy. If we were copy’s then we would be gods too. and there is only room enough for one infinite God. (I’ll explain this further if we decide to discuss “free will” further.)

Alright, so just remember, before you make claims, you must be able to back them up. If you are wanting to have a ‘free will’ debate, I’m all for it, but you must be willing to keep an open mind. I’m willing to debate both scriptural evidence of ‘free will’ or scientific evidence of ‘free will’. Take your pick. I’m willing to keep an open mind as well, but I doubt that you have an argument that I haven’t already heard.

What sides do you take on the “free will” topic, Qzxtvbzr and Clementine?

peace and love,

Jason

Something put forth in the Summa Theologica [I,3,3] is that Whether God is the Same As His Essence or Nature?

St. Thomas answers:

[I,3,4]