As a Muslim I have been troubled by the disparity between the repressiveness of many Islamic regimes, and the actual religious doctrine which spawns these regimes.
Understandably there has been a widespread negative reaction to Islam and the Islamic world in the aftermath of sept 11. We have seen pictures of subjugated women in their “portable tents,” (the Daily Mail - who else?) and read about legions of Muslim young’uns around the world talking crap about how Bin Laden is a great saviour. And whatever apologists say, quite a bit of the criticism of Islamic states is justified - in Saudi, women aren’t allowed to drive for chrissakes!
Yet I have read academic translations of bits of the Koran about contentious issues and found a reality which is actually incredibly liberal (believe me, I was as surprised as you are). This is no bible for woman-bashers; and in fact some of the rights it gives women anticipate women’s lib movements in the west by some 1400 odd years. As for the old “portable tent,” the only reference I could find to it was a passing comment, and it certainly did not say that it was obligatory. Yet many Islamic leaders see - in general terms - the oppression of women as a central tenet of Islam. I simply can’t understand how they justify themselves.
Also, as in the Bible, tolerance of other religions is preached, and suicide along with the killing of civilians is disallowed, which means that the assortment of suicide bombers in Israel and the kamikaze-style attackers of the US are actually breaking the rules of their “beloved” religion. Is this not the epitome of hypocrisy?
So, the Koran is surprisingly liberal, some of the bits which we might raise an eyebrow at can be explained by the fact that it was written for a completely different culture 1400 years ago; yet modern Islam is perceived to be a religion of patriarchism, anti-semitism and general bigotry. I disagree, and blame these despicable trends - which are undoubtedly sweeping the Islamic world - on a regrettable cultural phenomenon.
I am interested in finding out the balance of general opinion on Islam. Do you guys see Islam as the heir apparent to Russia as a threat to world security? Or, like me, do you see it as a valid, peaceful philosophy which has been warped by power-hungry misanthropists as a means of exploitation?
i agree with you 100% jawaad, but however imperfect this new wave of fundamentalism is, it is loudly and unashamedly operating under the banner of islam. and it is a real threat to world security. monotheistic clashes are not just confined to the middle-east or observing sects in europe and africa. 6000 people have died in clashes between christian and muslim fundamentalists in some east indonesian islands in just 3 years. 'tis exploding in all places.
the problem that is faced, is whether the military west tries to understand and reach out to this enemy, which is met with no response (by many arab populations - filtered out of the media?), or whether it tries to reform these ‘archaic’ ‘undemocratic’ states such as iraq iran.
would a military effort to oust saddam hussein escalate the uprising in the arab world? do they see the west as their natural enemy, the antithesis to their way of life? if yes, which i suspect is their conditioning, then what do we do … ? … ? … ? …
i hope that was said in jest i really do. else i really hope you can back that comment up. otherwise, actually otherwise nothing aside from other, more experienced people will ridicule you quite severely
women shouldnt be able to drive because they don’t have the mental capacity to cope with such a demanding task… they should stick to thinking about knitting and fluffy little kittens…
I would just like to reply to what Jawaad said and his views on the ‘hijab’ or covering people wear. Firstly, it is clearly stated in the Quran that this must be worn and it is not just a ‘passing refernce’.
Many seem to call this covering up of women oppressive and a limitation on women’s liberty but I challenge that. It does, in fact, I believe, give them greater power. In the western world, we often see (well, actually all the time) women dressingly scantily. But why? In order to make themselves PHYSICALLY more attrasctive. That is the first problem. They are more concerned with how they look and that is what religion and Islam especially, is against. It doesn’t matter how attractive you are, it depends what is iside your heart and soul that shows what kind of a person you are.
In addition, when a man sees a woman dressed in the westrn state what is his first reaction? That she looks sexy. That is the second problem. Men’s image of women has deteriorated alarmingly afteer this liberalistaion of women. Men do not look upon women as ‘normal’ people but as an objecto f sexual desire. If this doesn’t degrade women, I don;t know what does.
Therefore, if womencover themselves up, they not only protect themeselves form the harmful stares of men, but they are also respected beacuse of their invisible qualities, like intelligence, sensitivity etc.
Another reason I have heard for women covering up is that they are then reserving their beauty for their husband alone and allowing him only to appreciate her beauty, as he would already appreciate her invisible qualities. The common man on the street’s first reaction to a woman would be how good looking she is. In a Muslim state, they are considered equal, or at least should be.
P.S. Coming onto the issue of woman driving. Theres hould be no problem in allowing woman to drive, have a vote etc. It is a mistake by those countries in preventing this from taking place
sarfaraz, there are so many things wrong with that i’m not even going to start. One question though, if a woman decided not to cover up, should she be punished? Or is it her choice.
And another thing, surely the solution to this all-pervading problem of ALL women out of hijab being treated as sex objects is to re-educate the man, instead of your solution.
I am interested in what you say about covering up, but I have looked at three different academic (as opposed to didactic) translations of the Koran, and none of them even refer to hijab. However they do say that women should ‘cover their charms’ if they want to free themselves of the leering you describe. You say that hijab is obligatory and that this is “clearly stated” in the Koran. Where? If you can back up what you say I will relent, but you have merely made a tired assertion: I will show you the translations if you want.
Also, men are told to embrace modesty in Islam, but it is far more common to hear Imams telling women to wear hijab than it is to hear them telling blokes to stop perving! In my belief, the leap from a recommendation of modesty to a demand to cover up is the product of years of conditioning under the duress of a society which is, and long has been, overwhelmingly patriarchal. But in any case, arguing over this one detail is petty: if you really want to understand the position of women in Islam better, I recommend you look at this page: mwlusa.org/welcome.html
You see, many of the misconceptions that abound about Islam arise from bad translations of the Koran by people with ulterior motives. I don’t know whether you want to believe in the status quo or get to the heart of a what is an endlessly rich philosophy…but the resources are there if you ever need them.
Sarfaraz…this is untrue; not all men hail from Homer Simpson country. I don’t know about you, but I certainly see women as “normal people” and I am able to appreciate their “invisible qualities” whatever the heck they might happen to be wearing. Also…the liberalisation of women has degraded men’s views of women, has it?! Sarfaraz…! In Victorian England, people were ostensibly obsessed with propriety and religion, and women were anything but liberalised, yet at least 1/3 of Victorian men frequented brothels. Do you think that they appreciated the “invisible qualities” of their hallowed prostitutes? Women’s liberty is desirable, fair, and necessary (and Islamic). If men have a problem with it, it is their own damn fault, and maybe men should be forced to traipse around in blindfolds, or something. I have seen Arab men in Saudi (a stone’s throw from Al-Haram) staring with ominous hunger at women in veils, and believe it or not, I have seen girls in Western clothes walk down the street in Greenford without hordes of panting men running after them. The problem arises when people take things to extremes, and this is what Islam forbids. Obviously, if a nubile young thing goes around as scantily clad as in your dystopian vision, men are going to think about one thing. But if people do things in moderation and everyone does their part, there isn’t a problem. Modesty = moderation, not unnecessary draconian measures.
Yes it is a mistake. A fatal, hypocritical, illiberal, chauvinistic, unIslamic mistake. We give it a cursory mention, but consider that 1400 years ago when Islam was born, women were suddenly afforded incredible and revolutionary freedoms equivalent to the 60s lib movement here (but you will note, Sarafarz, without the extremes). I think it is a sorry state of affairs when a force of rectitude for women becomes their oppressor. Agree?
Jawaad, you have not a clue about Islam, I would say you are merely trying to translate the Quran in the manner which would suit your liberal outlook. Have you not ever heard of the hadith. Study Islam, understand Islam, then come online and issue your Fatwas, it is a dangerous thing your doing, you are misleading people who have no knowledge of Islam, and that my brother is haram.
What makes you think the hadith has the answers? If the hadith and the qur’an are contradictory, what does that mean? You seem to be in need of backing your sources.
I would disagree with you here. But let us just pretend that this is true. Why do we subjugate women to the man’s rules rather than let them make their own decisions? Are women not capable? This is the man’s problem, not the woman’s problem. The Qur’an very distinctly portrays women’s rights. If the Hadith says differently then wouldn’t you agree that the Qur’an is the higher authority?
To say the hadith and the Quran would in anyway contradict eachother is absurd, one suplements the other, the Hadith suplements the Quran. Without doubt the Quran is the higher authority but the two go hand in hand. The problem I have and this is a very real issue we as Muslims have to address is when all sorts of people, without any sort of authority, start issuing fatwas or their own personnal interpretations on key issues. The immeadiate condemnation of Jawaad in his first post of suicide bombers in Israel is absolutely crazy, who the hell is he to sit back and judge the plight of the Palestinian people and at the same time have the audacity to claim that when a Palestinian kills himself he is in fact breaking the rules of his own religion. Somebody tell me this boy is joking. The ‘epitome of hypocirsy’ is that what you call the plight of the Palestinian people ?
I would love to continue this discussion with you. It is very interesting. Why don’t you register a screenname and join the board? It only takes two or three minutes.
Have you ever checked? Could I consider this a challenge to expose contradictions?
By who’s authority can fatwas be determined? Who is the final authority in interpretting Shari’a? I would agree though. This is a problem in every religion.
Again, I must agree. I see no reason to believe that the suicide bombers were breaking the rules of the religion. According to the Hadith, they were rightly justified in their actions (and glorified, if I might add). There are 199 references to Jihad in the Hadith. Muhammed himself engaged in 78 battles, of which just one (the Battle of Ditch) was defensive.
I am interested as to your beliefs on Jihad in relation to today’s society? Dar al-Islam vs. Dar al-harb?
Also, what are your thoughts on Bin Laden? Do you support him in his actions? Might he be the Messiah?
The challenge is there for you to take up, expose if you can a clear and blatant contradiction between the Qu’ran and the hadith.
The answer to your second question is not so clear, who has the right to issue a fatwa, the simple answer learned men, scholars, who might they be is in turn up for debate, however that was not the focus of my point, I can certainly tell you the people who are not entitled to issue fatwas and those are the ones who speak out of ignorance or out of ulterior motives. Its very dangerous to try and fit Islamic ideologies around those of Western ones, because sometimes they just don’t fit. Fact.
How I see Jihad in today’s society is simple, its misunderstood. For the Muslims in the US and UK etc our Jihad is the struggle to educate, to be heard, to make an impact in a positive way in the society we live in which in turn may shape policies. For Muslims in Palestine and Chechnya etc, their Jihad is to rise up and fight their oppressors. We as Muslims belong to an Ummah, we suffer together, we succeed together, we are like a body. The Muslims in the North, should support the Muslims in the South, the Muslims in the East should support the Muslims in the West and vice versa.
Bin Laden is a cloudy subject simply because of the lack of facts about him. I would have hailed him as a great man in the seventies and eighties for succesfully booting out the USSR, but if and it is only an IF, he was responsible for Sept 11 and the attacks in Bali and Kenya then I can only condemn his actions, a Messiah no way, he has succeded in giving the Kafir a feeble excuse for the explotation and oppression of Muslims around the world, if the allegations against him are true.
The challenge is there for you to take up, expose if you can a clear and blatant contradiction between the Qu’ran and the hadith.
The answer to your second question is not so clear, who has the right to issue a fatwa, the simple answer learned men, scholars, who might they be is in turn up for debate, however that was not the focus of my point, I can certainly tell you the people who are not entitled to issue fatwas and those are the ones who speak out of ignorance or out of ulterior motives. Its very dangerous to try and fit Islamic ideologies around those of Western ones, because sometimes they just don’t fit. Fact.
How I see Jihad in today’s society is simple, its misunderstood. For the Muslims in the US and UK etc our Jihad is the struggle to educate, to be heard, to make an impact in a positive way in the society we live in which in turn may shape policies. For Muslims in Palestine and Chechnya etc, their Jihad is to rise up and fight their oppressors. We as Muslims belong to an Ummah, we suffer together, we succeed together, we are like a body. The Muslims in the North, should support the Muslims in the South, the Muslims in the East should support the Muslims in the West and vice versa.
Bin Laden is a cloudy subject simply because of the lack of facts about him. I would have hailed him as a great man in the seventies and eighties for succesfully booting out the USSR, but if and it is only an IF, he was responsible for Sept 11 and the attacks in Bali and Kenya then I can only condemn his actions, a Messiah no way, he has succeded in giving the Kafir a feeble excuse for the explotation and oppression of Muslims around the world, if the allegations against him are true.
