Wholeness

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Re: Wholeness

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:52 pm

felix dakat wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Wholeness, the goal of individuation, is, like all ideals, never fully achieved. It is the fully explored territory, the walled garden. But, the territory is never fully explored. There's a serpent in every garden.

But the serpent is part of you.
You will not be whole until you understand the serpent, where it is coming from, why it exists.

Once you know this, your garden will no long require fencing and you will be whole.

That's true. But it's true paradoxically. The serpent within you is unknown--the unconscious. The serpent is ultimately the dragon of chaos, the ouroboros the self-consuming serpent who represents the union of matter and spirit, being-in-itself and nothingness, tohu and bohu, the pleroma and the possibility of transformation. It's where everything comes from and where everything returns. To know that is to know the unknowable. Or so it seems to me.

I like that answer.

It connects to what I was going to write first, lazily, to your first claim, namely that Crowley would disagree, and refer you to the concept of Ipsissimus.
Now you created an actually viable content for me to do that, by this evocative phrase; "to know the unknowable".

So here's the concept, or one take on it:

Ipsissimus
10° = 1□

Ipsissimus. — Is beyond all this and beyond all comprehension of those of lower degrees.

The Grade of Ipsissimus is not to be described fully; but its opening is indicated in Liber I vel Magi.
There is also an account in a certain secret document to be published when propriety permits. Here it is only said this: The Ipsissimus is wholly free from all limitations soever, existing in the nature of all things without discriminations of quantity or quality between them. He has identified Being and not-Being and Becoming, action and non-action and tendency to action, with all other such triplicities, not distinguishing between them in respect of any conditions, or between any one thing and any other thing as to whether it is with or without conditions.
He is sworn to accept this Grade in the presence of a witness, and to express its nature in word and deed, but to withdraw Himself at once within the veils of his natural manifestation as a man, and to keep silence during his human life as to the fact of his attainment, even to the other members of the Order.
The Ipsissimus is pre-eminently the Master of all modes of existence; that is, his being is entirely free from internal or external necessity. His work is to destroy all tendencies to construct or to cancel such necessities. He is the Master of the Law of Unsubstantiality (Anatta).
The Ipsissimus has no relation as such with any Being: He has no will in any direction, and no Consciousness of any kind involving duality, for in Him all is accomplished; as it is written "beyond the Word and the Fool, yea, beyond the Word and the Fool".
[One Star in Sight sub figurâ CDLXXXIX]

http://www.tarrdaniel.com/documents/The ... simus.html

In this tradition, being is seen to emerge from the boundless no-thingness, and the Ipsissimus has acquired access to that source and dwells there with a consciousness that is no longer strictly "his" - presenting all manner of paradox, of course, as enlightenment would to the not-yet-enlightened.

I do not mean for this to sway about the argument, but to point you to an interesting pocket of theory on the Self and its development. You may know Crowley as "the Beast" and related titles but really he was the closest to a prophet we've had in recent centuries, I find. He covers large parts of the field that Jung does not - where Jung only points towards, as Jung must remain scientist, whereas Crowley's task was, in a sense, to simply go where no man had gone before, regardless of consequence. Jung was very conscientious, otherwise his work would have been valueless. For Crowley its the opposite, he needed to be completely rueckstichtlos. He stumbles around a great deal but also burst through seemingly solid walls and he gets truly inside the core of the psyche. Where, of course, it is rather chaotic, for lack of a better term; and what term is better than the delicious word Chaos?

Anyway. Good answer.

PS
I will link you to one of his most Chaotic book, "The Book of Lies"; You can see how he required to make such a tremendous mess of the mind, in order to cross over to the being of that Ouroboros.
https://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/lib333.htm

mr Crowley wrote: The Ante Primal Triad which is
NOT-GOD
Nothing is.
Nothing Becomes.
Nothing is not.

The First Triad which is GOD
I AM.
I utter The Word.
I hear The Word.

The Abyss
The Word is broken up.
There is Knowledge.
Knowledge is Relation.
These fragments are Creation.
The broken manifests Light.

The Second Triad which is GOD
GOD the Father and Mother is concealed in Genera-
tion.
GOD is concealed in the whirling energy of Nature.
GOD is manifest in gathering: harmony: considera-
tion: the Mirror of the Sun and of the Heart.

The Third Triad
Bearing: preparing.
Wavering: flowing: flashing.
Stability: begetting.

The Tenth Emanation
The world.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:53 pm

Don't know much about Crowley. I have always seen him as an unattractive buffoon. Shrug. Doubtless he identified with chaos and wished to portray himself as pure malevolence. He succeeded in repulsing me. Lol.

Ipsissimus= Lao Tsu-the archetypal Tao master. In the latter piece you shared Crowley goes ontological.

Jung himself has a trickster/shyster side. His theory connecting the mandala to wholeness is most relevant to this thread. Yet, I still find his mandala/UFO hypothesis ludicrous.

Here is Jung as Basilides the Gnostic at his most ontological for comparison:

THE SEVEN SERMONS TO THE DEAD
WRITTEN BY BASILIDES IN ALEXANDRIA,
THE CITY WHERE THE EAST
TOUCHETH THE WEST.
Sermo I
The dead came back from Jerusalem, where they found not what they sought. They prayed me let them in and besought my word, and thus I began my teaching.

Harken: I begin with nothingness. Nothingness is the same as fullness. In infinity full is no better than empty. Nothingness is both empty and full. As well might ye say anything else of nothingness, as for instance, white is it, or black, or again, it is not, or it is. A thing that is infinite and eternal hath no qualities, since it hath all qualities.

This nothingness or fullness we name the PLEROMA. Therein both thinking and being cease, since the eternal and infinite possess no qualities. In it no being is, for he then would be distinct from the pleroma, and would possess qualities which would distinguish him as something distinct from the pleroma.

In the pleroma there is nothing and everything. It is quite fruitless to think about the pleroma, for this would mean self-dissolution.

CREATURA is not in the pleroma, but in itself. The pleroma is both beginning and end of created beings. It pervadeth them, as the light of the sun everywhere pervadeth the air. Although the pleroma pervadeth altogether, yet hath created being no share thereof, just as a wholly transparent body becometh neither light nor dark through the light which pervadeth it. We are, however, the pleroma itself, for we are a part of the eternal and infinite. But we have no share thereof, as we are from the pleroma infinitely removed; not spiritually or temporally, but essentially, since we are distinguished from the pleroma in our essence as creatura, which is confined within time and space.

Yet because we are parts of the pleroma, the pleroma is also in us. Even in the smallest point is the pleroma endless, eternal, and entire, since small and great are qualities which are contained in it. It is that nothingness which is everywhere whole and continuous. Only figuratively, therefore, do I speak of created being as a part of the pleroma. Because, actually, the pleroma is nowhere divided, since it is nothingness. We are also the whole pleroma, because, figuratively, the pleroma is the smallest point (assumed only, not existing) in us and the boundless firmament about us. But wherefore, then, do we speak of the pleroma at all, since it is thus everything and nothing?

I speak of it to make a beginning somewhere, and also to free you from the delusion that somewhere, either without or within, there standeth something fixed, or in some way established, from the beginning. Every so-called fixed and certain thing is only relative. That alone is fixed and certain which is subject to change.

What is changeable, however, is creatura. Therefore is it the one thing which is fixed and certain; because it hath qualities: it is even quality itself.

The question ariseth: How did creatura originate? Created beings came to pass, not creatura; since created being is the very quality of the pleroma, as much as non-creation which is the eternal death. In all times and places is creation, in all times and places is death. The pleroma hath all, distinctiveness and non-distinctiveness.

Distinctiveness is creatura. It is distinct. Distinctiveness is its essence, and therefore it distinguisheth. Therefore man discriminateth because his nature is distinctiveness. Wherefore also he distinguisheth qualities of the pleroma which are not. He distinguisheth them out of his own nature. Therefore must he speak of qualities of the pleroma which are not.

What use, say ye, to speak of it? Saidst thou not thyself, there is no profit in thinking upon the pleroma?

That said I unto you, to free you from the delusion that we are able to think about the pleroma. When we distinguish qualities of the pleroma, we are speaking from the ground of our own distinctiveness and concerning our own distinctiveness. But we have said nothing concerning the pleroma. Concerning our own distinctiveness, however, it is needful to speak, whereby we may distinguish ourselves enough. Our very nature is distinctiveness. If we are not true to this nature we do not distinguish ourselves enough. Therefore must we make distinctions of qualities.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:28 pm

Hm okay.

I will spare you more unattractive buffoonery.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:57 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Hm okay.

I will spare you more unattractive buffoonery.


Aww. Sorry. I did not intend to offend you. I took a superficial look into Crowley 50 years ago and decided he wasn't my cup of meat to borrow a phrase from Dylan. How thoroughly malevolent was he? Is it true he tortured a cat when he was in his early teens? Psychopath? Anyway I don't hold my opinions to be sacrosanct. I understand he became benign in his latter years. Judge not lest ye be judged, somebody said.

What shall we do with our shadow? What do you think of the proposition that the way to set the world straight is by restraining the malevolence in our own hearts?
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:07 pm

Cup of meat or cup of mead?

I recommend you read a writer before you judge him Felix. Ive never in my life judged a writer based on what other writers say about him, and frankly I think that is only sane.
Yes, it offends me when people judge someone based on gossip.

I gave you a massively valuable resource to address your questions but you choose the silly gossipy ladies over the work of philosophy. :x

Oh fucking well, eh?

8)

But really. A waste not to read him, an absolute, colossal waste. Crowley's only sin was that he wasn't a spiritual slave. He knew people would judge him as evil for not being a spiritual slave. so he pre-emptively called himself "the most wicked man alive".
In the meantime, Christians were torturing people all over the planet. You don't care about that though. No christian ever takes responsibility for his faith. That is what Christianity is; absolution from responsibility. Big monotheistic sects are built that way, as is a certain currently popular race-ideologist subsect of slave-morality.
People want their happiness to be handed to them buy God, or The Man, or The Government.
Crowley was no such lazy bastard.
He was the noblest man of his time without any question.
Perhaps that is a good reason to stay away from him; your faith might not be able to withstand such display of integrity.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:38 pm

Okay you've got my attention and I am looking into your links. So what was with Crowley's claims to be the Beast and 666? It seems like that began as an oppositional defiant reaction against his childhood Plymouth Brethren indoctrination.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:08 pm

Good, think he will be worth your while. He gathered many paths to many treasure troves into his writings.

The story Ive heard is that his mother called him the Beast when he was small.

You could somewhat compare his stance on the Beast with Blake's stance on Satan, though obviously they're both too complex to take that very far. Both authors I mean.

Whatever else, Crowley stands at the threshold of a vast ancient world which comes to us mainly through him and the people around him - English aristocrats that spent their fortunes on gathering ancient magical knowledge at the beginning of the 20th century. Much was gained. For true understanding of his background, look into the Order of the Golden Dawn. The works of Israel Regardie are excellent. There is also a work by Regardie on his time spent with Crowley which Ive yet to read.

In any case I very much doubt there will ever be anyone who understands the Shadow aspect better than Crowley did - serving as it does in his work always the purpose of attaining the immaculate light.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:47 am

Humanity does not live on bread alone, not directly or nakedly in nature like the animals, but also on the body of existential propositions and beliefs it gleans from the mythological universe in which it is embedded.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:26 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Good, think he will be worth your while. He gathered many paths to many treasure troves into his writings.

The story Ive heard is that his mother called him the Beast when he was small.

You could somewhat compare his stance on the Beast with Blake's stance on Satan, though obviously they're both too complex to take that very far. Both authors I mean.

Whatever else, Crowley stands at the threshold of a vast ancient world which comes to us mainly through him and the people around him - English aristocrats that spent their fortunes on gathering ancient magical knowledge at the beginning of the 20th century. Much was gained. For true understanding of his background, look into the Order of the Golden Dawn. The works of Israel Regardie are excellent. There is also a work by Regardie on his time spent with Crowley which Ive yet to read.

In any case I very much doubt there will ever be anyone who understands the Shadow aspect better than Crowley did - serving as it does in his work always the purpose of attaining the immaculate light.

I am looking into your recommendations.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:41 pm

Blessings.jpg
Blessings.jpg (45.46 KiB) Viewed 373 times
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:27 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
Blessings.jpg


When I came to this image of Horus, the all-seeing eye of consciousness, on the thread, an owl outside my window hooted in the broad daylight of the afternoon.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:52 pm

Yes!!

Greetings to the owl, and to your, as they say "Holy Guardian Angel".
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:45 pm

"The ancient Masters didn’t try to educate the people, but kindly taught them to not-know." Tao 65

The abyss of not-knowing is infinite.

It is represented by the Uroboros the dragon of chaos.

It is the circle prior to the separation of Yin and Yang.

The one who separates is called the Logos or the Tao.

This is consciousness, the Light.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:07 am

"For the benefit of the roses, we water the thorns too."

Part of an I Ching reading I just did:
The I Ching is a superior divination method, far more consistent than tarot. Online, oracles based on random picks work perhaps even better than physically.

https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/reading ... e-i-ching/
https://cafeausoul.com/oracles/iching

A very dense philosophical tradition presents itself in the literary subtleties of the readings. Both my own experience and that of experienced magicians say that this is very reliable if you really need some insight into a situation. It is quite objective, and repeated readings within a short timeframe will be consistent with each other, if the concentration is held during the draw.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:38 pm

So much to learn, so little time.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:57 pm

The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:20 pm

I am spellbound by the presence of my own being.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:21 am

felix dakat wrote:I am spellbound by the presence of my own being.

Gobsmacked ... as they say.
God forgives. Nature doesn't.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:23 am

Fixed Cross wrote:"For the benefit of the roses, we water the thorns too."

Part of an I Ching reading I just did:
The I Ching is a superior divination method, far more consistent than tarot. Online, oracles based on random picks work perhaps even better than physically.

https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/reading ... e-i-ching/
https://cafeausoul.com/oracles/iching

A very dense philosophical tradition presents itself in the literary subtleties of the readings. Both my own experience and that of experienced magicians say that this is very reliable if you really need some insight into a situation. It is quite objective, and repeated readings within a short timeframe will be consistent with each other, if the concentration is held during the draw.

I'm hoping you can read the future, and can tell us who will win the November elections.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:18 pm

The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:36 pm

Being as such and logic were revealed to Parmenides by the goddess.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:06 am

felix dakat wrote:https://youtu.be/5xgq5L9qTNw

Please excuse me if I can't understand all this. I haven't been grabbed by the balls, as Peter claims is necessary. So I guess that's why the dead being more alive than we are, sounds spooky to me. I don't believe in ghosts.

"And we can't know the power of now," as Peter states, "unless we go back to the primordial past, so we can know where the power of now comes from," seems to me to not be living in the now, but spending time instead in the past, and not in the now, that none of us can escape from, unless we're dead.

But then, since he, and apparently Jung, claim the dead are more living than we are, maybe they know the power of now more than any of us, since the dead, or at least some of them, lived back then, and are in the now, even while dead ... as they're dead NOW.

And nothing, or no one, better be grabbing me by the balls, I don't care what spiritual primordial depths they come from. My balls are off limits, and have nothing to do with the power of now.

We can't live in the now, unless we change with it every nanosecond. We're not in the now if we hang onto it, or if we turn to any past, including the primordial one.

Jung will be gone in a generation precisely because he will be in the past, and not in the ever changing now, and is dead, and not more alive than us now ... sorry to say.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:40 pm

Aware-ness wrote:
felix dakat wrote:https://youtu.be/5xgq5L9qTNw

Please excuse me if I can't understand all this. I haven't been grabbed by the balls, as Peter claims is necessary. So I guess that's why the dead being more alive than we are, sounds spooky to me. I don't believe in ghosts.

"And we can't know the power of now," as Peter states, "unless we go back to the primordial past, so we can know where the power of now comes from," seems to me to not be living in the now, but spending time instead in the past, and not in the now, that none of us can escape from, unless we're dead.

But then, since he, and apparently Jung, claim the dead are more living than we are, maybe they know the power of now more than any of us, since the dead, or at least some of them, lived back then, and are in the now, even while dead ... as they're dead NOW.

And nothing, or no one, better be grabbing me by the balls, I don't care what spiritual primordial depths they come from. My balls are off limits, and have nothing to do with the power of now.

We can't live in the now, unless we change with it every nanosecond. We're not in the now if we hang onto it, or if we turn to any past, including the primordial one.

Jung will be gone in a generation precisely because he will be in the past, and not in the ever changing now, and is dead, and not more alive than us now ... sorry to say.


Lol. You are your presuppositions. Jung is more alive to me than he ever was before.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:31 pm

felix dakat wrote:
Aware-ness wrote:
felix dakat wrote:https://youtu.be/5xgq5L9qTNw

Please excuse me if I can't understand all this. I haven't been grabbed by the balls, as Peter claims is necessary. So I guess that's why the dead being more alive than we are, sounds spooky to me. I don't believe in ghosts.

"And we can't know the power of now," as Peter states, "unless we go back to the primordial past, so we can know where the power of now comes from," seems to me to not be living in the now, but spending time instead in the past, and not in the now, that none of us can escape from, unless we're dead.

But then, since he, and apparently Jung, claim the dead are more living than we are, maybe they know the power of now more than any of us, since the dead, or at least some of them, lived back then, and are in the now, even while dead ... as they're dead NOW.

And nothing, or no one, better be grabbing me by the balls, I don't care what spiritual primordial depths they come from. My balls are off limits, and have nothing to do with the power of now.

We can't live in the now, unless we change with it every nanosecond. We're not in the now if we hang onto it, or if we turn to any past, including the primordial one.

Jung will be gone in a generation precisely because he will be in the past, and not in the ever changing now, and is dead, and not more alive than us now ... sorry to say.


Lol. You are your presuppositions. Jung is more alive to me than he ever was before.

But isn't that just literary Jung? Or maybe you're conjuring him :

The Seventh Book of Moses
https://www.amazon.com/Seventh-Book-Moses-Johann-Schiebel-ebook/dp/B0014M0Q20
God forgives. Nature doesn't.
"Praying to an otherworldly God is like kissing thru glass." - Paul West
There's a serpent in every paradise.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:20 pm

Literature that doesn't evoke the spirit is nothing but dead letters.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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