Mandatory Vaccination

Discussion of the recent unfolding of history.

ILP, once a Covid-19 vaccination appears, should everyone be forced to get it?

Absolutely
5
36%
Only if the worst case scenario transpires and it's been scientifically proven millions upon millions will die if we don't.
0
No votes
Only if opinion polls demonstrate most people are in favor of it.
0
No votes
Government shouldn't force anyone to get it, but it should forcibly quarantine anyone who hasn't had it in their homes until this whole thing clears up.
2
14%
No way, never.
7
50%
 
Total votes : 14

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby MagsJ » Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:38 pm

Someone I know works in child health-care services, and she’s very worried about a mandatory vaccine being issued.. she has seen kids over the years, and obviously seen the effects that vaccinations have had on them and their physiological state, over these years.. a main one being childhood obesity.

Phyllo is free to doubt.. he can be a doubting Phyllo all he wants. :)
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ


Nobilis Est Ira Leonis | Om Surya Devaay namah | Manus justa nardus
User avatar
MagsJ
The Londonist: a chic geek
 
Posts: 19650
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: London, NC1 … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … …Surya.. the sun

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby phyllo » Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:42 pm

I understand wanting more evidence, but in responding to Mags it is as if she is per se silly to even consider it.
I responded to MagsJ in a way that I thought would lead her away from "experts on the other side", plots and conspiracies and towards a more positive view of people in general and of vaccines in particular.

But feel free to imagine whatever motivations and intentions that you think I have.

And keep feeding the fears.
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11864
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby MagsJ » Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:52 pm

Which leads me back to the very simple question of.. why is there toxic additives in vaccinations and all meds in general? especially for babies.. why?

If the industry cannot answer that question to those posing it, then they have no business issuing anything to anyone.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ


Nobilis Est Ira Leonis | Om Surya Devaay namah | Manus justa nardus
User avatar
MagsJ
The Londonist: a chic geek
 
Posts: 19650
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: London, NC1 … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … …Surya.. the sun

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby promethean75 » Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:28 am

The 14th Amendment asserts that no state shall make or enforce any law abridging the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States or deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of the law[1]. The Supreme Court recognizes a 14th-Amendment guaranty of substantive due process that protects US residents against arbitrary legislative actions; this constitutional guarantee requires that legislation not be unreasonable, arbitrary, or capricious and that it have a substantial relation to the legislative objective [2]. Essentially, though, this provision demands only minimal scrutiny or rational review of the enacted legislation; the law need only be rationally related to a legitimate government purpose to be declared constitutional. Further, the Supreme Court has recognized each state’s “police power,” which gives the state authority to enact health laws of every description, including quarantine and vaccination laws, to protect its citizens [2].

In 1905 the Supreme Court addressed mandatory vaccinations in regard to smallpox in Jacobson v Massachusetts [2]. There the Court ruled that the police power of a state absolutely included reasonable regulations established by legislature to protect public health and safety [2]. Such regulations do not violate the 14th Amendment right to liberty because they fall within the many restraints to which every person is necessarily subjected for the common good [3]. Real liberty for all cannot exist if each individual is allowed to act without regard to the injury that his or her actions might cause others; liberty is constrained by law. The Court went on to determine in Jacobson that a state may require vaccination if the board of health deems it necessary for public health or safety [4].


https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/ar ... ic/2006-04
promethean75
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2737
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:10 pm

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:55 am

phyllo wrote:
I understand wanting more evidence, but in responding to Mags it is as if she is per se silly to even consider it.
I responded to MagsJ in a way that I thought would lead her away from "experts on the other side", plots and conspiracies and towards a more positive view of people in general and of vaccines in particular.
I looked at the interactions again, and you were much more directly informational, from your perspective and the mocking was more in relation to others. If she hasn't read the other posts then perhaps she might not have gotten the message that she was just being silly.

You said what you thought was the case.....
based on your intuition of what governments or corporations are capable of, in the relevant cases today.
At one point you wrote:
You're aware of your expertise and I'm aware of my ignorance.
You said to Gloominary, while feeling confident enough in your certainty that whatever number of people it would take to either intentionally or via lack of concern about people are not possibly present. You know that people are not like that in enough numbers.
But feel free to imagine whatever motivations and intentions that you think I have.
Well, it was in the context of your attitude elsewhere. I didn't hallucinate the attitude, which is here for Mags to see, since it surrounds your posts to her. It wasn't your motivations and intentions, it was the attitude.

And keep feeding the fears
Everyone is concerned. You have concerns that she will believe things that are not the case. Other people have concerns that people will. You base your sense on your certainty - as presented in a number of posts - that we are not surrounded by people who would jeopardize the health of large numbers of people. That there can't be enough. I know you know there are some people who would which I why I put in the idea of number. You present you view without qualitification and mock some of the people who present an alternative view. I don't see you as 'aware of your ignorance' in contrast with others. You just have reached different conclusions based on your intuition.

To take you up on the request to see anti-vaccine information presented by experts, I started looking, but as promised the various digital giants are now censoring that stuff. It is much harder to find online than it was the last time I got into this discussion, years ago. But we can start on a small scale with what Magjs recently asked: athe additives. Why are there additives that a number of scientists and doctors are worried about in vaccines

however

these were taken out for the German government in relation to the swine flu. Why would it be considered important to give the government a clean vaccine if the critics of vaccines are incorrect about additives, especially mercury and adjuvants? Why when point out that putting mercury in a vaccine would be dangerous do the defenders of the practice say the amount is less than occurs in certain foods, without mentioning that thimersol (the form Mercury is in in vaccines) crosses the blood brain barrier as opposed to what 'regular' mercury, say in food, does.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31841767

In total, these studies indicate that ethylmercury-containing compounds and Thimerosal readily cross the BBB, convert, for the most part, to highly toxic inorganic mercury-containing compounds, which significantly and persistently bind to tissues in the brain, even in the absence of concurrent detectable blood mercury levels.


Jesus, even trying to get some basic information is so much harder. If I put in the words I remember from the debates, I ONLY get pro-vaccine information now. In fact I only get generalized pro information, which means that chemicals that are controversial are much harder for me to find, since I can't remember the names, but would recognize them in the texts of critics and then could look up the research. Censorship, which many will consider good, has been vastly more effective.

In the past I could easily find texts written by scientists and doctors who were critics then see what scientific research actually said about their concerns. Now that is much harder to do.

Which means I would have to work very hard to give a more complete view of even this section of the debate.

There are a number of issues to keep in mind. Corporate negligence and a rush to get money - vast sums of money - WITH NO POssilbe liability in many places, does not need evil Nazis or evil Soviet scientists in any large numbers. The companies are not liable, are capable of rapidly earning billions of dollars. could that possibly lead to shoddy work? Hm.

Then there is the generalized experimental nature of many vaccines in large part due to additives. All of this is not getting remotely near conspiracies, beyond the kind of stuff we know corporations and even Western governments can get up to.

If you're actually interested there are books available both via libraries and amazon and book stores. At least the censorship hasn't gotten that far yet. Probably one could contact the Kennedy who is anti-vaccine and his staff could connect you to the science and the specific doctors and scientists who are critical.

I notice the thigns you do not respond to in my posts. Here you just focus on my talking about what you are doing, and then have a comeback aimed at me. You don't seem to know much about the issue, as you say you know you are ignorant, which is fine, but you sure have a strong intuition that there couldn't possibly be problems or we would know about it.

Myself, I am skeptical about vaccines, though the degree varies radically in relation to what kind of vaccine (how long it was developed who developed it, what company has made it, what disease it is preventing and so on) There are vast differences in protocols, threats, risks, and how much we know). I also see power players who push for vaccinations often give indications elsewhere in their political lives that they have agendas aimed at 'regular people' that make me very skeptical they are concerned about us. I personally doubt that large numbers would be killed by a vaccine - though one companies that still gets huge government contracts did sent a shipment that accidentally we hope had vacccines with both live virus - iow you get the disease if you are injected - AND the common cold virus in there. IOW you have an effective bioweapon. In general however what I see is a number of ways our general health is being compromised due to the power and perhaps complicity of government and industry. GM foods, nano tech, wifi and vaccines are big contributors and we are going to have a very hard time checking. They are in a big hurry and are not going responsible testing or even just ignoring the testing on these things. I suspect at the vaccines make us weaker in general - now thinking of the react to current outbreak disease vaccines. I doubt there are large numbers of scientists who are trying to do anything bad. Some small percentage who don't care much about 'side effects' but this in no way at all prevents a very small number of people, who have incredibly control of the media, to use these scientists. There are paradigmatic issues involved also.

But yeah, things like Big Pharma manipulating people via the media could never lead to widespread and systematic abuse of psychotropics, for example. That just can't happen, because we are not surrouded by evil people. No there has been no pathologization of normal emotions and the suppress of emotions in the name of 'mental health' for example because this is profitable. Couldn't happen. You couldn't get a coalition of Western nations to go to war over bogus evidence and end up killing more americans than were killed in 9/11 plus all the Iraqis who died and are still dying from anything like no infrastructre to 'side effects' of radioactive arms to....No, there are enough evil people around us to make up shit to get, what was it 20 nations to go to war. That can't happen. And Nixon and Kissisger didn't decide to start illegal wars in Laos and CAmbodia (breaking both national and international laws) killing hundreds of thousands of people. Since they dropped more munitions than all of the bombs in terms of power dropped in WW2 on Cambodia alone, there must have been a few people involved. And though it really is amazing what a few bad intentioned people can get others to do, I believe you are right. We are not surrounded by evil people. And yet great evils and great negligence are possible despite your certainty in your intuition, rather than the idealized sense of your own careful self-appraisal of your own ignorance might indicate.

As far as spreading fear, gosh, I don't think what and how I write puts me in the top ten categories right now of fear mongering. When I told people I had Corora it was like I'd said I had stage 4 cancer, even after I explained I have no health issues that should make me particularly vulnerable. We all have conerns.

A source of many critical resources here....

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/

you can search by disease, country....

A lot of things are not being reported. And let me tell you the internet has changed in the last year or so. Probably fine to people who trust, in general, corporations and governments. Not really a free press, however, especially coupled with the consolidation of media in a few large corporations.
Last edited by Karpel Tunnel on Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Karpel Tunnel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2985
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Gloominary » Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:19 pm

promethean75 wrote:
The 14th Amendment asserts that no state shall make or enforce any law abridging the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States or deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of the law[1]. The Supreme Court recognizes a 14th-Amendment guaranty of substantive due process that protects US residents against arbitrary legislative actions; this constitutional guarantee requires that legislation not be unreasonable, arbitrary, or capricious and that it have a substantial relation to the legislative objective [2]. Essentially, though, this provision demands only minimal scrutiny or rational review of the enacted legislation; the law need only be rationally related to a legitimate government purpose to be declared constitutional. Further, the Supreme Court has recognized each state’s “police power,” which gives the state authority to enact health laws of every description, including quarantine and vaccination laws, to protect its citizens [2].

In 1905 the Supreme Court addressed mandatory vaccinations in regard to smallpox in Jacobson v Massachusetts [2]. There the Court ruled that the police power of a state absolutely included reasonable regulations established by legislature to protect public health and safety [2]. Such regulations do not violate the 14th Amendment right to liberty because they fall within the many restraints to which every person is necessarily subjected for the common good [3]. Real liberty for all cannot exist if each individual is allowed to act without regard to the injury that his or her actions might cause others; liberty is constrained by law. The Court went on to determine in Jacobson that a state may require vaccination if the board of health deems it necessary for public health or safety [4].


https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/ar ... ic/2006-04

A lot of doctors and police are going to get hurt if they try that.
User avatar
Gloominary
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2344
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:58 am
Location: Canada

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:29 pm

A decent online resource critical of vaccines from a number of different angles is


https://childrenshealthdefense.org/
Karpel Tunnel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2985
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby phyllo » Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:47 pm

As far as spreading fear, gosh, I don't think what and how I write puts me in the top ten categories right now of fear mongering.
You're feeding the fear and anxiety. You're posts are not balanced and they are not reducing fear. What do you think the readers will take away from those posts?
When I told people I had Corora it was like I'd said I had stage 4 cancer, even after I explained I have no health issues that should make me particularly vulnerable.
Did you have a positive test? I'm not sure what to make of this:

KT : I have most likely just recovered from it. They stopped testing where I am so I just treated it myself at home. It was a flu, in my case, not an especially bad one. Some of the symptoms were new for me, not worse, just different.

It sounds like you self-diagnosed.
You're aware of your expertise and I'm aware of my ignorance.

You said to Gloominary, while feeling confident enough in your certainty that whatever number of people it would take to either intentionally or via lack of concern about people are not possibly present. You know that people are not like that in enough numbers.
That was an honest statement on my part. I rely experts a lot of the time. I don't have time to research everything. I don't 10,000 hours to build up expertise in a field. A dentist or doctor who sees dozens of patients per week has more knowledge and better judgement about dentistry and medicine than I do. You can point to quacks and failures of medicine but in general, that's just the reality of it.

Go ahead, call me "sheeple" now.
I notice the thigns you do not respond to in my posts.
I want to de-escalate. I'm doing it by not responding some things.

I want to focus whether vaccines are positive or negative for a person and a society.

Should MagsJ take a small hit of "toxic" chemical in order get the benefit of a vaccine or not?

That's where the thread is now at, as far as I can see.
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11864
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby MagsJ » Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:12 pm

Gloominary wrote:
promethean75 wrote:
The 14th Amendment asserts that no state shall make or enforce any law abridging the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States or deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of the law[1]. The Supreme Court recognizes a 14th-Amendment guaranty of substantive due process that protects US residents against arbitrary legislative actions; this constitutional guarantee requires that legislation not be unreasonable, arbitrary, or capricious and that it have a substantial relation to the legislative objective [2]. Essentially, though, this provision demands only minimal scrutiny or rational review of the enacted legislation; the law need only be rationally related to a legitimate government purpose to be declared constitutional. Further, the Supreme Court has recognized each state’s “police power,” which gives the state authority to enact health laws of every description, including quarantine and vaccination laws, to protect its citizens [2].

In 1905 the Supreme Court addressed mandatory vaccinations in regard to smallpox in Jacobson v Massachusetts [2]. There the Court ruled that the police power of a state absolutely included reasonable regulations established by legislature to protect public health and safety [2]. Such regulations do not violate the 14th Amendment right to liberty because they fall within the many restraints to which every person is necessarily subjected for the common good [3]. Real liberty for all cannot exist if each individual is allowed to act without regard to the injury that his or her actions might cause others; liberty is constrained by law. The Court went on to determine in Jacobson that a state may require vaccination if the board of health deems it necessary for public health or safety [4].


https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/ar ... ic/2006-04

A lot of doctors and police are going to get hurt if they try that.

Lol.

Here, many people stopped getting the flu jab because they realised that it was making them ill.. even medical professionals have refused to have it, and they were threatened with the sack if they didn’t.

MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS ARE SCARED TO GET THE FLU JAB IN CASE IT MAKES THEM DEBILITATED OR EVEN DIE, FACT!
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ


Nobilis Est Ira Leonis | Om Surya Devaay namah | Manus justa nardus
User avatar
MagsJ
The Londonist: a chic geek
 
Posts: 19650
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: London, NC1 … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … …Surya.. the sun

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby MagsJ » Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:22 pm

phyllo wrote:I want to focus whether vaccines are positive or negative for a person and a society.

Should MagsJ take a small hit of "toxic" chemical in order get the benefit of a vaccine or not?

That's where the thread is now at, as far as I can see.

Please see my previous post.. this isn’t just about me, this is about how the UK and the World feels about the matter in general, including medical professionals who fear how the flu jab makes them feel after having it.. let alone all the other injectables manufactured for public consumption.

What’s the problem with supplying a much-less toxic or non-toxic vaccine? I don’t see the drama there.. or am I missing something.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ


Nobilis Est Ira Leonis | Om Surya Devaay namah | Manus justa nardus
User avatar
MagsJ
The Londonist: a chic geek
 
Posts: 19650
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: London, NC1 … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … …Surya.. the sun

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby phyllo » Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:34 pm

Please see my previous post.. this isn’t just about me, this is about how the UK feels about the matter in general, including medical professionals who fear how the flu jab makes them feel.
The UK isn't here reading this.
What’s the problem with supplying a much-less toxic or non-toxic vaccine? I don’t see the drama there.. or am I missing something.
Okay, so if there is no non-toxic vaccine available, for whatever reason, should you take the toxic vaccine?
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11864
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:58 pm

You're feeding the fear and anxiety. You're posts are not balanced and they are not reducing fear. What do you think the readers will take away from those posts?
My posts are supporting people who are already afraid or skeptical in the face of people disagreeing with them here AND what they are being bombarded with everywhere. Newpapers and online media are screaming at us about how dangerous this thing it, very happy, it seems to focus on cases where young people, and even one newborn (who did not die of the illness) might have been cases. If I am right, I am not feeding fear, I am supporting someone's healthy skepticism or concern.
As I said, nearly everyone who heard I had likely gotten the disease, thought there was a very good chance I would die AND essentially kill my wife (who had as a slightly younger women a much milder response. Mine was like a (weird) flu. I did not scare these people. They are being scared and confused by media and not just media but even governments. I understand that they need to be cautious and warn people but the way the information was distribtued necessarily confused people and scared the shit out of them. I see fear being created all over the place. Y

When I told people I had Corora it was like I'd said I had stage 4 cancer, even after I explained I have no health issues that should make me particularly vulnerable.
Did you have a positive test? I'm not sure what to make of this:

KT : I have most likely just recovered from it. They stopped testing where I am so I just treated it myself at home. It was a flu, in my case, not an especially bad one. Some of the symptoms were new for me, not worse, just different.
They told us to stay home unless we were, basically, dying and were not testing. I had a flu with symptoms I have never had before (I get flus maybe every third or fourth year) and exactly like they describe down to a dry cough which I hever have. I always produce masses of phlegm and slime. The first two days it was like someone was sitting on my chest. Perhaps it wasn't Corona. That's besides the point. I and health professionals, I have ones who are friends, thought it sounded exactly like Corono, thought it was most likely that and when I told people that I mostly likely had it (my exact wording) they freaked. Since I had gone past what the government was summing up via the media, I knew my chances were extremely good, especially given the state of my health. I also know how to treat illness and keep the lungs open, not in some binary 'cure' way, but I know how to help a body. This may have made my case easier to deal with.

It sounds like you self-diagnosed.
Which if you read what hospitals are doing is really no different. The test is for any corona virus. But further pardon me for following the law where I am. And further, it makes no difference to the argument that was in.

Just implying some shit here, without saying anything. It's a real Iambiguous kinda move. Imply something, as if it is relevant, but don't say it. Safe, neat, bs.

If it was Covid my chances of survival, at my age, with my lack of anything close the health issues that make it dangerous, were incredibly low. But their reactions were, as said, extreme. I saw similar reactions when my wife was diagnosed with cancer. And those reactions came from a variety of different friends in different countries. I had to tell them the actual statistics that I had to dig just a little bit for. And I mean the actual statistics of the mainstream scientists tracking the disease. This was not me getting statistics from conspiracy sites. People in my age range were somewhere around 2%, and the vast majority of those in that two percent had heart disease, lung issues, diabetes etc.
If it wasn’t the virus, we still have these panicked terrified reactions. In the world of causing fear, I am not a blip on the radar.
Further hearing their panic was not helpful, I could feel it stressing me as I am sure people are stressing themselves and others due to how media and governments are conflating threats to individuals with overloading the system with cases.

You're aware of your expertise and I'm aware of my ignorance.

That was an honest statement on my part. I rely experts a lot of the time. I don't have time to research everything. I don't 10,000 hours to build up expertise in a field. A dentist or doctor who sees dozens of patients per week has more knowledge and better judgement about dentistry and medicine than I do. You can point to quacks and failures of medicine but in general, that's just the reality of it.
And I focused that quote on your estimates of how people wouldn't do bad things. Well, if you actually do have less than 10K hours on those, than perhaps you shouldn't have presented your opinions so certainly about that and mocked others. I've got more than 10k hours in what official, mainstream governments and corporations both Western and other are capable of presenting as the scientific or rational position, both in recent times and going back into my lifetime. I think you need a bit more humility and less certainty. What you know about medicine was not the point in relation to my post.
Go ahead, call me "sheeple" now.
Duh. I think better here, now, would be 'asshole'. First, Don't accuse me of things I haven't done and further things that don't even fit the argument I am making. My point was not that you are fooled and a sheeple or anything in that direction. My point was that you're faux humility there does not fit your certainty that people you disagree with are being silly. You mock them. You dismiss. That was BS faux humility. That was my point. The word sheeple is not one I use, does not fit my point and seems to have arisen in your brain.


I notice the thigns you do not respond to in my posts.
I want to de-escalate. I'm doing it by not responding some things.
So, let me get this straight. You decided to respond just to personal points. You responded to my saying what you were doing in relation to mags and told me I was spreading fear, as a way to deescalate. But decided not to respond to factual matters I took up in my post. I do believe you just said that honestly, but man, you don't seem to know what you are doing.

I want to focus whether vaccines are positive or negative for a person and a society.
And you extend this absurd way of justifying your lack of response to most of the points I made with this, which also does not fit in the least your response to me.
Should MagsJ take a small hit of "toxic" chemical in order get the benefit of a vaccine or not?

That's where the thread is now at, as far as I can see.
Another Iambism. Tell others what the thread is about. That's a fine topic, but part of that decision making for her, clearly, and also for you, since you made assertions about it, had to do with the chances that governments and corporations might be acting either negligently, or with a lack of care, or even with bad motives. You went there, she went there. Seemed to matter to you guys. You don't wanna talk about it anymore is obviously your choice, but don't present it, now, after you get some criqitue, as you can announce where the thread is at.

I'll de-escalate by ignoring you. This response and the one before it were jokes. If you are interested in learning what experts, including doctors, scientists, governments even, say when they are critical of vaccines, feel free to check out the website I linked.
Last edited by Karpel Tunnel on Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Karpel Tunnel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2985
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby MagsJ » Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:05 pm

phyllo wrote:
Please see my previous post.. this isn’t just about me, this is about how the UK feels about the matter in general, including medical professionals who fear how the flu jab makes them feel.
The UK isn't here reading this.

Factual evidence to back up my concerns, and to be taken into account over those concerns.. I like the way you quickly chose to dismiss it, like it has no bearing here at all.

What’s the problem with supplying a much-less toxic or non-toxic vaccine? I don’t see the drama there.. or am I missing something.
Okay, so if there is no non-toxic vaccine available, for whatever reason, should you take the toxic vaccine?

You keep evading the question of why it has to be toxic?
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ


Nobilis Est Ira Leonis | Om Surya Devaay namah | Manus justa nardus
User avatar
MagsJ
The Londonist: a chic geek
 
Posts: 19650
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: London, NC1 … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … …Surya.. the sun

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby phyllo » Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:07 pm

I'll de-escalate by ignoring you.
I won't bother quoting the entire post.

I thought I was explaining some of the things that I was posting and why. And also why I wasn't responding to some things.

I get this hostile response.
Last edited by phyllo on Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11864
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby phyllo » Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:13 pm

Factual evidence to back up my concerns, and to be taken into account over those concerns.. I like the way you quickly chose to dismiss it, like it has no bearing here at all.
I don't know how the UK feels about it. I only read what you say that the UK feels about it.
You keep evading the question of why it has to be toxic?
Whether it has to be toxic or not is separate from whether it is beneficial in the balance.

I already gave you the benefit of the doubt by conceding that it may be toxic.
If you get a benefit then you will consume a toxic substance. What do you think chemotherapy for cancer is?
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11864
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Gloominary » Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:01 pm

MagsJ wrote:Lol.

Here, many people stopped getting the flu jab because they realised that it was making them ill.. even medical professionals have refused to have it, and they were threatened with the sack if they didn’t.

MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS ARE SCARED TO GET THE FLU JAB IN CASE IT MAKES THEM DEBILITATED OR EVEN DIE, FACT!

Our experiences, observations and opinions matter, no matter how many times the shills tell us they don't.
User avatar
Gloominary
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2344
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:58 am
Location: Canada

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby MagsJ » Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:32 pm

Gloominary wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Lol.

Here, many people stopped getting the flu jab because they realised that it was making them ill.. even medical professionals have refused to have it, and they were threatened with the sack if they didn’t.

MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS ARE SCARED TO GET THE FLU JAB IN CASE IT MAKES THEM DEBILITATED OR EVEN DIE, FACT!

Our experiences and opinions matter, no matter how many times the shills tell us they don't.

First, I had to look ‘shill’ up.. second, I was of same thought as to Phyllo’s (ill) intentions.. his skirting around and squirming around the issue gave it away, either that or he’s playing devils advocate? :-s

At least during this time of minimal-interactivity the planet can regenerate and rejuvenate itself, as can we too.. albeit enforcibly, as ecological observations are proving this happening around the world.
Last edited by MagsJ on Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ


Nobilis Est Ira Leonis | Om Surya Devaay namah | Manus justa nardus
User avatar
MagsJ
The Londonist: a chic geek
 
Posts: 19650
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: London, NC1 … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … …Surya.. the sun

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby phyllo » Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:39 pm

The issue is whether you get a net benefit from vaccines. It's not whether vaccines have "toxic" ingredients.

Sure, "non-toxic" vaccines are preferable to "toxic" vaccines, but sometimes you don't have that much control over what is happening.
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11864
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby MagsJ » Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:45 pm

phyllo wrote:The issue is whether you get a net benefit from vaccines. It's not whether vaccines have "toxic" ingredients.

Really?

Why shouldn’t both those issues be taken under consideration, when formulating a vaccine to administer to The World?

Sure, "non-toxic" vaccines are preferable to "toxic" vaccines, but sometimes you don't have that much control over what is happening.

So why don’t they kill 2 birds with one stone? if the intention is to inoculate all for the greater good, then make the vaccine appealing to all.. like one does a popstar or global celebrity. How is that so difficult to do?
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ


Nobilis Est Ira Leonis | Om Surya Devaay namah | Manus justa nardus
User avatar
MagsJ
The Londonist: a chic geek
 
Posts: 19650
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: London, NC1 … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … …Surya.. the sun

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Gloominary » Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:16 pm

In my opinion, it's never a good idea to vaccinate, period.
There's much safer, more natural and effective ways to boost your immunity or rather, improve your terrain.
But that's just my opinion, based on my experience and research.
I'm not trying to set myself up as another expert, I'm not.
I'm just totally against this idea we should never question or critique the self-appointed experts or look into alternatives.

In my view, there are no experts in the sense many people normally think of them, as these godlike entities beyond question or critique by mere mortals.
We get to play a or THE role in determining who the experts are for ourselves, as individuals, communities and a democracy, by continually making them earn our trust.
We don't trust absolutely, rather if someone has given us lots of reasons to trust them, we may lower our guard a little, give them a bit of benefit of the doubt, but we never place all our eggs in their basket, we're never all in, without reservation.
To me, that's not rational thinking, that's having faith in the science Gods.

Other than that...do with your own body what you will *shrugs*.
User avatar
Gloominary
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2344
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:58 am
Location: Canada

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Gloominary » Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:23 am

MagsJ wrote:
Gloominary wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Lol.

Here, many people stopped getting the flu jab because they realised that it was making them ill.. even medical professionals have refused to have it, and they were threatened with the sack if they didn’t.

MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS ARE SCARED TO GET THE FLU JAB IN CASE IT MAKES THEM DEBILITATED OR EVEN DIE, FACT!

Our experiences and opinions matter, no matter how many times the shills tell us they don't.

First, I had to look ‘shill’ up.. second, I was of same thought as to Phyllo’s (ill) intentions.. his skirting around and squirming around the issue gave it away, either that or he’s playing devils advocate? :-s

At least during this time of minimal-interactivity the planet can regenerate and rejuvenate itself, as can we too.. albeit enforcibly, as ecological observations are proving this happening around the world.

Myself, I prefer not to speculate about people's motives, or at least not make my speculations known, I prefer to keep the focus on the ideas.
If I think someone's being totally disingenuous, intentionally skirting around the issues, then I'll probably just try and not engage with that person.
Not saying that's what Phyllo is trying to do, just speaking generally.

Yea there are some upsides, the earth is getting a break at least, some of us will have more time to pause and think, take a breather.
Hopefully everyone will get the help that they need.
User avatar
Gloominary
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2344
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:58 am
Location: Canada

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby MagsJ » Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:03 pm

The moral onus is on the individual and not the manufacturer, it seems.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ


Nobilis Est Ira Leonis | Om Surya Devaay namah | Manus justa nardus
User avatar
MagsJ
The Londonist: a chic geek
 
Posts: 19650
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: London, NC1 … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … …Surya.. the sun

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby phyllo » Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:06 pm

What "moral onus"?
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11864
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby MagsJ » Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:10 pm

UK CV19 update:

- The virus isn’t even comparable to the seasonal flu or other cold viruses.. not even close.

- Those countries and individuals who have had the BCG, seem to be protected from the virus 6-fold, so countries are looking into administering the benefits of the BCG rather than sourcing a new vaccine.

- The lock-down will be reviewed this week and a revised lift-date set, but the current restrictions will still remain in place for now, to curb the spread of CV19.

Image
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ


Nobilis Est Ira Leonis | Om Surya Devaay namah | Manus justa nardus
User avatar
MagsJ
The Londonist: a chic geek
 
Posts: 19650
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: London, NC1 … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … …Surya.. the sun

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby MagsJ » Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:23 pm

phyllo wrote:What "moral onus"?

#-o

Is playing dumb a prerequisite for Philosophy?

Phyllo (pastry) come on now, maan.. really? What moral onus do you think I mean?
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ


Nobilis Est Ira Leonis | Om Surya Devaay namah | Manus justa nardus
User avatar
MagsJ
The Londonist: a chic geek
 
Posts: 19650
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: London, NC1 … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … …Surya.. the sun

PreviousNext

Return to Current Events



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users