Should I vote for Boris?

Discussion of the recent unfolding of history.

Re: Should I vote for Boris?

Postby MagsJ » Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:22 pm

Silhouette wrote:
It's difficult to say if the BBC are anti-Tory from what I can tell. We've had a Tory government for 12 years, and unless you count the previous 13 years of "new-Labour", the UK hasn't had a left-wing government since the brutal overhaul that started in 1979 with Thatcher, who called Tony Blair "her greatest achievement". Yes, that's 40 years. The incumbent party gets all the TV coverage including BBC, because they're the ones in the driving seat knee deep in all the current affairs. The opposition just gets to chip in occasionally on how much better they'd be if it were them in power.

The BBC and most newspapers have always been pro-Left.. for decades.

The BBC has now become more non-bisased, and so they should be.. because we all contribute to their service-provision and therefore expected impartial output. Same with the newspapers..
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get that time back, and I may need it for something at some point in time. Wait! What?

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Re: Should I vote for Boris?

Postby iambiguous » Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:25 pm

Maia wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:Only way to see if someones is truly honest is to give them governing powers.
Thats when you know.
Its easier to be honest while carrying no responsibility.

Meanwhile the fact that a Corbyn can thrive in England is a sign that civilization is waning there.


Sadly, you're right about civilization waning here.


Just out of curiosity, is there a way to connect the dots between a discussion in a Society, Government, and Economics forum to a discussion in a philosophy forum such that all rational individuals are obligated to construe civilization in a particular way? In regard to such things as, say, immigration policy, race, religion, political prejudices?

Or are civilized folks pretty much in sync with the kind of people that you want to be around? :-k
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Should I vote for Boris?

Postby Meno_ » Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:18 pm

Unfortunately, levels of civilisation are another fissure to an already unstable world.

Are the former colonies really civilised? Are the Irish really civilised in the eyes of the Brits?


Can they afford to chose the company they keep?
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Re: Should I vote for Boris?

Postby Silhouette » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:43 pm

MagsJ wrote:most newspapers have always been pro-Left.. for decades.

Mags, I'm not talking out of my arse here:

UK general election newspaper endorsements for 2010, 2015, and 2017:

2010: 16 endorse Tories, 3 Lib dem and 5 Labour, of which 13 national newspapers endorse Tories with just the Mirror and the Sunday Mirror endorsing Labour in that same category.
2015: 3 national daily newspapers now endorse Labour, and 5 the Tories. 16 in total still for the Tories but an increase to 11 endorsing Labour in total.
2017: 15 endorse Tories, 12 Labour - breaking down to 11 daily/sunday papers for the Tories and only the Guardian and the Morning Star to add to the Mirror and Sunday Mirror for Labour totalling 4.

Don't give me this shit that "most newspapers have always been pro-Left.. for decades" when it's patently false with all the information out there and readily available on the internet.
How you've been able to maintain this delusion even without actually checking it is beyond me - it's obvious enough as it is, but this is exactly what I was talking about with Maia - FACT CHECK ffs.

And this isn't taking into account circulation, where even this year, the Mirror only sells just over 1/3 as much per month as the Sun and the Guardian only 1/10, with all the the other daily newspapers either endorsing the Tories or no one. That's 4 million a month for Tory newspapers and 650k for Labour: making Tories literally 6 times more dominant in the newspaper media than Labour.

But you're right, "most newspapers have always been pro-Left.. for decades" #-o

This forum drives me fucking nuts.
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Re: Should I vote for Boris?

Postby MagsJ » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:56 pm

Silhouette wrote:
MagsJ wrote:most newspapers have always been pro-Left.. for decades.

Mags, I'm not talking out of my arse here:

But you're right, "most newspapers have always been pro-Left.. for decades" #-o

This forum drives me fucking nuts.

..and what about the BBC.. how long have they been anti-Tory/right, and all about da Left? How long have they been Left-biased? Do you have a link for that?

I thought we were having a very civil debate, but it only seems so when it suits you.. care to comment on the rest of my post? If not, no matter.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get that time back, and I may need it for something at some point in time. Wait! What?

--MagsJ
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Re: Should I vote for Boris?

Postby Silhouette » Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:28 pm

MagsJ wrote:..and what about the BBC.. how long have they been anti-Tory/right, and all about da Left? How long have they been Left-biased? Do you have a link for that?

I thought we were having a very civil debate, but it only seems so when it suits you.. care to comment on the rest of my post? If not, no matter.

I already wrote this a whopping 7 posts before you began page 3 of this thread by "just saying stuff" about newspapers.

By definition the BBC is a public service broadcaster, so why would they vote for Tory cuts to public services? But this doesn't mean they're pro Corbyn, they're centre-left, new Labour style, not left - even though the left goes way further left than Corbyn, who is just old Labour. He's still a Social Democrat, which the ignorant, indoctrinated or biased love to conflate with Socialism or even "radical Socialism", but this is more "just saying stuff" that simply isn't true. I don't remember you personally making this mistake, but just in case you're tempted like so many others have on this forum...
It's not just you on this forum who inspired my comment about how this place as a whole drives me nuts, you were just the most recent example of corroborating patent political partisan falsehood.
A Social Democrat is still pro-Capitalist, which at its leftest sides with the "Nordic model", that consistently tops economic measures of success per capita. It's a stretch but not too much of a stretch to suggest that even Tories are Social Democrat, because even they're pro-mixed-economy, even if they want much reduced government intervention than Labour - but even they're a long way off Libertarian, just like even old Labour is a long way off rejecting Capitalism outright - as Socialism is defined.

Feel free to fact check all of the above information, unlike so many others here I don't give a shit about misrepresenting anyone or sugar-coating anyone else.
If I'm wrong, show me a source and an argument that isn't fallacious and I'll gladly adjust my views.
As for now, I'm no representative of Corbyn's policies even though plenty of them overlap with my own - I'm actually more left than he is, but even I'm still hesitant about rejecting Capitalism outright and going full Socialist. As you know, I have unprecedented new ideas that revolutionise the normal way of doing things, which is a step too far for people like yourself. But given a choice between Corbyn and Boris, or some pointless single-issue political populist opportunists like "The Brexit Party", Corbyn is obviously the closest. Lib Dems pretended to be a Labour alternative with Nick Clegg, but it turned out they were just Tory-lite so fuck them. I was dumb enough to side with them at the time, and I even sided with Green before Corbyn came along.

My own personal context aside, to re-iterate what I said in the post before my last one, I'm not saying the BBC is not left, I'm saying it's not pro-Corbyn - and since it's been Tories or "New Labour" for the past 40 years, the positions of Tories are the most oft presented on the BBC - never mind any of the countless other privately owned channels that far outnumber the publicly owned channels. It really isn't as simple as saying BBC and C4 are left therefore TV is left like Maia seemed to be hinting towards - even if she'd probably admit there's more to it than that without too much hesitation.

The bottom line of all my "whining" here is that pretty much everyone contributing to this thread is set in their ways, including you - so what is the purpose of having "a very civil debate" with you or any of them?
Yes, I think the UK isn't doing too badly, only a fool would think the vast majority of the world isn't a lot worse than the UK. This doesn't mean that I like the way it's going, nor that I don't think it could be a lot lot better.
Yes, the ideals of the 70s may not transfer well 40 years later - they weren't even that popular by the end of the 70s from what I can tell - but that's not to say we haven't strayed way too far in the opposite direction and badly need reining in. I'd love a more Nordic Model here, those guys are killing it. But instead we're drifting further and further over to a US model, and even American patriots have become known for bemoaning the direction of the US. Since you ask, the Nordic Model is my answer, even if I'd go a step further than that answer if were up to me (and I'm sure many here are glad it's not up to me), and the "entirety" of "humanity at large" that "is not about countries anymore" is going in the direction that insufficiently fettered Capitalism requires it go - away from my answer. This is why I propose steps further than that answer such as this one. It sets out a theory of updating Capitalism to have sufficient internal mechanics to keep it stable, perhaps even optimal, since the Classical Liberal ones that you learn about in Economics class are evidently woefully insufficient in practice.
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Re: Should I vote for Boris?

Postby MagsJ » Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:28 pm

Silhouette wrote:I already wrote this a whopping 7 posts before you began page 3 of this thread by "just saying stuff" about newspapers.

By definition the BBC is a public service broadcaster, so why would they vote for Tory cuts to public services? But this doesn't mean they're pro Corbyn, they're centre-left, new Labour style, not left - even though the left goes way further left than Corbyn, who is just old Labour. He's still a Social Democrat, which the ignorant, indoctrinated or biased love to conflate with Socialism or even "radical Socialism", but this is more "just saying stuff" that simply isn't true. I don't remember you personally making this mistake, but just in case you're tempted like so many others have on this forum...

I’ve seen BBC political talk shows, where anyone right of centre have been shouted at and harassed by the presenters, but that has subsided this year, and so more balanced debate can take place and all views heard, not some shut down.

It's not just you on this forum who inspired my comment about how this place as a whole drives me nuts, you were just the most recent example of corroborating patent political partisan falsehood.
A Social Democrat is still pro-Capitalist, which at its leftest sides with the "Nordic model", that consistently tops economic measures of success per capita. It's a stretch but not too much of a stretch to suggest that even Tories are Social Democrat, because even they're pro-mixed-economy, even if they want much reduced government intervention than Labour - but even they're a long way off Libertarian, just like even old Labour is a long way off rejecting Capitalism outright - as Socialism is defined.

All the infighting amongst us only hinders progress and Policy-making that would benefit All.

If we, as a Nation, could be all on the same page, then the System would work better. Could that ever be a possibility?

Feel free to fact check all of the above information, unlike so many others here I don't give a shit about misrepresenting anyone or sugar-coating anyone else.
If I'm wrong, show me a source and an argument that isn't fallacious and I'll gladly adjust my views.
As for now, I'm no representative of Corbyn's policies even though plenty of them overlap with my own - I'm actually more left than he is, but even I'm still hesitant about rejecting Capitalism outright and going full Socialist. As you know, I have unprecedented new ideas that revolutionise the normal way of doing things, which is a step too far for people like yourself. But given a choice between Corbyn and Boris, or some pointless single-issue political populist opportunists like "The Brexit Party", Corbyn is obviously the closest. Lib Dems pretended to be a Labour alternative with Nick Clegg, but it turned out they were just Tory-lite so fuck them. I was dumb enough to side with them at the time, and I even sided with Green before Corbyn came along.

It’s going to be an interesting Election indeed, with so many Voters changing their Voting Intentions and with Brexit influencing their vote.

My own personal context aside, to re-iterate what I said in the post before my last one, I'm not saying the BBC is not left, I'm saying it's not pro-Corbyn - and since it's been Tories or "New Labour" for the past 40 years, the positions of Tories are the most oft presented on the BBC - never mind any of the countless other privately owned channels that far outnumber the publicly owned channels. It really isn't as simple as saying BBC and C4 are left therefore TV is left like Maia seemed to be hinting towards - even if she'd probably admit there's more to it than that without too much hesitation.

But wasn’t it BBC bias that had TV License owners in uproar, for the fact that a fairer representation of Political views should be heard?

It’s not that I’m anti any other Party, but anti bias. Aren’t we all.

The bottom line of all my "whining" here is that pretty much everyone contributing to this thread is set in their ways, including you - so what is the purpose of having "a very civil debate" with you or any of them?
Yes, I think the UK isn't doing too badly, only a fool would think the vast majority of the world isn't a lot worse than the UK. This doesn't mean that I like the way it's going, nor that I don't think it could be a lot lot better.
Yes, the ideals of the 70s may not transfer well 40 years later - they weren't even that popular by the end of the 70s from what I can tell - but that's not to say we haven't strayed way too far in the opposite direction and badly need reining in. I'd love a more Nordic Model here, those guys are killing it. But instead we're drifting further and further over to a US model, and even American patriots have become known for bemoaning the direction of the US. Since you ask, the Nordic Model is my answer, even if I'd go a step further than that answer if were up to me (and I'm sure many here are glad it's not up to me), and the "entirety" of "humanity at large" that "is not about countries anymore" is going in the direction that insufficiently fettered Capitalism requires it go - away from my answer. This is why I propose steps further than that answer such as this one. It sets out a theory of updating Capitalism to have sufficient internal mechanics to keep it stable, perhaps even optimal, since the Classical Liberal ones that you learn about in Economics class are evidently woefully insufficient in practice.

I’m not averse to change, to a more beneficial economic model.. how it would be implemented with regard to funding streams and long-term upkeep etc. are of more importance than change.

I do think that the Parties should work together, but the want for gaining Seats precedes cooperation.. I can’t see the concept of better Political cooperation becoming a thing, but it would be a good solution to our current state of affairs.
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Re: Should I vote for Boris?

Postby MagsJ » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:01 am

I wasn’t wrong about the exit polls..

I’ve got a political celebratory-party to attend, come da weekend.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get that time back, and I may need it for something at some point in time. Wait! What?

--MagsJ
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Re: Should I vote for Boris?

Postby MagsJ » Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:32 am

Seats swinging from Labour/Left, to Conservative/Right, is happening also as predicted, and that’s me done for the night.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get that time back, and I may need it for something at some point in time. Wait! What?

--MagsJ
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Re: Should I vote for Boris?

Postby MagsJ » Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:37 pm

Party and leader
Seats
Share
Count

Conservative Party
Boris Johnson
364 43.6% 13,941,200

Labour Party
Jeremy Corbyn
203 32.2% 10,292,054

Scottish National Party
Nicola Sturgeon
48 3.9% 1,242,372

Liberal Democrats
Jo Swinson
11 11.5% 3,675,342

Democratic Unionist Party
Arlene Foster
8 0.8% 244,128

Sinn Féin
Mary Lou McDonald
7 0.6% 181,853

Plaid Cymru
Adam Price
4 0.5% 153,265

Green Party
Jonathan Bartley & Siân Berry Am
1 2.7% 864,743

Brexit Party
Nigel Farage
0 2% 642,303

UK Independence Party
Patricia Mountain
0 0.1% 22,817

Other parties
3 2.1% 700,440


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The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get that time back, and I may need it for something at some point in time. Wait! What?

--MagsJ
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Re: Should I vote for Boris?

Postby MagsJ » Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:52 pm

This outcome really wasn’t hard to predict, when you line up all the data and analyse it, for the most evident, probable outcome.. I think I’ve got way too much time on my hands, and my mind.. far too little to keep itself occupied with, and so finds things to do.

Look at how blue the map is.. isn’t blue pretty? :romance-hearteyes: :romance-inlove:

537A2199-275B-44DA-AA67-71B1BCE4E353.jpeg
537A2199-275B-44DA-AA67-71B1BCE4E353.jpeg (69.32 KiB) Viewed 118 times
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get that time back, and I may need it for something at some point in time. Wait! What?

--MagsJ
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Re: Should I vote for Boris?

Postby Aegean » Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:08 pm

Finally the Brits will exit Europe and the lines between the declining American Empire and the rest of the emerging Super-states will be clearly defined.
I expect some more exits from the British Union, and the shrinking of English dominion.
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Re: Should I vote for Boris?

Postby MagsJ » Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:42 pm

Aegean wrote:Finally the Brits will exit Europe and the lines between the declining American Empire and the rest of the emerging Super-states will be clearly defined.
I expect some more exits from the British Union, and the shrinking of English dominion.

You do?

How so?
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get that time back, and I may need it for something at some point in time. Wait! What?

--MagsJ
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Re: Should I vote for Boris?

Postby Maia » Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:45 pm

I have to say even I was surprised at the extent of his victory. I had a little bet with a friend at work, she said in the 80s I said in the 20s. I was wrong.
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Re: Should I vote for Boris?

Postby Aegean » Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:46 pm

Scots will ask for a Scotexit...then, maybe the irish, for an Irateexit.

In any case...good riddance.
American shills.
hasn't been an independent British nation since they mortgaged themselves to the US to survive the Germans.
They now prefer Paki rape gangs to Polish plumbers.

I think they should get what they asked for.
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Re: Should I vote for Boris?

Postby MagsJ » Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:41 pm

Maia wrote:I have to say even I was surprised at the extent of his victory. I had a little bet with a friend at work, she said in the 80s I said in the 20s. I was wrong.

..at least I don’t have to honour my decision to flee the country.. along with others who vouched to too, if under the leadership of a Leftist government.. as I do on the announcement of each General Election.

I hope you didn’t lose.. too much?
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get that time back, and I may need it for something at some point in time. Wait! What?

--MagsJ
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Re: Should I vote for Boris?

Postby MagsJ » Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:24 pm

Aegean wrote:Scots will ask for a Scotexit...then, maybe the irish, for an Irateexit.

In any case...good riddance.
American shills.

Well you preempted this afternoon’s news, but Scotexit is not likely, and N-Irexit.. even less so. You fail to either see, or acknowledge, the wants and feels of current climes.

Shill? a new word for me.. the things one learns on here/the internet.

hasn't been an independent British nation since they mortgaged themselves to the US to survive the Germans.
They now prefer Paki rape gangs to Polish plumbers.

I think they should get what they asked for.

You’re not wrong there.. I don’t understand how such sub-groups can monopolise on an entire town or city, with their ill-intentions. Was everyone asleep at the social-worker-wheel?
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get that time back, and I may need it for something at some point in time. Wait! What?

--MagsJ
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Re: Should I vote for Boris?

Postby Aegean » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:05 pm

Scottish exodus will follow.
Then Ireland, depending on the performance of the Scots.
Don't see the Welsh demanding separation, any time soon.

But who knows?
Anything can happen.
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Re: Should I vote for Boris?

Postby MagsJ » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:02 pm

Aegean wrote:Scottish exodus will follow.
Then Ireland, depending on the performance of the Scots.
Don't see the Welsh demanding separation, any time soon.

But who knows?
Anything can happen.

It is the Welsh who cry Independence much more than N Ireland or Scotland, but that is something to look into and revisit, now that the snap GE is over.

Peaks and troughs, but hopefully not too many roundabouts.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get that time back, and I may need it for something at some point in time. Wait! What?

--MagsJ
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Re: Should I vote for Boris?

Postby Aegean » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:05 pm

MagsJ wrote:It is the Welsh who cry Independence much more than N Ireland or Scotland, but that is something to look into and revisit, now that the snap GE is over.

Peaks and troughs, but hopefully not too many roundabouts.
Do they?
I've only seen the Scots.
They had a referendum, no?
They'll soon have another.
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Re: Should I vote for Boris?

Postby MagsJ » Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:07 am

Aegean wrote:I've only seen the Scots.
They had a referendum, no?
They'll soon have another.

Yes, they did.. Scottish Independence was voted against, and no new Referendum has been scheduled any time soon.

No they will not, but the Welsh are singing the loudest from the hymn-sheets of Independent declarations, but not sure where we’re at with that/progression on that declaration.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get that time back, and I may need it for something at some point in time. Wait! What?

--MagsJ
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Re: Should I vote for Boris?

Postby Aegean » Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:29 am

It all depends on what kind of new arrangement they make with Europe.
Such things take decades to produce consequences.
The movement towards the US maybe a mistake. That Empire is on its way down. But that will take a while, and it depends if Trump is ousted and they return to their previous external agressive geopolitics.
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Re: Should I vote for Boris?

Postby MagsJ » Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:56 am

Aegean wrote:It all depends on what kind of new arrangement they make with Europe.
Such things take decades to produce consequences.

Hopefully arrangements that help, not hinder, the U.K. economy, will be made, and all future consequences.. to follow suit, as it’s currently about vested-interests, not UK-interests.. that’s a fact!

The movement towards the US maybe a mistake. That Empire is on its way down. But that will take a while, and it depends if Trump is ousted and they return to their previous external agressive geopolitics.

Perhaps Empires should give way to thriving Nations and their populace? but what should be a given, seems to be a big ask, for those in the position to enact it. Haven’t We been given much to do.. a full plate, for a full belly.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get that time back, and I may need it for something at some point in time. Wait! What?

--MagsJ
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