## Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

Discussion of the recent unfolding of history.

### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

Carleas wrote:No, still just the first thing. That guitar music is righteous, no doubt, but what is that video supposed to show? It picks up mid conversation, so it's not clear what's being withheld and why.

When I go to the bakery and order some bread, and they're like "give me the money", and I'm like "nah, I'm not going to...If the [bread is not baked], you’re not getting the money", that is neither bribery nor extortion, right?

So, what's the accusation here? What's the context? Was he acting in his personal capacity? Was he relaying administration policy? Was it even an accurate description of events?

Here's the full video and transcript of the conversation. It's clear from context that 1) he was there relaying an official policy position of the administration, 2) it's in the context of providing aid to Ukraine against Russia, and even of praising the Trump administration for some of its steps with respect to the Ukraine, and 3) it's part of an international effort to enforce sanctions against Russia and limit their influence in the Ukraine.

I suspect that context was cut because the editor felt that it muddied the water.

The context is that Biden brazenly admits to corruption, extortion, and gifting his son a no-show job.

That's how much contempt the Liberal-Left has, believing they are untouchable, and they can do whatever they want without rebuke. Now that Trump is draining the swamp, the tune will change, hopefully.

Next, it would be nice for a news agency follow-through with the Clinton-Epstein link, and put the Democratic party in with the pedophiles.

Icing on the cake, let's see if it happens.
Urwrongx1000
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### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

You should watch the testimony given by two career diplomats in the Ukraine yesterday, in which they both explicitly rejected that Biden's conduct was corrupt. Also note that one of them had cautioned Biden against a perceived conflict of interest related to Burisma, leading to that company' exclusion from embassy events, and the other one was a Trump appointee.

Also note that the prosecutor that Biden was talking about was blocking an investigation of Burisma.

Also note that Trump was a friend and defender of Jeffrey Epstein, seems to have known about his pedophilia, has himself admitted to liking young girls, and has admitting to sexually assaulting women.
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Carleas
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### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

Trump owned the modeling world and didn't need to drink the poison that Epstein offered to his blackmail targets. Clinton? Now publicly linked on video, with evidence, that is being spiked by the major news networks. In short, Trump was and is not paid-off, like other DC Politicians, nor is Trump bribed by 12 or 13 year old girls, like other DC Politicians and Media CEOs.

Again, even *IF* Trump ordered Ukraine to investigate Biden, and his obvious corruption (Biden Jr no-show job), then it is more than legitimate to do so, no "crime", and certainly nothing worthy of an Impeachment. This only reveals how little to no case Democrats have.

Lastly, the Whistleblower should be exposed. While Whistleblower laws may apply to high levels of government and corporate crime. This is an Impeachment of the President of the United States of America. There is no "Whistleblowing" law that makes one immune to this type of trial and due-process. It is Unconstitutional to go to an Impeachment under the pretense of an anonymous "Whistleblower". The President has Right to Due Process. And that means, confronting your Accuser.

If Demon-rats, and the Loonely-Left-Liberals have any backbone, they'll do what's right and put the Whistleblower up to testify, ASAP.

Otherwise this whole unjust coup, witch-hunt, is Unconstitutional in addition to a treasonous act by the Democratic Party, their handlers and constituents.
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### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

LOL

Who needs Fiction, when you have Truth?! Ouch!
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### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

Urwrongx1000 wrote:The President has Right to Due Process.

You are using a term of art that doesn't mean what you think it means. The Constitution expressly gives Congress the sole authority to remove the President through the process of impeachment by the House and a trial in the Senate overseen by the Chief Justice. That is the process.
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Carleas
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### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

From what I understand the democrats got themselves slapped pretty hard yesterday and it basically was a republican political victory. To do an impeachment before a national election looks like a soft organized political coup, if the democrats were confident about themselves politically they would let this all play out during the national election by voting. Instead this national theatrics of an impeachment looks like a political position of weakness or desperation and most of the nation doesn't respect that all. In the competition of politics nobody respects positions of weakness.

[Although for my disdain for democracy and voting it's not like a vote means much of anything at all. For the sake of argument here however you would think that would be the political strategy to play here.]
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### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

Zero_Sum wrote:democrats got themselves slapped pretty hard

The witnesses confirmed every allegation, and made new allegations as well. How is that "slapped"?

Zero_Sum wrote:To do an impeachment before a national election looks like a soft organized political coup

Trump has more than 1/4 of his presidency left.
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Carleas
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### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

Carleas wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:democrats got themselves slapped pretty hard

The witnesses confirmed every allegation, and made new allegations as well. How is that "slapped"?

Zero_Sum wrote:To do an impeachment before a national election looks like a soft organized political coup

Trump has more than 1/4 of his presidency left.

0sum, (awesome)& Carleas,(car lease)

The awareness of implosion is at hand, when the inverse psychology of intentions will be discovered, through the translation, toward 'clearity & transparency'.~ as more then merely trying to breach party differences.

pls.don't hit an innocent bystander.
Last edited by Meno_ on Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

Carleas wrote:You are using a term of art that doesn't mean what you think it means. The Constitution expressly gives Congress the sole authority to remove the President through the process of impeachment by the House and a trial in the Senate overseen by the Chief Justice. That is the process.

They have no Right, and under no law, to base their case on an anonymous "Whistleblower".

Due to the nature and severity of this prosecution, the Whistleblower must now be named and outed, because Congress is trying to impeach the duly and fairly elected President of the United States.

There is no "Whistleblower" protection or anonymity, when you try to overthrow the US Government.

A cornerstone of US Law, is a Right to face your accusers. This is no custody battle. These are hearings to impeach the President. It is unconstitutional, to protect the hypothetical "Whistleblower", now.
Urwrongx1000
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### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

Except the procedure of handling the protection of whistle blowers has been fairly assumed to be proper, especially the fear of inter intelligence agency involvement.

Remember the Republican cornerstone of defense is lack of transparency through due process.

They would be biting themselves.in the leg. They just brought it up , well knowing, that .
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### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

Meno_ wrote:Except the procedure of handling the protection of whistle blowers has been fairly assumed to be proper, especially the fear of inter intelligence agency involvement.

Remember the Republican cornerstone of defense is lack of transparency through due process.

They would be biting themselves.in the leg. They just brought it up , well knowing, that .

While I think Whistleblower laws are good for the whole, usually, this is an exceptional case.

There is no higher Office in the United States. So, if you want to remove a duly and fairly elected President of the United States, then you cannot do so under the pretense of anonymity. You have to show your face. The people have this Right. There is no constitutional law that protects a "whistleblower", in this case, in an Impeachment, nor should there be.

Since the Dems want to go down this route, it's time to give it up. Out the Whistleblower, now, and the nation can confront any accusation, and see it all for what it is.

The People have that Right. I have that Right. You have that Right. The entire country has the Right to see and know this Accuser, trying to overthrow the Democracy.
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### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

If the Demonrats want to Censure the President, or impose some type of penalty, then the Whistleblower can stay anonymous.

But if the Demonrats want to oust a duly-elected President, then the Whistleblower cannot stay anonymous. That is unjust and unconstitutional.

There is no "Whistleblower" protection, when you're trying to impeach the sitting President.
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### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

Urwrongx1000 wrote:They have no Right, and under no law, to base their case on an anonymous "Whistleblower".

Why not? What precedent are you basing this claim on? What law?

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Congress is trying to impeach the duly and fairly elected President of the United States.

Yeah, that's what impeachment and removal are for.

Urwrongx1000 wrote:There is no "Whistleblower" protection or anonymity, when you try to overthrow the US Government.

Trump is not the government. There are three coequal branches, Trump is the head of one of them, and the rules for succession for that position are established. One of the rules of succession is that Congress can impeach and remove a sitting President.

Urwrongx1000 wrote:A cornerstone of US Law, is a Right to face your accusers.

The 6th amendment, which establishes that right, begins "In all criminal prosecutions...". This is not a criminal prosecution.

Moreover, even if this were a criminal prosecution, the right to confront witnesses would be afforded during the trial, i.e. after impeachment, and it would only extend to witnesses whose testimony is being relied upon in reaching a decision, i.e. those whose testimony is presented to the jury. Since a dozen people have come forward to describe the actions at issue, and Trump himself has released a memo corroborating the charges, the Whistleblower's testimony need not be presented or relied on in order to conclude that Trump did what he's being accused of doing.
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Carleas
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### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

1) Impeachment is a Criminal prosecution.

2) We, The People, are the Government. The People elected Trump for President. Congress is trying to remove the President. So, who is the Government, the People? Or Congress? Answer: The People, are still the Government. Because Congress is trying to, unjustly, unfairly, without Due Process, illegally, trying to overrule The People, and the votes of the country, measures must be taken. The People have Rights, to face accusers. The basis of this "Impeachment", is founded on the "anonymous whistleblower". Because this is a Criminal prosecution, The President, and all those who voted for him, The People, have a constitutional right to face this accusation.

Because the corrupt Democrats have brought the case forward, the "Whistleblower" must be exposed.

You cannot try to impeach and remove the US President under the condition of Anonymity. Has the world gone Insane??? Yes, yes it has.
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### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

I honestly believed Democrats would be too cowardly to push forward with something so stupid, but they have. And now that the impeachment is official, this "Whistleblower" is doomed. You cannot impeach the sitting US President, on the basis of anonymity and 'immunity'. Bullshit! Do you even begin to know, how Unjust that is? This is a violation of the Constitution. Not only is it Unethical, but it's Unconstitutional.

It's not only an assault against the President, it's an assault and insult to the people of this country.
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### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

If you want to impeach the US President, you better have the balls to come out and publicly state the accusations you-yourself.

This Whistleblower must now be exposed, because to further protect "anonymity", is a threat against the fabric of this country, and our Constitutional laws.

Let me restate, simply:

If you want to Impeach the sitting US President, duly and fairly-elected, then you must not hide anonymously. You are required to state, publicly, the crime. And you must face the American people. ALL OF US, own this Right. This is not simply a trial against Trump. It's a trial against the country. And this level of Corruption, must now pay a steep price. Democrats must face the penalty of such empty accusations.
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### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

Urwrongx1000 wrote:1) Impeachment is a Criminal prosecution.

Not it isn't.

1) Impeachment is the decision to have a trial at all, it is not the trial. Even among civilians, a Grand Jury is often held secretly prior to a trial, and the subject of a Grand Jury has no right to confront those witnesses.

2) The trial that impeachment starts is expressly limited by the Constitution to exclude any criminal penalties, it is solely about removal from office:
Article 1, Section 3, Clause 7 wrote:Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States; but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.

Urwrongx1000 wrote:The People elected Trump for President. Congress is trying to remove the President.

The people elected Congress too. And the people elected the representatives who ratified the Constitution, which provides for the removal of an elected President.

Urwrongx1000 wrote:You cannot try to impeach and remove the US President under the condition of Anonymity.

The Whistleblower is not impeaching the President. The House of Representatives is, based on interviews with dozens of named witnesses, many of whom will testify publicly prior to impeachment. Once he is impeached, the President will be tried, not by the Whistleblower, but by the Senate. We don't know what testimony will be presented during that trial. I would be surprised if the original Whistleblower complaint were used, because there's so much other evidence available, but if it were relied upon, and Trump asked to be confronted with his accuser, then you might have a point. As it stands, you have a bunch of political talking points that don't reflect Constitutional law.
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Carleas
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### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

Urwrongx1000 wrote:If you want to impeach the US President, you better have the balls to come out and publicly state the accusations you-yourself.

This Whistleblower must now be exposed, because to further protect "anonymity", is a threat against the fabric of this country, and our Constitutional laws.

Let me restate, simply:

If you want to Impeach the sitting US President, duly and fairly-elected, then you must not hide anonymously. You are required to state, publicly, the crime. And you must face the American people. ALL OF US, own this Right. This is not simply a trial against Trump. It's a trial against the country. And this level of Corruption, must now pay a steep price. Democrats must face the penalty of such empty accusations.

But what if intelligence inter-agency issues involve many departments where releasing identity would / could entail more than just the exposure of operatives, but could impinge on national secret international operations, by virtue of those identified?
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### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

Meno_ wrote:But what if intelligence inter-agency issues involve many departments where releasing identity would / could entail more than just the exposure of operatives, but could impinge on national secret international operations, by virtue of those identified?

It doesn't matter.

This is the forced removal of the US President. Imagine if Trump had 75% of the nation vote for him, instead of 51%. Removing the President, *IF HE COMMITTED NO CRIME*, is an assault against those who voted for him. It's an assault against Democracy.

So, was there a crime committed or not? It's basic common sense, and perhaps the core of Western Law, that people have the Right to face their accusers in Court. Because Democrats have brought it to court, which was their choice, the President, and more importantly the People, all of us, now have the Right to face that accuser as well.

If anonymity was/is so important, then this should not have gone to Impeachment trial. The case should not have depended on this witness and accusation. And it should have remained as a legal Censure. Now that it is a criminal proceeding, there is no chance, that this hypothetical whistleblower can or should or will remain anonymous. To further protect "anonymity" is an insult and threat to the American people.

The People deserve to face this accuser, and have the Right, and now the matter comes to a head, because Democrats wanted this. They pushed for it. Now it's time to push back.
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### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

National Security is more at risk to keep this "anonymous whistleblower" secret, than it is to expose, and reveal a chain of intelligence agents.

And now, if they are a chain of intelligence agents, the Partisanship involved, is a form of government corruption.

Again, because this is now a Criminal prosecution, against the Democratically-elected President of the United States, all bets are off.

You must either accuse him of a crime, or squash it. But the Democrats moved forward, and now there is no going back.
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### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

Urwrong, please, read about the Constitutional law to which you're appealing. Trump hasn't been impeached, so there is currently no trial. There aren't even articles of impeachment, so we don't even know what the formal accusation is. And impeachment and removal are two different things, akin to the difference between being indicted and convicted. When he is impeached, as he likely will be, the trial won't be held in court, it will be held in Senate and overseen by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. If he's removed, he won't go to jail. He doesn't need to have committed any crime for which he could go to jail, because impeachment is for "high crimes and misdemeanors", which are abuses of power and not just Big Bad Crimes.

Impeachment and removal is a remedy included in the Constitution in order to remove elected officials, it is literally the law governing how elected officials are removed from their elected positions.
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Carleas
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### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

The trial is right now.

It's unfortunate that you and many others are not paying attention.
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### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

The metaphorical trial may be right now, but the literal trial will be in Senate following impeachment in the House.

If everything you're saying has been metaphorical, you should make that clear.
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### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

The literal trial is right now. The whole nation, and world, sees and knows this.
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### Re: Trump impeachment proceedings begin today.

The proceedings now are a 'trial' in the same way that someone can be 'tried in the press', i.e. metaphorically. That's basically what's happening now: Democrats are trying to move public opinion by airing as much of the evidence in as much detail as possible for as long as possible to convince the public, so that when the trial starts in the Senate, public pressure will be on Republican Senators to remove Trump from office.
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