#Me Too! - thoughts on the subject

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#Me Too! - thoughts on the subject

Postby Bob » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:26 pm

There are a lot of people writing about the "me too" movement that encourages women to speak out about mistreatment in all sorts of environments, but especially sexual mistreatment in places of work.
This is an area in which I have always been careful to behave correctly, having been brought up by a mother who often gave up my bed to house unwed mothers and who installed in me an understanding that all people, men and women, black and white, should be respected. It also helps that I work in a typically women's vocation and have often been the only man on duty. Later, as I went into management, it was obvious that caution had to be taken and my behaviour had to be exemplary.
During this time there have been numerous female workmates who my wife has deemed as being "interested" and even "flaunting" in my presence. I have never been one to notice this, and so there were occasions when I disappointed the hopes that female workmates were having, and even scenes when I was accused by ladies in tears of "not seeing" what these ladies had done to attract me.
It all makes me wonder whether we all need some instruction about what happens to us when we reach puberty. It is as though our bodies are charged with feelings that move us in ways that we hadn't known until then and turns men into a gene-producing machine and women into selective mates, intent on contributing, or receiving the material with which the reproductive cycle sets into motion.
All our intelligence and thoughtfulness seems pushed aside when this happens, and we have to learn to cope with this, or face being young fathers or mothers to children we are not prepared for. Fortunately, we do have structures that do contain us to some degree, and we have standards of behaviour that often, even if not always, prevent the worst case happening when two people feel attracted to one another.
So far, so good. However, we are as a society in the process of weakening these structures and protection mechanisms. The constraints are often seen as too restrictive and "liberal" behaviour is accepted - in some cases expected by young people. They want to be free to live as they want, dress as they want, sleep with who they want and do what they want. But here is where "sexuality finds a way" and the biological processes are allowed to become unfettered for a short time, only to be put back in place when it is fitting.
The problem is that this doesn't always work. It is especially problematic, when young women do not realise how far a young man gone down the process and whether he has the ability to cease immediately at request. It can, of course, be expected from men that they are able to control themselves. The problem arises when the portrayal of women, with which some women make a living, suggests to young men that they will not have to control themselves and stop on request. It is here that the "No!" of a young woman can come too late.
In addition to this, I see a lot of young people who seem absolutely oblivious to the need for any kind of restraints and believe that the world is a garden of Eden and who are completely shocked when their family or neighbourhood disappoints this daydream.
Unfortunately, those who have promoted the structures and protection mechanisms in place, and perhaps even extended the measures to be taken "to be quite sure", have done a disservice by moralising the whole process. The so called "sexual revolution" was an attempt to break out of confined space, mostly the moral question, but it achieved instead promiscuity, which in turn brought numerous problems with it - among other, health problems. At the same time, there are still a huge number of women who have not won anything out of this "revolution", but in fact find themselves under more pressure than before. Hence the rise of the "Me too!" protest.
Disregarding who has the most blame for such behaviour, it is important for us to first of all know that this is the biological programming we all have. It is a fact of life that our minds have to come to terms with - and control. It isn't just the amount of abuse that occurs, but also the amount of dissatisfaction linked to the sex-lives of especially women. Our bodies are geared up to reproduce, but our minds should be in control of our bodies and say when.

Any thoughts?
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
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Re: #Me Too! - thoughts on the subject

Postby Pandora » Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:21 pm

I don’t follow hashtag movements, so I had to google this one up. It sounds to me like this movement should be mostly addressed to still developing countries outside of U.S., because US already has very strong anti sexual harassment/assault laws in place.

I can see, for example, this being relevant to Latin countries, where women get cat called all the time, although it may actually be, culturally, the norm, and women may actually like that kind of attention. In the US, the men are already walking on eggshells around women, so I don’t see the necessity of this in US. The hashtag me too movement, actually should be including men, as well, because I’ve witnessed numerous condescending verbal comments that could be constituted as sexual harassment from men to other men, especially from men in power. But, culturally, this is supposed to be seen and interpreted as humor by men, and although cracking sex jokes and making fun of each other may be culturally a part of (especially young) male bonding behavior, or a subtle ways of establishing hierarchies, there is also a fine line between humor and actual harassment that may go so far as to pave the way to a hostile work environment. Perhaps it is up to the male to determine what sexual content is wanted or not.

As far as men being sexually harassed by women in the workplace, I have not seen that much of this behavior, perhaps because men usually are less inclined to perceive such behavior from women as “unwelcome”, but at the same time, I can see where certain men, especially those who’re in committed relationships (or position), and who’re unwilling to take any risks, may feel very uncomfortable around such women. Again, this is interpreted by the individual recipient as welcome or unwelcome behavior. In sexual harassment law, a witness may report to supervisor of an incidence of potential sexual harassment, but in reality, this is rarely done because there are many instances where people also date in the workplace (although some places, like military, also officially prohibit fraternization between different ranks).

I do not think that the employer generally cares for what’s going on in the personal lives of its employeees, per se, as long as it does not affect their work performance in the company, although people engaged in any kind of workplace drama may be seen as a potential liability to the employer, so it’s actually in the employer’s best interest to monitor and control employees behavior, not because it’s immoral or anything, but because it may potentially reduce the company's efficiency. So, I do not believe for a second that a company cares for the personal well-being and happiness of each and every one of its employee, as it may publicly so claim, except that these things may improve productivity, which is the real goal for the company, and it’s emoloyees being the means to that end. If robots could do the job with the same or better efficiency, and if the company’s final balance sheet showed better numbers, I bet the company wouldn’t even give it a second thought before switching to automation.
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Re: #Me Too! - thoughts on the subject

Postby Zero_Sum » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:20 pm

These sensational social movements by media organizations in the United States are all virtue signaling distractions from much greater problems within the United States.

It is meant to distract from government corruption, global military imperial ambitions, collapsing infrastructure, declining (collapsing) economy, rise of homelessness, wealth/economic inequality, nonstop war, lack of affordable healthcare, declining standards of living, lack of fair political representation, dark secretive malicious underpinnings of the government, shortened lifespans (premature mass death), and so on. All of that is too inconvenient to discuss in a public platform or forum socially in the United States so instead there are these controlled hysterical hit piece forms of virtue signaling like that of sexual abuse or harassment instead as a way of creating in public discussion within the United States an illusory sense of social morality in a nation that is in all reality completely devoid of.

Pretentious fake controlled articulations of social morality created for mass public consumption and disturbingly short memory attention spans for a nation that has none. All in all it is quite sad, depressing, and yet equally amusing at the same time. Of course this kind of hysteria, public demagoguery, and social pandemonium can be found historically in any declining(collapsing) nation existentially.

It is the last semblance of 'relevant' social discourse of a decadent nation who's twilight end is nearing or approaching.
"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-


"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
― Robert A. Heinlein


"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie
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Re: #Me Too! - thoughts on the subject

Postby Bob » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:41 am

Zero_Sum wrote:"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

I find the condition of man to be altogether far more complex than that. The cultural traditions of mankind has tried to capture the dilemma in various and differing myths and stories, most common to the west seems to be the Genesis story. I find that Jordan Petersen did an excellent explanation in his book “12 Rules for life” in the chapter “Treat yourself like someone you are responsible for helping”, whilst explaining why people tend to help others, even their pets, better than they help themselves. As a clinical psychologist, he’s found that people have a tendency to see others as more worthy, and explains that it seems that they know themselves too well because their thoughts are often very violent or otherwise malevolent. What is sometimes lacking is the understanding that everybody is carrying some burden or guilt.

On the other hand, there is a tendency to project the “evil” we discover in ourselves on to others, and interpret their behaviour in the terms of our experience with our own malevolence. We demonise the others in order to excuse ourselves for behaving in an otherwise inappropriate or even inexcusable manner. However, we know the true intent behind this projectioning, which increases the guilt but can at the same time advance to obsession or phobia. We can feel compelled to hate people we don’t even know.

There is no comparison today to the violence of the past, even in the most violent modern societies. We have learnt that it hampers our progress, but if we see no other means to progress, we will become violent. It is when people are put into situations in which they see no other way but to become violent that they do. Mostly this is done by manipulative forces, who themselves are outside of the fray, but believe they benefit from the violence of other. It that way, the condition you describe is a conditioning that we allow to rule our lives.


"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death." -Thomas Hobbes-

I can understand this coming from a man who lived when he did, living through the english civil war and being occupied with demonstrating the necessity of a strong central authority to avoid the evil of discord and the war that was going on as he wrote. However, there were those whose desire for power was restless and those who just tried to survive. Like I said above, there were always situations in which people were pushed and became instruments of others to achieve their goals.

"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“It is the victors who write history” is another way of saying this. It was also the privileged and wealthy.

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

This is true, most theologians are oblivious to how their theology sounds in the ears of the average human being. That is also true today, when evangelicals try to maintain a supposed objectivity in the Bible passages, rather than understanding that objective truth is a rather new invention. The people of biblical times were looking at everything from an experiential view and with survival in mind.

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
― Robert A. Heinlein

This is also true, but after Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it became apparent that, unless we only want cockroaches to inhabit the earth, we should curb our “naked force”, or face the consequences. It is also true in another sense. It is violence and naked force used to change our environment which may settle whether human beings have a future here.

"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

What can I say … ?

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie

This is increasingly true of many people who have chosen a Huxleyian “brave new world” over the reality of existence. It is understandable if we push aside the consequences. It is interesting that Huxley foresaw that economic chaos and unemployment will cause a radical reaction in society, even it hasn’t come in the form of an international scientific empire. The reality is just as worrying, however. In many countries there is hardly any ability, let alone a readiness to protect the “brave new world” we have created.

The people who attempt to retain a balanced view are often decried as extremist by both sides, and with the amount of disinformation going about, the rise of hysteria and social media, chaos is becoming more and more a reality.

It seems by these quotes that apart from certain statements you have made, we could have an understanding.

Zero_Sum wrote:These sensational social movements by media organizations in the United States are all virtue signaling distractions from much greater problems within the United States.

It is meant to distract from government corruption, global military imperial ambitions, collapsing infrastructure, declining (collapsing) economy, rise of homelessness, wealth/economic inequality, nonstop war, lack of affordable healthcare, declining standards of living, lack of fair political representation, dark secretive malicious underpinnings of the government, shortened lifespans (premature mass death), and so on. All of that is too inconvenient to discuss in a public platform or forum socially in the United States so instead there are these controlled hysterical hit piece forms of virtue signaling like that of sexual abuse or harassment instead as a way of creating in public discussion within the United States an illusory sense of social morality in a nation that is in all reality completely devoid of.

Pretentious fake controlled articulations of social morality created for mass public consumption and disturbingly short memory attention spans for a nation that has none. All in all it is quite sad, depressing, and yet equally amusing at the same time. Of course this kind of hysteria, public demagoguery, and social pandemonium can be found historically in any declining(collapsing) nation existentially.

It is the last semblance of 'relevant' social discourse of a decadent nation who's twilight end is nearing or approaching.

Whilst I agree that there is a lot being done to distract people from the reality that is overtaking us, I don’t think it is the #me too movement. This is more a long overdue uprising against sexism within the working environment, most especially within the entertainment business.

The points you have made here we could take up elsewhere.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
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Re: #Me Too! - thoughts on the subject

Postby MagsJ » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:43 am

Some experience things and events in life, that others do not and will never experience.. such qualia cannot be defined or labeled under the 'Me Too' banner.
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Re: #Me Too! - thoughts on the subject

Postby Bob » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:38 pm

Agreed ...
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
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Re: #Me Too! - thoughts on the subject

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:58 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:These sensational social movements by media organizations in the United States are all virtue signaling distractions from much greater problems within the United States.
That is may be used as a distraction and involve virtue signaling is not mutually exclusive with it being important and in face connected to other issues. People with power tend to think they can do whatever the fuck they want. They hide it, they lie about it. In this case it is about how they treat women. In other cases it deals with other kinds of abuse of power. It is a good trend that the stuff you do in secret when you have power is getting harder to hide.
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