## The Tax Bill

Discussion of the recent unfolding of history.

### The Tax Bill

This quoted bit includes notes about the recently approved version.

wiki wrote:
Plan elements

The Act as of early November 2017 includes the following elements, among others, as reported by The New York Times:

Individual income tax rates
Reduces the number of marginal income tax rate brackets from seven to four. This has the effect of reducing taxes for most income levels. The income thresholds below apply to married couples filing jointly:

The top 39.6% bracket would be elevated to income greater than $1 million, rather than above$480,050 under current law.
The 35% bracket would apply to income from $260,000 to$1 million; the 33% bracket would be eliminated. This also has the effect of increasing the marginal rate applied to income between $260,000 and$424,950.
The 25% bracket would apply to income from $90,000 to$260,000; the 28% bracket would be eliminated.
A new 12% bracket would apply to income from $0 to$89,999; the 15% bracket would be eliminated.
Standard deduction and personal exemption
Changes to deductions and credits will impact families differently depending on the their particular circumstances.

::

Nearly double the standard deduction, from $6,350 to$12,700. About 70% of families choose the standard deduction rather than itemized deductions; this could rise to over 84% if doubled.
Eliminate the personal exemption, a deduction based on the number of taxpayers and dependents on a return.
Increase child tax credit from $1,000 to$1,600.

Property tax deductions
Mortgage interest deduction for newly purchased homes would be capped at $500,000, while the property tax deduction would be capped at$10,000. This would have more impact on taxpayers with more expensive property, generally those who live in higher-income areas.
State and local taxes
The deduction for state and local income tax and sales tax will be completely eliminated. Eliminating these deductions would increase taxes relatively more in states with higher taxes.

Other individual provisions
Repeal the Alternative minimum tax (AMT). The AMT primarily causes households earning between $200,000 to$1 million to pay more in taxes, so repealing it is a tax cut for higher-income persons.
Repeal the estate tax after six years. In the interim, the inherited wealth exempt from tax would be increased from $5.5 million to$11 million.

Reduce the pass-through tax rate to 25% regardless of income level. Many businesses are incorporated as pass-through entities (e.g., sole proprietorships, partnerships, and S-corporations) meaning the owners pay taxes at individual rates. These represent 95% of businesses and most of corporate tax revenues, so this is a large tax cut for owners (i.e., capital as opposed to labor). Approximately the largest 2% of of pass-through businesses represent 40% of pass-through income and today are taxed at 39.6%, the top individual rate.

Corporate rates
The corporate tax rate would fall from 35% to 20% while eliminating most business deductions and credits. This change will bring the United States just below the average for advanced and larger economies.

Miscellaneous tax provisions
The Senate version of the bill contains a variety of miscellaneous tax provisions, many advantaging particular special interests. Miscellaneous provisions include:
A tax break for citrus growers, allowing them to deduct the cost of replanting "citrus plants lost or damaged due to causes like freezing, natural disaster or disease."

The extension of "full expensing," a favorable tax treatment provision for film and television production companies, to 2022. The provision allows such companies "to write-off the full cost of their investments in the first year." The Joint Committee on Taxation estimates that the extension will lead to the loss of about $1 billion in federal revenue per year. A provision ending a corporate tax exemption for certain international airlines with commercial flights to the United States (specifically, in cases where "the country where the foreign airline is headquartered doesn’t have a tax treaty with the U.S., and if major U.S. airliners make fewer than two weekly trips to that foreign country"). This provision is seen as likely to disadvantage Gulf airlines (such as Etihad, Emirates and Qatar Airways); major U.S. airlines have complained that the Gulf states provide unfair subsidies to those carriers. Reductions in excise taxes on alcohol for a two-year period. The Senate bill would reduce the tax on "the first 60,000 barrels of beer produced domestically by small brewers" from$7 to $3.50 and would reduce the tax on the first 6 million barrels produced from$18 to $16 per barrel. The Senate bill would also extend a tax credit on wine production to all wineries and would extend the credit to the producers and importers of sparkling wine as well. These provisions were supported by the alcohol lobby, specifically the Beer Institute, Wine Institute, and Distilled Spirits Council. The bill passed by the House eliminates a tax deduction for teacher expenses. The Senate bill, by contrast, would double the reduction, from$250 to $500. Arctic National Wildlife Refuge drilling In November 2017, the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources passed legislation introduced by Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski that would require the Interior Department to lease 800,000 acres of land within the coastal plain area of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) for oil and gas drilling. Republicans plan to fold this measure into the tax bill. The move is part of the long-running Arctic Refuge drilling controversy; Republicans have attempted to allow drilling in ANWR almost 50 times, but thus far without success. The move was criticized by Democrats and environmentalist groups such as the Wilderness Society. Repeal of Johnson Amendment Included in the tax bill passed by the House is a provision that would repeal the Johnson Amendment, a 1954 law that disallows churches and other nonprofit groups from endorsing political candidates or engaging in other partisan political activities, enforceable by loss of nonprofit status. The repeal has long been a key goal of the religious right, represented by groups such as the Family Research Council, Christian Coalition, Traditional Values Coalition, and Alliance Defending Freedom. Repeal is opposed by other religious leaders and organizations such as the United Methodist Church, National Council of Churches, and Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty, which oppose blurring the distinction between charitable and political activities. The nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation estimated that repeal of the Johnson Amendment could result in the diversion of up to "$1.7 billion each year from traditional political committees to churches and other nonprofit groups that could legally engage in partisan politics for the first time."

Unlike the House bill, the Senate version of the bill does not currently include any modification to the Johnson Amendment.

We see the Dems have negotiated some stuff away like the Johnson modification, which would indeed cost them sorely. In any case it looks like this bill does in fact bring relief for society in general. I think these are generally good changes that will definitely benefit the working class as well as the powerhouses of the economy. But thats my initial impression.

It certainly simplifies taxation structures and this is a good thing. It is bound to remove some possibilities for loopholes. And perhaps Varoufakis' old argument for lowering of corporate tax holds here then: at this rate, they might actually pay it.

In combination with the simplification of the order it isn't unthinkable that this will actually reduce the deficit.
Also I like that there are tax breaks for citrus growers. I suspect that more of these special provisions are very human and sensible and good for the country.

Google and other tech stocks dropped on the announcement of the bill passing, whereas real industry stocks went up. That too is a sign that the Bill favours reality and human interests.
Last edited by Fixed Cross on Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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### Re: The Tax Bill

even the non partisan CBO believes that this tax bill will blow
up the budget by over 1 TRILLION dollars... it will not increase growth
in any way, shape or form because its only function is to give the wealthy
a huge government giveaway... taking money from working and the working poor
and giving it to the wealthy.....OLIGARCHY... government of the rich, for the rich,
by the rich... the other stuff is just window dressing to make it look good....

Kropotkin
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### Re: The Tax Bill

Peter Kropotkin wrote:even the non partisan CBO believes that this tax bill will blow
up the budget by over 1 TRILLION dollars... it will not increase growth
in any way, shape or form because its only function is to give the wealthy
a huge government giveaway... taking money from working and the working poor
and giving it to the wealthy.....OLIGARCHY... government of the rich, for the rich,
by the rich... the other stuff is just window dressing to make it look good....

Kropotkin

You are getting a tax break, you ingrate.
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### Re: The Tax Bill

Nice. The bill throws a wrench in Silicon Valleys self-enrichment parasite scheme, by introducing taxes on the widely practiced equity-offering to new employees.

Of course these ultrawealthy tech companies are the main platforms for wholesale treason against the American People.
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### Re: The Tax Bill

Fixed Cross wrote:
Peter Kropotkin wrote:even the non partisan CBO believes that this tax bill will blow
up the budget by over 1 TRILLION dollars... it will not increase growth
in any way, shape or form because its only function is to give the wealthy
a huge government giveaway... taking money from working and the working poor
and giving it to the wealthy.....OLIGARCHY... government of the rich, for the rich,
by the rich... the other stuff is just window dressing to make it look good....

Kropotkin

You are getting a tax break, you ingrate.

K: you don't get it... it doesn't matter if I get a tax break or not... and trust me, the
tax break will be fairly small, because it wasn't done for me... it's window dressing to
hide the fact that the wealthy will get millions and I will get, at best, hundreds.....
it is pure redistribution of wealth from the middle class and working poor to the wealthy...
the same thing you decry except when the wealthy gets the money and the middle class
and working poor gets the shaft......

Kropotkin
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### Re: The Tax Bill

I have been reading the Bill, Peter, and what you say has nothing to do with what is actually in the Bill. I think you are reading the newspapers instead of the Bill. It is sad to see so many people taking sides against their own interests in favour of multi trillion syndicates of criminals.

By the way here is a "heat map" of the current Stockmarket. You can see the effects of the Bill.

Screen Shot 2017-12-02 at 4.50.46 PM.png (238.35 KiB) Viewed 1722 times

All in all this will boost the entire economy and make sure taxes on corporations can actually be collected.
What the Dems fail to tell you is that no one in that high bracket is actually paying now. So that whole increased deficit and bonus for the rich story you read isn't based on reality.

Its likely that a lot of Big Corp has been lobbying against it, falsely taking on the mask of the lower classes. This is in general what the Democrats are made of.
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### Re: The Tax Bill

Side note - you would like Norway. They not only tax proportionally but also fine proportionally. A very wealthy person got a traffic fine and had to pay some 20 000 dollars, a percentage of her annual income.
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### Re: The Tax Bill

The tax bill: The wealthiest taxes are cut or pay little to no taxes. Everybody else sees tax increases.
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### Re: The Tax Bill

Dems didn't negotiate parts of the bill away, none of them were going to vote for it from the start and everybody knew this. They had no say in the bill at all. Unless by "Democrats" you mean Susan Collins and John McCain.

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### Re: The Tax Bill

Peter Kropotkin wrote:it's window dressing to
hide the fact that the wealthy will get millions and I will get, at best, hundreds.....
it is pure redistribution of wealth from the middle class and working poor to the wealthy...

Letting rich people keep a greater percentage of their money and letting the middle class keep a greater percentage of their money does not in any way 'redistribute wealth from the middle class to the wealthy'.

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### Re: The Tax Bill

I like it but unless there is a massive cut in spending to go with it, all we are doing is increasing the national debt and will end up just monetizing that debt which is basically a tax. Basically, you can't have all these government services without someone paying for them. There is no way around that.
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### Re: The Tax Bill

LogicalMetaphysician wrote:I like it but unless there is a massive cut in spending to go with it, all we are doing is increasing the national debt and will end up just monetizing that debt which is basically a tax. Basically, you can't have all these government services without someone paying for them. There is no way around that.

It's called the Federal Reserve, they'll add more 1's and 0's where voila everything gets paid for with an infinite amount of debt. A debt that poor low income fools will be forced to pay while the rich slip away.
The temple mount will be rebuilt in Jerusalem and all the nations of the world will be ruled from there. All races, cultures, leaders, and nations will come to bow before the new messiah yet to come. All will come to know the chosen of God who refer themselves as Jews. For every Jew there will be a thousand goyim that will be their slaves as it was ordained by God. Every man, woman, and child will convert to Zionism.

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### Re: The Tax Bill

Uccisore wrote:
Peter Kropotkin wrote:it's window dressing to
hide the fact that the wealthy will get millions and I will get, at best, hundreds.....
it is pure redistribution of wealth from the middle class and working poor to the wealthy...

Letting rich people keep a greater percentage of their money and letting the middle class keep a greater percentage of their money does not in any way 'redistribute wealth from the middle class to the wealthy'.

K: now I can't help it if you aren't smart enough to see this massive redistribution of wealth,
for what it is.... it won't create jobs, it won't increase the economy, it won't help
the middle class in any way, shape or form and it will help turn American into the
the hot mess that is Kansas... and Kansas was destroyed by massive tax cuts
and now its pretty much a hell hole.....it will take them years to get Kansas
back to a functional state....

Kropotkin
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### Re: The Tax Bill

Peter Kropotkin wrote:
Uccisore wrote:
Peter Kropotkin wrote:it's window dressing to
hide the fact that the wealthy will get millions and I will get, at best, hundreds.....
it is pure redistribution of wealth from the middle class and working poor to the wealthy...

Letting rich people keep a greater percentage of their money and letting the middle class keep a greater percentage of their money does not in any way 'redistribute wealth from the middle class to the wealthy'.

K: now I can't help it if you aren't smart enough to see this massive redistribution of wealth,
for what it is.... it won't create jobs, it won't increase the economy, it won't help
the middle class in any way, shape or form and it will help turn American into the
the hot mess that is Kansas... and Kansas was destroyed by massive tax cuts
and now its pretty much a hell hole.....it will take them years to get Kansas
back to a functional state....

Kropotkin

Actually, Kansas does not have its own reserve currency, or even its own currency at all for that matter, so it isn't that great of a comparison. Like I said, this will just end up being more monetized debt if they do not cut spending as well. Unless the U.S. loses their reserve status, that still won't cause economic collapse, but it WILL hurt poor people a lot more than rich people because the poor are the most affected by inflation.
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### Re: The Tax Bill

Zero_Sum wrote:
LogicalMetaphysician wrote:I like it but unless there is a massive cut in spending to go with it, all we are doing is increasing the national debt and will end up just monetizing that debt which is basically a tax. Basically, you can't have all these government services without someone paying for them. There is no way around that.

It's called the Federal Reserve, they'll add more 1's and 0's where voila everything gets paid for with an infinite amount of debt. A debt that poor low income fools will be forced to pay while the rich slip away.

One question I have on this - How does the national debt effect me (the individual)? The national debt has grown my whole life, yet I am profoundly unaware of how the increasing number (supposedly negatively) effects me. The answer to this would go towards taking a comprehensive look at the tax bill.
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### Re: The Tax Bill

demoralized wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:
LogicalMetaphysician wrote:I like it but unless there is a massive cut in spending to go with it, all we are doing is increasing the national debt and will end up just monetizing that debt which is basically a tax. Basically, you can't have all these government services without someone paying for them. There is no way around that.

It's called the Federal Reserve, they'll add more 1's and 0's where voila everything gets paid for with an infinite amount of debt. A debt that poor low income fools will be forced to pay while the rich slip away.

One question I have on this - How does the national debt effect me (the individual)? The national debt has grown my whole life, yet I am profoundly unaware of how the increasing number (supposedly negatively) effects me. The answer to this would go towards taking a comprehensive look at the tax bill.

Because at a certain point the monetary system collapses and everybody loses all their monetary gains or abilities.
The temple mount will be rebuilt in Jerusalem and all the nations of the world will be ruled from there. All races, cultures, leaders, and nations will come to bow before the new messiah yet to come. All will come to know the chosen of God who refer themselves as Jews. For every Jew there will be a thousand goyim that will be their slaves as it was ordained by God. Every man, woman, and child will convert to Zionism.

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### Re: The Tax Bill

I'm so glad corporations are getting the most tax cuts and credits. I'm fully waiting for trickle down all over my face. I think I will try to bring an umbrella just in case.
The temple mount will be rebuilt in Jerusalem and all the nations of the world will be ruled from there. All races, cultures, leaders, and nations will come to bow before the new messiah yet to come. All will come to know the chosen of God who refer themselves as Jews. For every Jew there will be a thousand goyim that will be their slaves as it was ordained by God. Every man, woman, and child will convert to Zionism.

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### Re: The Tax Bill

Fixed Cross wrote:Its likely that a lot of Big Corp has been lobbying against it, falsely taking on the mask of the lower classes. This is in general what the Democrats are made of.

That's hilarious. Think about what you said for a bit. I'm sure you have in the past, but obviously it didn't do you any good.
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### Re: The Tax Bill

Uccisore wrote:
Peter Kropotkin wrote:it's window dressing to
hide the fact that the wealthy will get millions and I will get, at best, hundreds.....
it is pure redistribution of wealth from the middle class and working poor to the wealthy...

Letting rich people keep a greater percentage of their money and letting the middle class keep a greater percentage of their money does not in any way 'redistribute wealth from the middle class to the wealthy'.

The so called middle class only "keeps a greater percentage of their money" if you ignore all the social programs that will be affected by reduced funding when these tax cuts inevitably fail to produce enough revenue to fund them. Then they get to spend that money on overpriced garbage internet, awful healthcare, etc.

The rich get to take their tax cuts and dump it back into politics to further secure their oligarch status.
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### Re: The Tax Bill

demoralized wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:
LogicalMetaphysician wrote:I like it but unless there is a massive cut in spending to go with it, all we are doing is increasing the national debt and will end up just monetizing that debt which is basically a tax. Basically, you can't have all these government services without someone paying for them. There is no way around that.

It's called the Federal Reserve, they'll add more 1's and 0's where voila everything gets paid for with an infinite amount of debt. A debt that poor low income fools will be forced to pay while the rich slip away.

One question I have on this - How does the national debt effect me (the individual)? The national debt has grown my whole life, yet I am profoundly unaware of how the increasing number (supposedly negatively) effects me. The answer to this would go towards taking a comprehensive look at the tax bill.

Well for one thing, governments rely on the ability to utilize credit. Taxes are slow, and spending is fast. Unless you want to run a big surplus of cash just sitting in some government bank (super ineffecient), you have to run some kind of debt to spend money freely. On the other hand, interest kills.
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### Re: The Tax Bill

Uccisore wrote:
Peter Kropotkin wrote:it's window dressing to
hide the fact that the wealthy will get millions and I will get, at best, hundreds.....
it is pure redistribution of wealth from the middle class and working poor to the wealthy...

Letting rich people keep a greater percentage of their money and letting the middle class keep a greater percentage of their money does not in any way 'redistribute wealth from the middle class to the wealthy'.

The upper middle class and the wealthy of the United States have been screwing over the poor working class for decades that does all the physical laboring, once you kill the golden goose that no longer lays any golden eggs this country is toast. Foreign immigration and outsourcing jobs isn't going to cut it anymore especially when you have no tax base to fund even the most basic public services of society including the government itself. If you kill the consumer you have no consumerism economy, no service economy, and no market system.

What really upsets me about these conversations is that nobody talks about the working class anymore, it's always about the middle class (managerial class) and the wealthy (corporate production owners). I for one don't give a damn about the middle class or the wealthy who have been stealing from the American working class for decades. (Since the 1960's) It is the majority of low income working class Americans that outnumber both the middle class and the wealthy but there is not a single politician that represents it where that is the most outrageous facet in all of this. The working class is the majority of the population!

When will American politicians represent the population majority of low income members of the working class? You can ignore the elephant in the room for only so long at your own peril but soon reality will have its day in the sun where no matter of denial or obstruction will hinder any of that. Keep in mind we are dealing with forty five years of stagnant wages for the working class in this country and if you think you can ignore or imagine that away out of sight you're delusional.

In many ways the wealthy class has preyed upon the middle class but the only thing both groups can agree on is preying upon or carving up the working class amongst themselves. (Fuck the middle class and the upper ruling class also!) (Fuck them both!)

This tax bill is a huge benefit to wealthy corporate business owners and the managerial middle class (middle men) where as usual the working class is left in the cold with nothing once again. A great day of reckoning will eventually come where a decimated working class will retaliate for the years of economic bondage and slavery it has been put into the last fifty years. There's a reason why most of the working class doesn't believe in politics, politicians, or the government anymore and this sentiment isn't going to go away either as its livelihood is being stripped away with every year. If anybody tries to increase the taxes on an already burdened lower working class while giving tax cuts to both the middle and upper classes that will finally be the lit of this fuse to what otherwise will be an explosive situation. Since this country is ruled by morons who are only concerned with their own avarice and selfishness I have no doubt whatsoever that fuse will be lit eventually.
The temple mount will be rebuilt in Jerusalem and all the nations of the world will be ruled from there. All races, cultures, leaders, and nations will come to bow before the new messiah yet to come. All will come to know the chosen of God who refer themselves as Jews. For every Jew there will be a thousand goyim that will be their slaves as it was ordained by God. Every man, woman, and child will convert to Zionism.

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### Re: The Tax Bill

Peter Kropotkin wrote:
K: now I can't help it if you aren't smart enough to see this massive redistribution of wealth,
for what it is.... it won't create jobs, it won't increase the economy, it won't help
the middle class in any way, shape or form and it will help turn American into the
the hot mess that is Kansas... and Kansas was destroyed by massive tax cuts
and now its pretty much a hell hole.....it will take them years to get Kansas
back to a functional state....

Kropotkin

You just listed a whole bunch of things the tax bill isn't, but what you didn't do is explain in any way, shape, or form how it is amounts to 'wealth redistribution to the wealthy'. Could it be that this is just a DNC talking point and we aren't supposed to think about it too much?

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### Re: The Tax Bill

Zero_Sum wrote:What really upsets me about these conversations is that nobody talks about the working class anymore,

Of course people talk about the working class. The DNC has been screaming at them and calling them racist misogynists for a year straight because they voted the wrong way. Where have you been? Anyway, I'm still waiting to hear how a tax cut is 'wealth redistrubition' to the rich. That IS the comment you replied to.

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### Re: The Tax Bill

Its a fairy tale go and think one party is better then any other, or to think that one party prganization or another is ahead of looting the treasury. Holding Trump to the acid test of financial benefits , is like saying that not all of it is about the money, and the difference with Trump is , that his actions unabashedly reveal the reason for America First: , an honest purvayance of what world Capitalism is all about. Its time! Lets be honest to ourselves.
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### Re: The Tax Bill

Zero_Sum wrote:I'm so glad corporations are getting the most tax cuts and credits. I'm fully waiting for trickle down all over my face. I think I will try to bring an umbrella just in case.

How can you like Trump and not like Trickle down economics?
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