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Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:33 pm
by WendyDarling
Is anything in science not based on a theory regarding origins?

Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:34 pm
by Ecmandu
Peter,

We can demonstrate gravity.

We've never seen speciation. Ever.

You clearly don't understand that speciation is the branching of reproductive organisms such that they can no longer reproduce with each other or exchange DNA ...

Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:36 pm
by mannikin
maybe scientists are just using the evidence for micro evolution and passing it off as valid for macro?

Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:38 pm
by Ecmandu
mannikin wrote:maybe scientists are just using the evidence for micro evolution and passing it off as valid for macro?


There is no such thing as micro evolution...

That's just adaptation.

Evolution is speciation. Defined solely by the ability to reproduce or not

Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:42 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
Ecmandu wrote:Peter,

We can demonstrate gravity.

We've never seen speciation. Ever.

You clearly don't understand that speciation is the branching of reproductive organisms such that they can no longer reproduce with each other or exchange DNA ...



K: and we can demonstrate speciation in the same way as gravity.....

Kropotkin

Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:46 pm
by Ecmandu
Peter Kropotkin wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Peter,

We can demonstrate gravity.

We've never seen speciation. Ever.

You clearly don't understand that speciation is the branching of reproductive organisms such that they can no longer reproduce with each other or exchange DNA ...



K: and we can demonstrate speciation in the same way as gravity.....

Kropotkin


Everyone in the world can drop a quarter to the ground.

Nobody in the world has ever seen speciation.

You really are ignorant about this topic.

See... The problem I have with people is this:

They need a fucking religion.

We only have 2.

God or evolution.

If they rejected god, then they need evolution ...

If they don't have either, they don't know what to do with themselves!

Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:51 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
clearly I am arguing with someone who is dumber then dirt
and I'm sorry to compare you with dirt because at least dirt is good for
something......

Kropotkin

Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:55 pm
by Ecmandu
Peter Kropotkin wrote:clearly I am arguing with someone who is dumber then dirt
and I'm sorry to compare you with dirt because at least dirt is good for
something......

Kropotkin


Dumber than dirt...

You asserted an argument without expounding upon why the argument is true.

Anyone can do that.

Grass is purple. The sky is neon green. You're an idiot.

Evolution is RELIGION peter. It's not a fucking fact

Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:20 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
Ecmandu wrote:
Peter Kropotkin wrote:clearly I am arguing with someone who is dumber then dirt
and I'm sorry to compare you with dirt because at least dirt is good for
something......

Kropotkin


Dumber than dirt...

You asserted an argument without expounding upon why the argument is true.

Anyone can do that.

Grass is purple. The sky is neon green. You're an idiot.

Evolution is RELIGION peter. It's not a fucking fact


K: it is not a fact but a theory and it is not a religion.... it is science
I have already given you an argument for speciation in an earlier post and if you '
had read that you would know.....and as for your anti-science beliefs....
you know I think there is an flat earth society meeting
in your area that is begging for you to attend.....go be with your people there...

Kropotkin

Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:23 pm
by Ecmandu
Peter Kropotkin wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:
Peter Kropotkin wrote:clearly I am arguing with someone who is dumber then dirt
and I'm sorry to compare you with dirt because at least dirt is good for
something......

Kropotkin


Dumber than dirt...

You asserted an argument without expounding upon why the argument is true.

Anyone can do that.

Grass is purple. The sky is neon green. You're an idiot.

Evolution is RELIGION peter. It's not a fucking fact


K: it is not a fact but a theory and it is not a religion.... it is science
I have already given you an argument for speciation in an earlier post and if you '
had read that you would know.....and as for your anti-science beliefs....
you know I think there is an flat earth society meeting
in your area that is begging for you to attend.....go be with your people there...

Kropotkin


Peter, you really know nothing about science.

Nobody in 1.3 million years has observed evolution, even with tools.

Nobody.

That doesn't mean it's false...

You're an absurd person peter

Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:32 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
E: Dumber than dirt...

You asserted an argument without expounding upon why the argument is true.

Anyone can do that.

Grass is purple. The sky is neon green. You're an idiot.

Evolution is RELIGION peter. It's not a fucking fact[/quote]

K: it is not a fact but a theory and it is not a religion.... it is science
I have already given you an argument for speciation in an earlier post and if you '
had read that you would know.....and as for your anti-science beliefs....
you know I think there is an flat earth society meeting
in your area that is begging for you to attend.....go be with your people there...

Kropotkin[/quote]

Peter, you really know nothing about science.

Nobody in 1.3 million years has observed evolution, even with tools.

Nobody.

That doesn't mean it's false...

You're an absurd person peter[/quote

K: YES, THEY HAVE OBSERVED EVOLUTION..... it happens every single day....
when a child is born with different characteristic then their parents,
that is evolution.... it is really not that hard to understand unless
you are as you clearly are.... a religious fundamentalist who thinks the
bible is the only word possible... the earth is 6000 years old and all that...
perhaps a philosophy site is wrong for you... try a fundamentalist site...
that might be more your style.....

Kropotkin

Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:39 pm
by Ecmandu
Peter Kropotkin wrote:E: Dumber than dirt...

You asserted an argument without expounding upon why the argument is true.

Anyone can do that.

Grass is purple. The sky is neon green. You're an idiot.

Evolution is RELIGION peter. It's not a fucking fact


K: it is not a fact but a theory and it is not a religion.... it is science
I have already given you an argument for speciation in an earlier post and if you '
had read that you would know.....and as for your anti-science beliefs....
you know I think there is an flat earth society meeting
in your area that is begging for you to attend.....go be with your people there...

Kropotkin[/quote]

Peter, you really know nothing about science.

Nobody in 1.3 million years has observed evolution, even with tools.

Nobody.

That doesn't mean it's false...

You're an absurd person peter[/quote

K: YES, THEY HAVE OBSERVED EVOLUTION..... it happens every single day....
when a child is born with different characteristic then their parents,
that is evolution.... it is really not that hard to understand unless
you are as you clearly are.... a religious fundamentalist who thinks the
bible is the only word possible... the earth is 6000 years old and all that...
perhaps a philosophy site is wrong for you... try a fundamentalist site...
that might be more your style.....

Kropotkin[/quote]

That's not speciation Peter, that's adaptation ...

You need to get your terms straight...

All those different birds on the Galapagos that were recorded can still mate with each other. They had ADAPTATION differences. Not speciation!!

When a child is born different than it's parents, it can still have offspring with it's parents or others from the same SPECIES!!

Peter, honestly, I'm talking to you like a 5 year old right now.

Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:41 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
Ecmandu wrote:
Peter Kropotkin wrote:E: Dumber than dirt...

You asserted an argument without expounding upon why the argument is true.

Anyone can do that.

Grass is purple. The sky is neon green. You're an idiot.

Evolution is RELIGION peter. It's not a fucking fact


K: it is not a fact but a theory and it is not a religion.... it is science
I have already given you an argument for speciation in an earlier post and if you '
had read that you would know.....and as for your anti-science beliefs....
you know I think there is an flat earth society meeting
in your area that is begging for you to attend.....go be with your people there...

Kropotkin


Peter, you really know nothing about science.

Nobody in 1.3 million years has observed evolution, even with tools.

Nobody.

That doesn't mean it's false...

You're an absurd person peter[/quote

K: YES, THEY HAVE OBSERVED EVOLUTION..... it happens every single day....
when a child is born with different characteristic then their parents,
that is evolution.... it is really not that hard to understand unless
you are as you clearly are.... a religious fundamentalist who thinks the
bible is the only word possible... the earth is 6000 years old and all that...
perhaps a philosophy site is wrong for you... try a fundamentalist site...
that might be more your style.....

Kropotkin[/quote]

That's not speciation Peter, that's adaptation ...

You need to get your terms straight...

All those different birds on the Galapagos that were recorded can still mate with each other. They had ADAPTATION differences. Not speciation!!

When a child is born different than it's parents, it can still have offspring with it's parents or others from the same SPECIES!!

Peter, honestly, I'm talking to you like a 5 year old right now.[/quote]

K:ummmmm, I am trying to explain something very easy to a fucking moron...
ok, you don't know what speciation is and you don't know what adaptation is
because adaptation is about environmental adaptation, adapting to the environment
a species finds itself in.... when a child is born, it has different characteristic
then the parents, that is a function of evolution.. that is how different traits
are inherited... traits that allow one to function in any given environment.....
and traits that are successful and allows one to function in any given environment
are then passed along to the next generation.....
(but this is the randomness of evolution in that we cannot predict which
traits will be passed on to the next generation and this is part of the
confusion people have with evolution... they don't understand how randomness
plays a role in evolution, both in the inherited traits and in which traits
will be useful in a given environment) if you are different then your parents...then
you are part of evolution.. you were passed traits that will allow you to adapt to
a given environment and if the human race is very unlucky, you will pass those traits
along to the next generation... that is evolution is...passing of traits and how those
traits allow you to adapt to your environment.....natural selection is the second part of
the equation but you don't even get the first part....... so why waste time
trying to get you to understand something that is clearly beyond you.......

Kropotkin

Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:57 pm
by humunculus
Ecmandu wrote:Of course not. That's why evolution is considered a theory and not a fact.

I suppose this was supposed to be a response to my second question:
Does this mean we have to throw out all products of genetic research, or just the currently accepted taxonomy?

At least the first half. It still doesn't specify what parts of the research to keep and regard as valid. Nor does it answer the second part about taxonomy: Keep the present system; revert to 1850? Make up a new one that ignores evolution? Or what?

And it completely ignores the primary question:
And the failure of bacteria to meet your criteria for speciation (or mate, for that matter) proves that all evolutionary theory is wrong...
and should be replaced by - what, exactly?

You say it's a theory and not a fact. You've gone to some trouble to discredit the theory.
Well, what are the facts, in your view?
Short of facts, what is a better alternative working theory that would fit with whichever bits you want to keep of the current state of scientific research ?

Just repeating "You're all stupid, no it isn't." really doesn't convince anyone that you have the tiniest glimmer of a microscopic clue what you're talking about.

Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:36 am
by Ecmandu
Peter is being belligerent in quite a frightening way ...

I don't discredit the theory at all.

I'm simply saying, it's not a fact.

It's not very controversial to say that.

Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:59 am
by humunculus
Ecmandu wrote:Peter is being belligerent in quite a frightening way ...

I guess you must have a very low intimidation threshold. He looks mostly frustrated to me - and if my ancient faculties can be trusted, he wasn't the first one to start calling names.
BTAIM....

I don't discredit the theory at all.

Huh. Didn't succeed, obviously. Sure made a good show of trying to.

I'm simply saying, it's not a fact.

It's not very controversial to say that.

Then why bother saying it, over and over?
And why offer such feeble counter-arguments?

Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:10 am
by Ecmandu
He's telling me that speciation is that offspring are slightly different. He's telling me I don't know what adaptation is even though I'm the first one to talk about it exactly how he talks about it I.e. Galapagos finches.

I now think you're deluded as he is ...

All I've been arguing is that evolution (defined by speciation) is considered a theory and not a fact.

It answers the op perfectly in terms of what is true.

He doesn't even know that speciation is about reproductive capacity.

Now you are both absurd

Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:08 am
by humunculus
Ecmandu wrote:He's telling me that speciation is that offspring are slightly different.

Nope. That's not at all what he said.
All I've been arguing is that evolution (defined by speciation)

You define it that way. Who else does?

It answers the op perfectly in terms of what is true.

Where does the hoax come in?
He doesn't even know that speciation is about reproductive capacity.

Yes, he does. Only, he puts the horses before the cart.
At first they could interbreed; after a long isolation of two populations, they had changed so much (through mutation and selection) that they no longer could.
Ta-ra! New species.

It's complicated in practice, and takes a long time, but the concept is simple.
Unfortunately, bacteria can't ever interbreed. Maybe you've been looking at the wrong life-form.

Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:52 am
by A Shieldmaiden
The truth is despite many many years of researching and experimenting scientists still do not have a 'workable' explanation of how life could start. In fact some scientists are now suggesting life must have originated from outer space, which is called panspermia. An example of this comes from Sir Fred Hoyle, who accepted the impossibility of life arising spontaneously by chance and published a book, Evolution from Space. Then there is the much lauded, revered and very vocal advocate of evolution, Richard Dawkins. He also, when interviewed by Ben Stein, was asked to explain how life could have started. He could not explain this by reference to physical or biological causes so resorted to and conceded that a possible explanation was that the first life came here from somewhere else. Outer space.


https://youtu.be/AiVoS78lNqM

No one has been able to set up an experiment and make one type of organism evolve into a new type of organism (unless one deliberately removes genetic information or inserts genetic information from another organism, neither of which is true evolution).

Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:27 am
by ravencry4all
"Or a very elaborated hoax upon mankind? "
You kidding, right?
To be this self-centered and ignorant in a philosophy forum is astonishing.
Who on earth said anything about mankind when it comes to evolution like we are something special.
Evolution is not a exercise to create humans.
It is not a hoax against the creator.
Based on the main activity in evolution, I say it is the survival instinct of the Universe.
The creation of a higher level consciousness through trial and error against the reality of an unforgiving environment.

Here on Earth, now, it is us.
For how long ? who knows.
What is next ? who cares if it is not us.
Will we fight ? no difference.

One thing is for certain - maybe two - denial of evolution is hindering our survival because this can explain many of our problems and help to find solutions.

If there is a creator, what if it does not like you?

Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:28 am
by humunculus
A Shieldmaiden wrote:The truth is despite many many years of researching and experimenting scientists still do not have a 'workable' explanation of how life could start.

There are several workable explanations, but no proof. Three and a half billion years later, scattered all over the globe, evidence becomes pretty hard to collect.
Not having every single datum nailed down doesn't invalidate the preponderance of evidence for the case.
Creationists make out that science is an all-or-nothing proposition; that if they can shed some doubt about one little piece of the puzzle, the whole theory falls apart.
It doesn't. And they haven't. They're mostly making a lot of noise over their own misconceptions and distortions.
(It's as if they thought they were in court and all they had to do was convince one juror out of twelve that there is reasonable doubt. Science doesn't work that way. It works by piling up numbers, observations, measurements, descriptions, statistics, more numbers, specimens, diagrams, experimental findings, patterns, adjustments, corrections, and some more numbers.)

In fact some scientists are now suggesting life must have originated from outer space, which is called panspermia.

It's one suggestion been kicking around quite a while. It's possible, I suppose.
Does that possibility affect the process of evolution in some way? If so, how?

No one has been able to set up an experiment and make one type of organism evolve into a new type of organism

Whether this is true depends on what you mean by "type of organism". Beetles are unlikely ever to turn into orchids and, in the time-span available to experimenters, fruit flies won't grow into beetles - even if they had some tangible motivation to do so.
In what way does this reflect on a 25-million-year process?

(unless one deliberately removes genetic information or inserts genetic information from another organism, neither of which is true evolution).

It's not supposed to be. But the genetic information, the way it's organized and accessed, sheds a good deal of light on the means and method of 'true' evolutionary processes.

Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:41 am
by James S Saint
    There is no chef.
    What caused the cake and the pie? The chef or the oven? If merely the oven, shouldn't we see cake-pies or pie-cakes in development? Which led to which? How did one ever evolve into the other?

Can a conversation get more ridiculously ignorant?

Evolution is not "Science". Evolution is a principle theorized as A cause of life in all of its forms. Evolution is worshiped by atheists as the First Cause of life, their "God".

But what is the cause of evolution?

Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:44 am
by humunculus
James S Saint wrote:[list]There is no chef.
What caused the cake and the pie? The chef or the oven? If merely the oven, shouldn't we see cake-pies or pie-cakes in development? Which led to which? How did one ever evolve into the other?


Can a conversation get more ridiculously ignorant?

Than what you said about baking? I seriously doubt it.

Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:46 am
by WendyDarling
:lol:

Re: Is evolution true?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:47 am
by James S Saint
James S Saint wrote:Evolution is not "Science". Evolution is a principle theorized as A cause of life in all of its forms. Evolution is worshiped by atheists as the First Cause of life, their "God".

But what is the cause of evolution?