Analytic Truth-Value

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Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:12 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Magnus Anderson wrote:Theory is a description of a procedure that can be used to generate predictions using given parameters.

That is called a "hypothesis".

As we have discussed before .. try to get your words right and perhaps others won't seem as moronic as you acuse. And perhaps you will appear less so to them as well.

Magnus Anderson wrote:Theories can be created any way you want, but if they are to be of practical value, they must be grounded in prior observations

You have no idea of what is required of theories.


If he had said accurate predictions, it would have been theory... I think Magnus understood that to be implied.
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Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby Magnus Anderson » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:59 pm

No, that wasn't implied. There is no need to say "accurate predictions". Any procedure that can be used to generate predictions is a theory even if all of its predictions turn out to be false.

Of course, that does not mean that theories are equal. Among other things, theories are differentiated by their truth value which is expressed as a set of tested predictions. This was covered in my post but was ignored.

Language isn't perfect. Words have multiple meanings. Naturally, considering that the number of concepts far exceeds the number of words. Words lag behind concepts.

By focusing on words, rather than on concepts they represent, you prove yourself to be a herd animal.

James is a logician, not a philosopher.

Logicians study different ways in which reality can be represented and these representations manipulated. To this end, no external reality is required. Only representations are required, which is to say, only virtual sandbox that is human brain is required.

Philosophers, on the other hand, study external reality. They make observations and then create theories that fit these observations, which is to say, that predict these observations retroactively.

Logicians live in their heads.
Philosophers live in the outside world.
I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
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Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby James S Saint » Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:18 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:Logicians study different ways in which reality can be represented and these representations manipulated.

That would be a "metaphysicist". A logician doesn't care anything about reality at all, rather merely consistency in the language of reasoning, much the same as a mathematician (logic applied to quantities).

Magnus Anderson wrote:To this end, no external reality is required. Only representations are required, which is to say, only virtual sandbox that is human brain is required.

If "the end" was merely a fantasy ontology, you would be right. But there is such a thing as a useful ontology. When an ontology isn't useful, because it doesn't represent reality sufficiently, it is ignored (or used merely for fictional stories).

And since your indirect implication is that RM:Affectance Ontology is merely a mental jigsaw puzzle, realize that RM:AO very precisely adheres to the observations of modern Science. The difference is only in the understanding of WHY physics works the way it does, thus extending to answer formerly unresolved questions (such as the Young Double Slit experiment).

Rational Metaphysics requires three fundamental things:
  • 1) Coherent ontology (utilizing Definitional Logic for clarity)
  • 2) Scientific methodology (to ensure the ontology tracks reality)
  • 3) Resolution Debating (so as to ensure that nothing has been left out or mistaken).
All in all, it is more assured to be exactly and precisely true to reality than any form of science or religion has ever been.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby Magnus Anderson » Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:36 pm

This isn't about what RM:AO is. This is about what theories are. Insofar you insist that theories, fundamentally, are something other than a set of instructions on how to generate predictions given certain parameters, I insist that you are delusional.
I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
-- Mr. Reasonable
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Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:26 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:This isn't about what RM:AO is. This is about what theories are. Insofar you insist that theories, fundamentally, are something other than a set of instructions on how to generate predictions given certain parameters, I insist that you are delusional.


Magnus, all a theory is, is a hypothesis that's been falsified.

I agree with James, that you are defining hypothesis as theory ...
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Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby Magnus Anderson » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:34 pm

I start with a concept then search for a word that best suits it.

Because there are many more concepts than there are words, I am forced to either invent new words or use one and the same word for different concepts. I choose the latter.

Theory as I define it is different from both scientific hypothesis and scientific theory.

My concept of theory is broad.
Scientific concept of theory is specific.
Scientific concept of hypothesis is also specific.

My concept of theory includes both scientific theories and scientific hypotheses. Both are considered theories.

Can't you understand this?

The goal is to understand what these "things" -- hypotheses, theories, etc -- fundamentally are. What they have in common.

And each one of them is a procedure that can be used to generate predictions based on some input parameters.

Each one of them has a truth value that is expressed as a set of tested predictions.

Each one of them is universally applicable, meaning, each predicts an infinite number of predictions, meaning, each has a conditional, finite, limited, relative truth value.

None of these "things" are thus absolute unless their scope is limited to a finite number of predictions. (Which again proves that truth is relative, limited, finite, conditional.)
I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
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Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:48 pm

You can stretch hypothesis to theory by saying that the hypothesis is what we call anecdotal evidence, which is still falsified evidence.

But in language, even the concepts anecdotal and statistically significant are separated.

Given this, I don't think your definition encompasses theory and hypothesis both
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Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby Magnus Anderson » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:30 pm

You make no sense.

What is falsified evidence? How can you falsify evidence?
What does hypothesis have to do with anecdotal evidence or any other kind of evidence?
What does theory have to do with evidence? not to mention falsified evidence?

Where am I?
What is this place?
I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
-- Mr. Reasonable
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Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:35 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:You make no sense.

What is falsified evidence? How can you falsify evidence?
What does hypothesis have to do with anecdotal evidence or any other kind of evidence?
What does theory have to do with evidence? not to mention falsified evidence?

Where am I?
What is this place?


Falsified evidence is what conforms an inference about causality between two conceptual observations. Evidence doesn't have to be falsified to be evidence of something. For example, a blood sample is evidence, but may never be falsified for a crime .
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Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby James S Saint » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:06 pm

A theory is an abstract principle, the metaphysics.

A theory might say that masses attract each other. A hypothesis (a subset of theory) would then be to state that if one was to hang a small mass very close to a very large mass, the small mass would measurably move closer to the large mass. The experiment would be the actual exercise of testing the hypothesis that was based upon the theory.

The theory is falsifiable when an experiment can be arranged that would prove the theory false if it was indeed false. Some theories are so ambiguous and vague that no experiment could disprove the theory whether it was false or not. The Big Bang theory, for example, is not falsifiable through experiment and thus isn't real science. The BB is actually merely conjecture.

  • Theory
  • Hypothesis
  • Experiment
  • Analysis


And "falsifiable evidence" would be evidence that could be proven to be false evidence if it really was false, as opposed to proposed evidence that could not be verified in any way.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25609
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:16 pm

I disagree...

Hypothesis is effectively an observation of causality ...

Always from anecdotal falsification (otherwise we couldn't even conceptualize it) - the principle is then expanded to a theory, which is a universalization of the hypothesis. Then the universalization comes into question as people ponder how to falsify universalizations!!

My point, hypothesis comes before theory, not the other way around
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Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby James S Saint » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:28 pm

Ecmandu wrote:I disagree...

There's a shocker.

Do you formulate a theory based upon a thesis?
Or do you write a thesis concerning a theory?

A hypothesis is a "hypo-thesis", an underlying thesis concerning a theory.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25609
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:13 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:I disagree...

There's a shocker.

Do you formulate a theory based upon a thesis?
Or do you write a thesis concerning a theory?

A hypothesis is a "hypo-thesis", an underlying thesis concerning a theory.


Are you trying to play etymology games with me??

Language evolves, and so should you.

Hypo means "without"

What on earth does "without thesis" have to do with how we use the term hypothesis?

Maybe someone screwed up, who knows..

This is becoming absurd now.

You didn't even define hypothesis that way!!!
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Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby James S Saint » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:18 pm

Fortunately, you haven't (nor MA) the authority to dictate evolution of language.

hypo-
prefix
prefix: hypo-; prefix: hyp-

under.
"hypodermic"
below normal.
"hypoglycemia"
slightly.
"hypomanic"
Chemistry
containing an element with an unusually low valence.
"hypochlorous"

Origin
from Greek hupo ‘under.’
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25609
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:03 am

And thus the evolution of language ...

What about albinos (hypo pigmented )

No pigment
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Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:21 am

James is a dribbler. The most effective way to dribble is to bury your head in social and mental constructs (such as language.)
I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
-- Mr. Reasonable
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Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:28 am

Ecmandu wrote:Falsified evidence is what conforms an inference about causality between two conceptual observations. Evidence doesn't have to be falsified to be evidence of something. For example, a blood sample is evidence, but may never be falsified for a crime .


Theory is a set of instructions that when followed generate predictions.

That's it. Nothing to do with evidence, falsified or not.
I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
-- Mr. Reasonable
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Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:40 am

James S Saint wrote:A theory might say that masses attract each other. A hypothesis (a subset of theory) would then be to state that if one was to hang a small mass very close to a very large mass, the small mass would measurably move closer to the large mass. The experiment would be the actual exercise of testing the hypothesis that was based upon the theory.


Theory -> prediction -> observation

The theory is falsifiable when an experiment can be arranged that would prove the theory false if it was indeed false. Some theories are so ambiguous and vague that no experiment could disprove the theory whether it was false or not.


Theories can neither be proven nor disproven. Rather, their truth value, expressed as a set of tested predictions, can change. When people describe them as true or false this is either a simplification of their truth value or a reflection of whether their potential users decided to accept/apply them or reject/discard them, a decision which is based on need and not on something external.
I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
-- Mr. Reasonable
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Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby James S Saint » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:47 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:Theories can neither be proven nor disproven. Rather, their truth value, expressed as a set of tested predictions, can change. When people describe them as true or false this is either a simplification of their truth value or a reflection of whether their potential users decided to accept/apply them or reject/discard them, a decision which is based on need and not on something external.

Well, we'll let that be your lil secret.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25609
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:15 am

Need is not based on something external?

I think you need a few days to clean your mind from the virus of this thread Magnus, and then come back to it.

The reason James came at you the way he did, is because if everything is exactly the same (no external) existence cannot exist, and that's a contradiction, because, existence does exist.
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Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:56 am

When I say that an object is 10cm in length I am doing so because of my need and not because the object-in-itself is 10cm.

A different need would require, and thus yield, a different measurement. Say 10.064368cm.

There is external reality but there are no objects-in-themselves.

We arrest the flux.
We must stop the rolling of a dice in order to read its value.
I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
-- Mr. Reasonable
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Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:37 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:When I say that an object is 10cm in length I am doing so because of my need and not because the object-in-itself is 10cm.

A different need would require, and thus yield, a different measurement. Say 10.064368cm.

There is external reality but there are no objects-in-themselves.

We arrest the flux.
We must stop the rolling of a dice in order to read its value.


If there's so much flux, then why is a precise measurement 10.06438... Seems like it could be -7.21?? Right??
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Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby surreptitious57 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:32 am

In science a testable hypothesis has to be potentially falsifiable. Non testable hypotheses are not valid because they cannot be potentially falsifiable. Even
if they are true. And whilst theory and hypothesis might be interchangeable terms in common vernacular they have very specific and different meanings in
science. A theory is the highest body of work in science incorporating laws and principles to formulate a single unification and so nothing is above a theory
Whereas a hypothesis is at the other end of the spectrum and so is essentially no more than a reasonable guess or estimate based upon existing knowledge
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:03 pm

Ecmandu wrote:If there's so much flux, then why is a precise measurement 10.06438... Seems like it could be -7.21?? Right??


It's up to you, and not up to me, to prove the existence of objects-in-themselves.

Can you prove that there is an object that has a real, ultimate, length?

How can you when there is no option but to run into the problem of infinity?

No matter how much you zoom into an object, it is always logically possible to zoom into it further.

What is the exact length of an object?
10cm?
10.0cm?
10.06cm?
10.068cm?
10.0685cm?
. . .

Need, and not external reality, decides what measurement is good enough.

Personal, and not universal, boundaries decide what measurement is good enough.
I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
-- Mr. Reasonable
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Re: Analytic Truth-Value

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:10 pm

Objects are not "in themselves" they are themselves...

So that's already a non starter.

I agree with you that desire is the impetus for our knowledge about a universe that also exists out there.

We cannot change that it's 10 cm, or if we need to calculate further that it's a complex decimal.

I've actually said this many times on the boards...

Without desire, there is no truth to the external...

What is a being without desire?

Such a being doesn't even exist ...

Being is necessary, not contingent ...

We are all here
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