Is the law of conservation of energy right?

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Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Yes.
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No.
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I do not know.
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Total votes : 9

Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby Arminius » Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:44 am

Is the law of conservation of energy right?

-------------------------------------------------

Is the universe an isolated system, thus something like a thermodynamic system enclosed by rigid immovable walls through which neither matter nor energy can pass?
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Re: Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby James S Saint » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:56 pm

Arminius wrote:Is the law of conservation of energy right?

-------------------------------------------------

Is the universe an isolated system, thus something like a thermodynamic system enclosed by rigid immovable walls through which neither matter nor energy can pass?

Those are two different questions. The first, "is energy conserved" is most certainly absolutely true. But the second, "is the universe enclosed", is certainly absolutely false.

So which did you really want as the poll question?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby Arminius » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:35 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Arminius wrote:Is the law of conservation of energy right?

-------------------------------------------------

Is the universe an isolated system, thus something like a thermodynamic system enclosed by rigid immovable walls through which neither matter nor energy can pass?

Those are two different questions.

Yes, of course, and they are meant as two different questions too (therefore the line: " --------- ").

James S Saint wrote:The first, "is energy conserved" is most certainly absolutely true. But the second, "is the universe enclosed", is certainly absolutely false.

So which did you really want as the poll question?

The first one of course. The first one is the title of this thread. So it is also the most relevat question of this thread.

The second one is merely relevant when it comes to bring both questions together, for example when we are referring to results of some thermodynamic experiments that can be (but should be?) and are used as premises for the laws of thermodynamics, thus also for the law of conservation of energy.

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Re: Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby Amorphos » Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:33 pm

I think the universe begins infinite then finds a curve, where the infinite 'lines' gain a value probably pi and retract into a finite mass. The amount would be at a rough estimation, ∞ - pi as an exponent, so you quickly get down to a condensation of the infinite energy into a singularity i.e. where the energy can be compressed no more. Ergo there is a limited amount of energy derivative of an infinite amount of it, so it is 'the whole' of all energy and hence conserved.

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Re: Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby humunculus » Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:13 pm

The law of conservation works in every system we have been able to observe so far.
"Universe" is a word that designates everything that exists.
We know very little about its scope or possible limits.
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Re: Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby James S Saint » Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:51 pm

Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:The first, "is energy conserved" is most certainly absolutely true. But the second, "is the universe enclosed", is certainly absolutely false.

The first one is the title of this thread. So it is also the most relevant question of this thread.

The second one is merely relevant when it comes to bringing both questions together, for example when we are referring to results of some thermodynamic experiments that can be (but should be?) and are used as premises for the laws of thermodynamics, thus also for the law of conservation of energy.

Durch_Dampf_betriebener_Motor.gif

That engine is better functioning when a turbine engine (another that I "re"-invented many years ago).

The conservation of energy, although stated as the first "law" of thermodynamics, is actually first derived by definitions, postulates, and non-thermo experiments (electrical, momentum, and gravitational). It is actually true by definition, and is provably true by logic (regardless of experiments).

"Potential energy" is the term for any situation that can bring about "kinetic energy". And unknown to most people, "kinetic energy" is the term for whatever brings about a situation of potential energy. And further, the amount of each is determined by how much each can produce of the other. So if a kinetic process did not yield enough potential energy, then the amount of kinetic energy was less .. and more often, vsvrsa. It has always been a circular measurement, although I don't know that they ever realized that.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby Arminius » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:02 am

The second law of thermodynamics, also known as the law of entropy, should also be considered.

So do you think that the second law of thermodynamics, also known as the law of entropy, is true or false?
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Re: Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:04 am

Arminius wrote:The second law of thermodynamics, also known as the law of entropy, should also be considered.

So do you think that the second law of thermodynamics, also known as the law of entropy, is true or false?

You will have to state the exact wording of that one before I could answer it. The wording has changed at least 5 times since it was first proposed. Maxwell blew away the original pretty quickly over 140 years ago, but they kept preaching it as their new religion. Since then they keep changing the wording to try to make it into something that is coherent with science evidence.

Sp which version are you asking about? 8)
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25575
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby Arminius » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:41 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Arminius wrote:The second law of thermodynamics, also known as the law of entropy, should also be considered.

So do you think that the second law of thermodynamics, also known as the law of entropy, is true or false?

You will have to state the exact wording of that one before I could answer it. The wording has changed at least 5 times since it was first proposed. Maxwell blew away the original pretty quickly over 140 years ago, but they kept preaching it as their new religion. Since then they keep changing the wording to try to make it into something that is coherent with science evidence.

Sp which version are you asking about? 8)

We alraedy had this subject in my "Universe and Time" thread:

Arminius wrote:What about the arrow of time?

    "The past is different from the future. One of the most obvious features of the macroscopic world is irreversibility: heat doesn't flow spontaneously from cold objects to hot ones, we can turn eggs into omelets but not omelets into eggs, ice cubes melt in warm water but glasses of water don't spontaneously give rise to ice cubes. We remember the past, but not the future; we can take actions that affect the future, but not the past (we can't undo our mistakes). We are all born, then age, then die; never the other way around. The distinction between past and future seems to be consistent throughout the observable universe. The arrow of time is simply that distinction, pointing from past to future.

    Why is there such an arrow?

    Irreversible processes are summarized by the Second Law of Thermodynamics: the entropy of a closed system will (practically) never decrease into the future. It's a bedrock foundation of modern physics.

    What's "entropy"?

    Entropy is a measure of the disorder of a system. A nice organized system, like an unbroken egg or a neatly-arranged pile of papers, has a low entropy; a disorganized system, like a broken egg or a scattered mess of papers, has a high entropy. Left to its own devices, entropy goes up as time passes."
    - Sean Carroll.
Do you believe in Sean Carroll's point of view?

For those who don't want to read Carroll's texts:



Do you agree with him?

More:
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Re: Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:17 pm

This one is no longer about the theory, nor the discussion, nor philosophy. It is about the wording. You must state the exact wording for logic to be properly applied toward sensible conclusion.

Exactly state the proposed "law".
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Posts: 25575
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby Artimas » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:39 pm

What seems infinite to us may not be to something else. This planet may seem infinite to an insect, but it is not infinite to us. Micro to macro, as above so below.

Energy never ceases to exist, it changes. Evolution perhaps.

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Re: Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby Arminius » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:30 pm

James S Saint wrote:This one is no longer about the theory, nor the discussion, nor philosophy. It is about the wording. You must state the exact wording for logic to be properly applied toward sensible conclusion.

Exactly state the proposed "law".

Let's take this statement:

The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system always increases over time, or remains constant in ideal cases where the system is in a steady state or undergoing a reversible process. The increase in entropy accounts for the irreversibility of natural processes, and the asymmetry between future and past.
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Re: Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby Arminius » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:58 pm

And maybe we can take this in order to answer the question what entropy is:

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Re: Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:05 pm

Arminius wrote:
The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system always increases over time, or remains constant in ideal cases where the system is in a steady state or undergoing a reversible process. The increase in entropy accounts for the irreversibility of natural processes, and the asymmetry between future and past.

That is absolutely false.

Arminius wrote: The increase in entropy accounts for the irreversibility of natural processes, and the asymmetry between future and past.

That is also false. Entropy is not a causal agency, thus cannot "account for" anything. Entropy is merely a measure of what is present, not why it is that way.

Entropy ≡ the measure of the randomness of energy in a system.

That is also false. Entropy is not defined by the state of energy, but of pattern or distribution in space (of anything). An example from Wiki:
In thermodynamics, entropy (usual symbol S) is a measure of the number of microscopic configurations that correspond to a thermodynamic system in a state specified by certain macroscopic variables. For example, gas in a container with known volume, pressure, and temperature could have an enormous number of possible configurations of the individual gas molecules, and which configuration the gas is actually in may be regarded as random.


An example of the failing of such a law would be what happens to a large spherical chamber of mixed gases out in space over time. Over time, the gases will separate with the heavier gases in the center of the chamber. The end steady state situation is less random than it began - lower entropy.

Both gravity and life (among others) defeats the "Second Law of Thermodynamics". It is actually not a "law", but rather a natural propensity. "Maxwell's Demon" was an abstract concept used to show how it wasn't a law very long ago. My own "KD project" more physically proved it back in 1972. There have been a variety of systems that over-come randomness, "trapping systems", and also increase energy state when energy is allowed to randomly enter the system. Subatomic particles defeat the law when first growing and resist the law while maintaining. Objects in space can gradually collect over time due to gravitational migration, becoming less random - lower entropy.

"Yes, Virginia. There really is such a thing as Anti-entropy and Anentropy."
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby Arminius » Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:26 pm

Did you notice that my quote was a "Wiki" quote?

Thus "Wiki" wrote:

The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system always increases over time, or remains constant in ideal cases where the system is in a steady state or undergoing a reversible process. The increase in entropy accounts for the irreversibility of natural processes, and the asymmetry between future and past.
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Re: Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:40 pm

Arminius wrote:Did you notice that my quote was a "Wiki" quote?

Thus "Wiki" wrote:

The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system always increases over time, or remains constant in ideal cases where the system is in a steady state or undergoing a reversible process. The increase in entropy accounts for the irreversibility of natural processes, and the asymmetry between future and past.

Yeah, but they are merely telling of what the law states. They cannot testify as to whether it is really true. The greatest error is merely in calling it a "law".
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25575
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby Arminius » Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:44 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Arminius wrote:Did you notice that my quote was a "Wiki" quote?

Thus "Wiki" wrote:

The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system always increases over time, or remains constant in ideal cases where the system is in a steady state or undergoing a reversible process. The increase in entropy accounts for the irreversibility of natural processes, and the asymmetry between future and past.

Yeah, but they are merely telling of what the law states. They cannot testify as to whether it is really true. The greatest error is merely in calling it a "law".

in German it is not called "Gesetz" ("law") but merely "Hauptsatz" ("main clause" => "main theorem"). :wink:
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Re: Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:02 pm

But do they keep preaching it to be a true theorem?? Or more of a often-true consequence?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25575
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby Amorphos » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:46 am

Just out of curiosity, how does nature distinguish between ordered and less ordered? Surely it would see different patterns, and randomness as one of them.
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Re: Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby James S Saint » Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:14 am

Amorphos wrote:Just out of curiosity, how does nature distinguish between ordered and less ordered? Surely it would see different patterns, and randomness as one of them.

It sounds a little strange, but actually "nature distinguishes" (whatever that means) order from disorder by virtue of speed. That which is ordered merely remains closer to as it was for a longer time, thus establishing a "fixed pattern" (for at least a short duration) and thus an "order" to be discerned by a mind, labeled, and used for prediction.

The very first/lowest "order in nature" is that of a sphere of dense EMR noise, known as a "subatomic particle". Its enduring shape allows for all higher ordered structures to form (atoms, molecules,...). The sphere only forms due to the traffic jam of noise retarding any change in the over all cluster.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25575
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby Arminius » Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:32 am

James S Saint wrote:But do they keep preaching it to be a true theorem?? Or more of a often-true consequence?

Those of the physicists I personally know want it to be a true theorem.
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Re: Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby Arminius » Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:37 pm

James S Saint wrote:The very first/lowest "order in nature" is that of a sphere of dense EMR noise, known as a "subatomic particle"

But this noise is not the "subatomic particle" itself.
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Re: Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby James S Saint » Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:18 pm

Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:The very first/lowest "order in nature" is that of a sphere of dense EMR noise, known as a "subatomic particle"

But this noise is not the "subatomic particle" itself.

The cluster (gathering) of the noise is the particle. A crowd is not people, but rather a gathering of people. A human body is not chemicals, but rather a gathering of chemicals (in a particular order).
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25575
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby Arminius » Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:19 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:The very first/lowest "order in nature" is that of a sphere of dense EMR noise, known as a "subatomic particle"

But this noise is not the "subatomic particle" itself.

The cluster (gathering) of the noise is the particle. A crowd is not people, but rather a gathering of people. A human body is not chemicals, but rather a gathering of chemicals (in a particular order).

I rewrite your analogy as follows:

If a particle is the cluster (gathering) of the noise, and the crowd is - rather (!) - a gathering of people and the human body - rather (!) a gathering of chemicals (in a particular order), then a particle must - rather (!) - be like a human body or like a crowd, whereas the noise must - rather (!) - be like chemicals (in a particular order) or like people.
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Re: Is the law of conservation of energy right?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:28 pm

Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:The cluster (gathering) of the noise is the particle. A crowd is not people, but rather a gathering of people. A human body is not chemicals, but rather a gathering of chemicals (in a particular order).

I rewrite your analogy as follows:

If a particle is the cluster (gathering) of the noise, and the crowd is - rather (!) - a gathering of people and the human body - rather (!) a gathering of chemicals (in a particular order), then a particle must - rather (!) - be like a human body or like a crowd, whereas the noise must - rather (!) - be like chemicals (in a particular order) or like people.

Well..
Umm..
Okay...
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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James S Saint
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Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

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