## Riddles

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### Re: Riddles

Arminius wrote:Six people in two groups.

There are six people A, B, C, D, E, F which are in each case either in group 1 or group 2. The following statements are given:

1. Both A and B are in 1.
2. F is in 2, and if E is in 2, then C is also in 2.
3. D is in 1 and if F is in 2, then A is also in 2.
4. A and E are both in 2.
5. D is in 2 and E is in 1, and if C is in 2, then B is in 1.
6. D and B are both in 2.
7. The statements 1-6 are wrong.

Who is in which group?

1. A and B cannot both be in 1. Either A is in 1, B is in 1, or Neither are in one
Either A or B, or both A and B is in group 2.
2. F is undefined. E is undefined. C is undefined.
3. D is undefined. F is undefined. A is undefined.
4. Either A or E, or both A and E are in group 1.
5. D is undefined. E is undefined. C is undefined. B is undefined.
6. Either D or B, or both D and B are in group 2.

No solution.

If a statement is wrong, only one component may be wrong. Therefore, F is undefined.
For instance, in 2. F may be in 2, because only the end of the statment may be wrong. Therefore F is undefined
trogdor

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### Re: Riddles

Solution to ("Perfect Logicians")
A: Since he has 12, that means I do not have 9.
Case 1. I have 15. This means he thinks he has 12 or 9.
Case 2. I have 12. This means he thinks he has 12 or 15.
If I say no, that will tell him that he does not have nine, and that I know he does not have nine. Because if he had nine, that would mean I have 15. But I am unsure if I have 15.
"No."
B: Him saying no means I do not have 9. Because if I had nine, he would know that his is 15. So he knows i do not have nine.
Case 1. I have 15. This means he thinks he has 12 or 9.
Case 2. I have 12. This means he thinks he has 12 or 15.
If I say no, that will tell him that he does not have nine, and that I know he does not have have nine, and that I know he does not have nine. Because if he had nine that would mean I know I have 15. But I am unsure if I have 15.
"No."
A: Case 1. I have 15. Since I already made him know he doesn't have 9, this means he would think he has twelve. Since he doesn't know if he has twelve, this means Case 2 is true, that I have twelve.
"I have twelve."
Three turns
trogdor

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### Re: Riddles

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:
Arminius wrote:Six people in two groups.

There are six people A, B, C, D, E, F which are in each case either in group 1 or group 2. The following statements are given:

1. Both A and B are in 1.
2. F is in 2, and if E is in 2, then C is also in 2.
3. D is in 1 and if F is in 2, then A is also in 2.
4. A and E are both in 2.
5. D is in 2 and E is in 1, and if C is in 2, then B is in 1.
6. D and B are both in 2.
7. The statements 1-6 are wrong.

Who is in which group?

1. A and B cannot both be in 1. Either A is in 1, B is in 1, or Neither are in one
Either A or B, or both A and B is in group 2.
2. F is undefined. E is undefined. C is undefined.
3. D is undefined. F is undefined. A is undefined.
4. Either A or E, or both A and E are in group 1.
5. D is undefined. E is undefined. C is undefined. B is undefined.
6. Either D or B, or both D and B are in group 2.

No solution.

Sorry, but there is a solution.

Arminius
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### Re: Riddles

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:Solution to ("Perfect Logicians")
A: Since he has 12, that means I do not have 9.
Case 1. I have 15. This means he thinks he has 12 or 9.
Case 2. I have 12. This means he thinks he has 12 or 15.
If I say no, that will tell him that he does not have nine, and that I know he does not have nine. Because if he had nine, that would mean I have 15. But I am unsure if I have 15.
"No."
B: Him saying no means I do not have 9. Because if I had nine, he would know that his is 15. So he knows i do not have nine.
Case 1. I have 15. This means he thinks he has 12 or 9.
Case 2. I have 12. This means he thinks he has 12 or 15.
If I say no, that will tell him that he does not have nine, and that I know he does not have have nine, and that I know he does not have nine. Because if he had nine that would mean I know I have 15. But I am unsure if I have 15.
"No."
A: Case 1. I have 15. Since I already made him know he doesn't have 9, this means he would think he has twelve. Since he doesn't know if he has twelve, this means Case 2 is true, that I have twelve.
"I have twelve."
Three turns

Sorry, but that is false.

Arminius
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### Re: Riddles

Arminius wrote:Perfect Logicians.

Players A and B both have got the number 12 written on her forehead. Everyone sees the number on the front of the other but does not know the own number. The game master tells them that the sum of their numbers is either 24 or 27 and that this numbers are positive integers (thus also no zero).

Then the game master asks repeatedly A and B alternately, if they can determine the number on her forehead.

A: "No".
B: "No".
A: "No".
B: "No".
A: "No".
....

After how many "no"s does the game end, if at all?

You need to learn to write. This makes no sense.

"Science is entirely Faith Based.... Obama is Muslim....Evil is the opposition to life (e-v-i-l <=> l-i-v-e ... and not by accident). Without evil there could be no life.", James S. Saint.
"The Holocaust was the fault of the Jews; The Holocaust was not genocide", Kriswest
"A Tortoise is a Turtle", Wizard
" Hitler didn't create the Nazis. In reality, the Judists did ... for a purpose of their own. Hitler was merely one they chose to head it up after they discovered the Judist betrayal in WW1, their "Judas Iscariot";James S Saint.
These just keep getting funnier.

Lev Muishkin
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### Re: Riddles

Arminius wrote:Greetings from ....

The following picture shows the island where I spend my holidays:

my_current_holiday_island.jpg

Which island is it?

Menorca.

"Science is entirely Faith Based.... Obama is Muslim....Evil is the opposition to life (e-v-i-l <=> l-i-v-e ... and not by accident). Without evil there could be no life.", James S. Saint.
"The Holocaust was the fault of the Jews; The Holocaust was not genocide", Kriswest
"A Tortoise is a Turtle", Wizard
" Hitler didn't create the Nazis. In reality, the Judists did ... for a purpose of their own. Hitler was merely one they chose to head it up after they discovered the Judist betrayal in WW1, their "Judas Iscariot";James S Saint.
These just keep getting funnier.

Lev Muishkin
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### Re: Riddles

Lev Muishkin wrote:
Arminius wrote:Perfect Logicians.

Players A and B both have got the number 12 written on her forehead. Everyone sees the number on the front of the other but does not know the own number. The game master tells them that the sum of their numbers is either 24 or 27 and that this numbers are positive integers (thus also no zero).

Then the game master asks repeatedly A and B alternately, if they can determine the number on her forehead.

A: "No".
B: "No".
A: "No".
B: "No".
A: "No".
....

After how many "no"s does the game end, if at all?

You need to learn to write. This makes no sense.

Obviously you are the only one here who is not capable of reading.

Lev Muishkin wrote:
Arminius wrote:Greetings from ....

The following picture shows the island where I spend my holidays:

my_current_holiday_island.jpg

Which island is it?

Menorca.

This riddle was alraedy solved by James S. Saint (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=188593&start=150#p2567357).

Again: Obviously you are the only one here who is not capable of reading.

Q.E.D.

Arminius
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### Re: Riddles

PERFECT LOGICIANS

A: HIS IS 12 SO MINE MUST BE EITHER 12 OR 15. IF HE THINKS I SEE A 12 HE WILL THINK HIS IS EITHER 12 OR 15. IF HE THINKS I SEE A 15, HE WILL THINK HIS IS EITHER 9 OR 12.

"NO"

B: HE SAID NO, SO THAT MEANS I DON'T HAVE A 9. IF I HAD A 9 HE WOULD KNOW FOR SURE THAT HIS WOULD BE 15.
HOWEVER I STILL DON'T KNOW IF MY NUMBER IS 12 OR 15.

"NO"

A: WE BOTH KNOW THAT WE'RE NOT 9 AND THEREFORE THE OTHER EITHER 12 OR 15, BUT DON'T KNOW WHICH. WE CAN'T BOTH BE 15, SO IF I HAD 15 HE WOULD KNOW FOR SURE HIS IS 12. SINCE HE ANSWERED NO, I MUST HAVE A 12.

"BOOYAH, BITCHES"
phoneutria
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### Re: Riddles

phoneutria wrote:PERFECT LOGICIANS

A: HIS IS 12 SO MINE MUST BE EITHER 12 OR 15. IF HE THINKS I SEE A 12 HE WILL THINK HIS IS EITHER 12 OR 15. IF HE THINKS I SEE A 15, HE WILL THINK HIS IS EITHER 9 OR 12.

"NO"

B: HE SAID NO, SO THAT MEANS I DON'T HAVE A 9. IF I HAD A 9 HE WOULD KNOW FOR SURE THAT HIS WOULD BE 15.
HOWEVER I STILL DON'T KNOW IF MY NUMBER IS 12 OR 15.

"NO"

A: WE BOTH KNOW THAT WE'RE NOT 9 AND THEREFORE THE OTHER EITHER 12 OR 15, BUT DON'T KNOW WHICH. WE CAN'T BOTH BE 15, SO IF I HAD 15 HE WOULD KNOW FOR SURE HIS IS 12. SINCE HE ANSWERED NO, I MUST HAVE A 12.

"BOOYAH, BITCHES"

Hello again, Phoneutria.

The question of that riddle again: "After how many "no"s does the game end, if at all?"

Arminius
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### Re: Riddles

Two, robot.
phoneutria
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### Re: Riddles

No, spider. That is false. Please try again.

I am a real human, my spider.

Arminius
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### Re: Riddles

My logic checks, robot. You may require calibration.
phoneutria
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### Re: Riddles

Okay, spider.

Good luck!

Arminius
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### Re: Riddles

Can you please check my logic?
phoneutria
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### Re: Riddles

You are on the right track.

Arminius
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### Re: Riddles

Well, if you don't tell me what is wrong with my answer, I cannot continue, since my solution works as far as I can tell.
phoneutria
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### Re: Riddles

You are on the right track - that means: You can go on, because there is no logical error; only the answer is false, but the logical track is right so far.

And if so, then you merely have to follow this track for a longer time, with more patience, and especially with more consequence!

Cue: Recursive conclusion.

Is it okay for you now, or shall I give you more information?

Arminius
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### Re: Riddles

Arminius, I arrived at certainty that they both know they are 12 after 2 "no"s.
If you think that my last sentence does not provide certainty, can you please point out the flaw?
phoneutria
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### Re: Riddles

phoneutria wrote:Arminius, I arrived at certainty that they both know they are 12 after 2 "no"s.
If you think that my last sentence does not provide certainty, can you please point out the flaw?

Yes, I can.

There are still more than one number possible after both have said 2 "no"s.

Shall I give you examples?

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### Re: Riddles

phoneutria
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### Re: Riddles

In the beginning A knows that (1) a = 12 or a = 15, and (2) B knows that b = 12 or b = 15.

Okay. But A does not know that B (2) knows, and B does not know that A (1) knows. So the statement above is not suited for the recursive conclusion.

But both A and B know all of the following statements and that each of them knows that the other one knows them:

(3) a = 24 - b or a = 27 - b and (4) b = 24 - a or b = 27 - a.

Now, from the first "no" of A and from (4) follows (5) b < 24, because if b >= 24, then A would be able to conclude a. This is the motor for the recursive conclusion.

Now, from the first "no" of B and from (3) and (5) follows (6) a > 3.

And so on.

Arminius
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### Re: Riddles

Arminius wrote:
In the beginning A knows that (1) a = 12 or a = 15, and (2) B knows that b = 12 or b = 15.

Okay. But A does not know that B (2) knows, and B does not know that A (1) knows. So the statement above is not suited for the recursive conclusion.

But both A and B know all of the following statements and that each of them knows that the other one knows them:

(3) a = 24 - b or a = 27 - b and (4) b = 24 - a or b = 27 - a.

Now, from the first "no" of A and from (4) follows (5) b < 24, because if b >= 24, then A would be able to conclude a. This is the motor for the recursive conclusion.

Now, from the first "no" of B and from (3) and (5) follows (6) a > 3.

And so on.

After 9 was eliminated, they know that 12 and 15 are the only valid options.

They can't both be 15.

If I see a 15 I would know that my number is 12, however I see a 12, so I have to answer no.

The other one must realize that the situation above ensued and therefore be must see a 12 on my forehead.
phoneutria
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### Re: Riddles

phoneutria wrote:
Arminius wrote:
In the beginning A knows that (1) a = 12 or a = 15, and (2) B knows that b = 12 or b = 15.

Okay. But A does not know that B (2) knows, and B does not know that A (1) knows. So the statement above is not suited for the recursive conclusion.

But both A and B know all of the following statements and that each of them knows that the other one knows them:

(3) a = 24 - b or a = 27 - b and (4) b = 24 - a or b = 27 - a.

Now, from the first "no" of A and from (4) follows (5) b < 24, because if b >= 24, then A would be able to conclude a. This is the motor for the recursive conclusion.

Now, from the first "no" of B and from (3) and (5) follows (6) a > 3.

And so on.

After 9 was eliminated, they know that 12 and 15 are the only valid options.

They can't both be 15.

If I see a 15 I would know that my number is 12, however I see a 12, so I have to answer no.

The other one must realize that the situation above ensued and therefore be must see a 12 on my forehead.

That is false.

And you have - again (!) - forgotten one of the premises:

I wrote:Perfect Logicians.

Players A and B have got the number 12 written on their foreheads. ....

Arminius
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### Re: Riddles

No I didn't, and no it isn't.
phoneutria
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### Re: Riddles

phoneutria wrote:PERFECT LOGICIANS

A: HIS IS 12 SO MINE MUST BE EITHER 12 OR 15. IF HE THINKS I SEE A 12 HE WILL THINK HIS IS EITHER 12 OR 15. IF HE THINKS I SEE A 15, HE WILL THINK HIS IS EITHER 9 OR 12.

"NO"

B: HE SAID NO, SO THAT MEANS I DON'T HAVE A 9. IF I HAD A 9 HE WOULD KNOW FOR SURE THAT HIS WOULD BE 15.
HOWEVER I STILL DON'T KNOW IF MY NUMBER IS 12 OR 15.

The sums being either 24 or 27, If you had a 9, his number could be either 15 or 18.

"NO"

A: WE BOTH KNOW THAT WE'RE NOT 9 AND THEREFORE THE OTHER EITHER 12 OR 15, BUT DON'T KNOW WHICH. WE CAN'T BOTH BE 15, SO IF I HAD 15 HE WOULD KNOW FOR SURE HIS IS 12. SINCE HE ANSWERED NO, I MUST HAVE A 12.

The only thing that you both know at this point is that neither has a number greater than 24.

"BOOYAH, BITCHES"
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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