Math Fun

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Re: Math Fun

Postby Carleas » Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:06 pm

James S Saint wrote:I told you that my examples were a reflection of your example, each merely making a convenient assumption that allows the puzzle to seem like it is solvable, even though in the final analysis, it actually isn't.

And I distinguished my proposed solution from your examples: my proposed solution relies on deductive logic of the form "if X -> impossible, ~impossible |- ~X". Your examples do no such thing, they are (and you've acknowledge they are) scientifically inductive, and thus not based on deductive logic.

Your attempts at psychoanalysis aside, I've responded to every argument you've made clearly and directly. Indeed, when your arguments were good, I've acknowledged as much and revised my arguments to address your valid points; you have ever reason to believe that a valid criticism clearly expressed will be seriously considered and result in a revision of my position, as it has on multiple occasions).

And while of course Wikipedia can be wrong about common knowledge, the syllogism I've offered (which you haven't bothered to address directly, i.e. by pointing to a specific line that you have a problem with) is not original to Wikipedia. When you doubt wiki's accuracy, follow the sources: look at the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy and its entry on the problem. A Nobel Prize winner built his most famous work on it, read his paper.

There are two possibilities: You have actually identified a defeater of the logic at play, and refuse to reveal it clearly even though it would clearly be a significant achievement; or you have not, and you care not to discuss it because you care not to admit it.

If you would admit it, we could focus on the SR, where I think you have a real possibility of being right (although I still think you're wrong about that too).
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Re: Math Fun

Postby James S Saint » Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:40 pm

James S Saint wrote:Carleas,
Carl, you are just doing as I said that you were going to do back at the beginning of this; repeat yourself over and over while ignoring my counter arguments (although you did manage to muster up the answer to one usually ignored question). You seem to be incapable of seeing the obvious but perhaps are merely wrapped up into an ego concern of one type or another. In either case, you appear to not really care of the truth of this matter and thus I no longer care to discuss it with you. Your "Blue-eyes" class of puzzles are not being validly addressed.

But Wiki is in error in many articles, so this one wouldn't be anything exceptional.

:wink:
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Math Fun

Postby Carleas » Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:01 pm

Repeating yourself and ignoring me by copying and pasting an allegation that I'm repeating myself and ignoring you? Very meta.
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Re: Math Fun

Postby phoneutria » Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:04 pm

Time to end the discussion, I think.
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Re: Math Fun

Postby Arminius » Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:55 pm

The Italian Book.

Last week I bought a book in Italy. The cashier got hundred Euros and gave me twice as much and five cents more back than my entitlement was. Obviously the cashier had confused the amount in euros with the amount in cents.

How expensive was the book?
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Re: Math Fun

Postby James S Saint » Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:32 pm

Arminius wrote:The Italian Book.

Last week I bought a book in Italy. The cashier got hundred Euros and gave me twice as much and five cents more back than my entitlement was. Obviously the cashier had confused the amount in euros with the amount in cents.

How expensive was the book?

n/m -- later.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Math Fun

Postby Arminius » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:12 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Arminius wrote:The Italian Book.

Last week I bought a book in Italy. The cashier got hundred Euros and gave me twice as much and five cents more back than my entitlement was. Obviously the cashier had confused the amount in euros with the amount in cents.

How expensive was the book?

Did you mean the amount in "cents" or in "dollars"?

As I said: the amount in cents (euro cents - of course).

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Re: Math Fun

Postby phoneutria » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:23 pm

The Italian Book

94.80?
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Re: Math Fun

Postby Arminius » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:30 pm

phoneutria wrote:The Italian Book

94.80?

That is false.
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Re: Math Fun

Postby phoneutria » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:42 pm

gah
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Re: Math Fun

Postby James S Saint » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:23 pm

Arminius wrote:The Italian Book.

Last week I bought a book in Italy. The cashier got hundred Euros and gave me twice as much and five cents more back than my entitlement was. Obviously the cashier had confused the amount in euros with the amount in cents.

How expensive was the book?

I have to convert it to dollars in order to make cents of it... :-"
Actually, I must be misunderstanding you in some way.

You seem to be saying that you received twice the proper change, x, plus an extra 5 cents. That would be:
received = 2x + .05

But then you say that the cashier confused euros with cents. That would mean that what was received was 100 times what was proper:
2x + .o5 = 100x

And that yields some fraction of a cent as the proper change. So I don't get what you meant to say.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Math Fun

Postby Arminius » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:12 am

James S Saint wrote:
Arminius wrote:The Italian Book.

Last week I bought a book in Italy. The cashier got hundred Euros and gave me twice as much and five cents more back than my entitlement was. Obviously the cashier had confused the amount in euros with the amount in cents.

How expensive was the book?

I have to convert it to dollars in order to make cents of it... :-"
Actually, I must be misunderstanding you in some way.

You seem to be saying that you received twice the proper change, x, plus an extra 5 cents. That would be:
received = 2x + .05

But then you say that the cashier confused euros with cents. That would mean that what was received was 100 times what was proper:
2x + .o5 = 100x

And that yields some fraction of a cent as the proper change. So I don't get what you meant to say.

The cashier got hundred euros (for you: dollars :) ) and gave me twice as much (back as my entitlement was) and five cents more back than my entitlement was. Obviously the cashier had confused the amount in euros (for you: dollars :) ) with the amount in cents (of the change).
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Re: Math Fun

Postby James S Saint » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:28 am

Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:
Actually, I must be misunderstanding you in some way.

You seem to be saying that you received twice the proper change, x, plus an extra 5 cents. That would be:
received = 2x + .05

But then you say that the cashier confused euros with cents. That would mean that what was received was 100 times what was proper:
2x + .o5 = 100x

And that yields some fraction of a cent as the proper change. So I don't get what you meant to say.

The cashier got hundred euros (for you: dollars :) ) and gave me twice as much (back as my entitlement was) and five cents more back than my entitlement was. Obviously the cashier had confused the amount in euros (for you: dollars :) ) with the amount in cents (of the change).

Is that supposed to be any different than I described?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Math Fun

Postby Arminius » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:43 am

James S Saint wrote:
Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:
Actually, I must be misunderstanding you in some way.

You seem to be saying that you received twice the proper change, x, plus an extra 5 cents. That would be:
received = 2x + .05

But then you say that the cashier confused euros with cents. That would mean that what was received was 100 times what was proper:
2x + .o5 = 100x

And that yields some fraction of a cent as the proper change. So I don't get what you meant to say.

The cashier got hundred euros (for you: dollars :) ) and gave me twice as much (back as my entitlement was) and five cents more back than my entitlement was. Obviously the cashier had confused the amount in euros (for you: dollars :) ) with the amount in cents (of the change).

Is that supposed to be any different than I described?

Do you mean what you linguistically described, or what you lingusitically and mathematically described or what you mathematically described?

Shall I tell more?
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Re: Math Fun

Postby James S Saint » Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:14 am

Arminius wrote:Shall I tell more?

Nah... I'll just accept that I don't get what you are saying.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Math Fun

Postby Arminius » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:33 am

James S Saint wrote:
Arminius wrote:Shall I tell more?

Nah... I'll just accept that I don't get what you are saying.

I estimate that the probability that your problem with my task is no pure text comprehension problem is about 90%.

A linguistical hint:
According to the text the cashier did not confuse one thing with itself.

A linguistical-mathematical hint:
If the cashier confuses two things, then they have to be considered as two "things" in a mathematical sense too.

A mathematical hint:
There is merely one unknown in your equations.

:oops: or :o or :shock: or all ?

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Re: Math Fun

Postby phoneutria » Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:25 am

entitlement means my change?
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Re: Math Fun

Postby phoneutria » Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:40 am

I think I got it. Pardon if your hits or james answers already say this is false. I haven't opened any tabs.

If book dude cofused the cent amount with the euro amount, that means that the amount of euros he was supposed to get back was 5.
If he was supposed to get 5 and got twice as much, then he got 10euros.

He was supposed to get 5 euros, 10cents, but got 10euros, 5 cents.

Therefore the book cost 94 euros, 90 cents.

Also, no idea why I said 94.80 before. Bot enough coffee i think
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Re: Math Fun

Postby phoneutria » Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:49 am

wait that's wrong. Not twice as much plus .5
Hold on. He gave me back twice as much total, or twice as many euros?
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Re: Math Fun

Postby Arminius » Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:42 pm

phoneutria wrote:entitlement means my change?

It means not your change but my change. :lol:

Entitlements means my change, thus the money I would have got back from her (it was a woman), if she had not miscounted it, and "miscounted" means in this case: confused euro with cent.

phoneutria wrote:I think I got it. Pardon if your hits or james answers already say this is false. I haven't opened any tabs.

(1) The information in the first tab (with the linguistical hint) is not very much more than in the original text, because the main problem with the task in it is mostly not a language (text understanding, translation and so on) problem. So the problem James and you seem to have with my task is probably (I estimated a probability of 90%) no language problem. (2) The information in the second tab (with the linguistical-mathematical hint) is already a key, because the main problem with the said task is the conversion / transformation from a linguistic text into a mathematic "text" (equations and so on). (3) And the information in the third tab (with the mathematical hint) contains already a reference to the first mathematic step in order to attain the whole solution of the task.

phoneutria wrote:If book dude cofused the cent amount with the euro amount, that means that the amount of euros he was supposed to get back was 5.
If he was supposed to get 5 and got twice as much, then he got 10euros.

No. Let me say: If you mean it as your own example, then you are right - of course -, but my story is more complicated than that example. So you are on the wrong way. Please read my text one more time.

phoneutria wrote:He was supposed to get 5 euros, 10cents, but got 10euros, 5 cents.

No. Let me say: If you mean it as your own example, then you are right - of course -, but if you referred it to my story, then it would be false. Again: My example is more complicated than your example. So you are on the wrong way. Please read my text one more time.

phoneutria wrote:Therefore the book cost 94 euros, 90 cents.

No. Let me say: According to your example, but not according to my example. So you are on the wrong way. Please read my text one more time.

phoneutria wrote:Also, no idea why I said 94.80 before. Bot enough coffee i think

If that was right, then coffee would help, because in that example you have at least considered the 5 cents.

phoneutria wrote:wait that's wrong.

Yes. That is wrong.

phoneutria wrote:Not twice as much plus .5
Hold on. He gave me back twice as much total, or twice as many euros?

Again: The "he" was a woman, and she gave me (not you :) ) twice as much (back as my entitlement [for you: change] was) and five cents more back than my entitlement was. .... Comprende?

Good luck!
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Re: Math Fun

Postby James S Saint » Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:50 am

Carleas, listen to the first minute of this guy. He is explaining what my objection was as it applies to all theories (or in our case puzzle-resolutions). The rest is crap, but....



Arminius, I think we need examples of the kind of exchanges and mis-exchanges that you are trying to say are taking place in that puzzle. For example, if you were supposed to get 50.25 euros back but she made that mistake of confusing euros with cents, how much would you have gotten back?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Math Fun

Postby Arminius » Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:17 pm

James S Saint wrote:Arminius, I think we need examples of the kind of exchanges and mis-exchanges that you are trying to say are taking place in that puzzle. For example, if you were supposed to get 50.25 euros back but she made that mistake of confusing euros with cents, how much would you have gotten back?

As I said several times: she made that mistake of confusing euros (for you: dollars) with cents. So now I respond to your example you just made: If I was supposed to get 50.25 euros back but she made the mistake of confusing euros with cents, then I would have gotten back 25.50 euros. Of course! Duh! 25 euros instead of 25 cents and 50 cents instead of 50 euros. Duh!
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Re: Math Fun

Postby James S Saint » Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:04 pm

Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:Arminius, I think we need examples of the kind of exchanges and mis-exchanges that you are trying to say are taking place in that puzzle. For example, if you were supposed to get 50.25 euros back but she made that mistake of confusing euros with cents, how much would you have gotten back?

As I said several times: she made that mistake of confusing euros (for you: dollars) with cents. So now I respond to your example you just made: If I was supposed to get 50.25 euros back but she made the mistake of confusing euros with cents, then I would have gotten back 25.50 euros. Of course! Duh! 25 euros instead of 25 cents and 50 cents instead of 50 euros. Duh!

So to clarify (remove the ambiguity):
The confusion has been that you meant to say that she got only the cents portion of the change confused with euros and the euros portion confused with cents.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Math Fun

Postby phoneutria » Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:09 pm

And that you should consider euros to be a thing, and cents to be another thing, and not as cents being fractions of an euro.
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Re: Math Fun

Postby James S Saint » Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:45 pm

phoneutria wrote:And that you should consider euros to be a thing, and cents to be another thing, and not as cents being fractions of an euro.

Yes (as opposed to euros being an amount).
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

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