Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

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Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby surreptitious57 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:20 am

James wrote:
In consideration of the infinities involved there are an infinity of yous and mes This is an issue of there being a 3D physical universe that is infinite in all directions

Imagine that you are inside a block of space An instrument measures literally every single yoctometer of that space and records its values That would be
an extremely large amount of information but finite

Then realize that the universe has an infinity of those blocks with varied states And it also has an infinity of blocks that has the exact same finite state
as the one describing you at any one instant in time


Whether the Universe is infinite or not is not actually known but if not then it cannot contain an infinity of blocks no matter how small they were
That would be an incredibly large number but still a finite one. I am also very sceptical of the notion of an infinite number of mes in the universe
With no evidence for this it is more ontolological than empirical
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Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby James S Saint » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:25 am

It is certainly the conclusion of logical evidence, not empirical evidence.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby surreptitious57 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:09 am

James wrote:
It is certainly the conclusion of logical evidence not empirical evidence

So is it possible then that it could be logically true but empirically false
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Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby James S Saint » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:13 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
James wrote:
It is certainly the conclusion of logical evidence not empirical evidence

So is it possible then that it could be logically true but empirically false

Mistakes can be made either way. If the logic is flawless, it's conclusion will always be exactly true to reality. If the empirical evidence is not misinterpreted or presumptuous and it's inherent logic is also flawless, then it's conclusion will also be true to reality. False conclusions in the past have always been merely mistakes in the processes.

As far as I can tell, logic demands an infinite physical universe. There can be no empirical evidence concerning an infinite universe either for or against. All inferences concerning a Big Bang and expanding universe have been shown to be weak and presumptuous, most likely religiously inspired.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Posts: 25301
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Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Magnus Anderson » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:12 pm

There's such a thing as "logical evidence". Can you be more stupid than that? A "logical evidence" that proves that "the universe" is "infinite". One meaningless word after another.
It is not important to understand your words. It's sufficient that you pretend that you understand them.
I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
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Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Magnus Anderson » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:46 pm

S57 wrote:Whether the Universe is infinite or not is not actually known


Actually, according to you, nothing is known and nothing can ever be known about the universe for the simple reason that the universe transcends the limit of our knowledge -- our personal experience.
That is if you're a scientist. If you're a philosopher, however, you somehow gain the access to the unknown.

It's too difficult to accept the simple fact that any sequence of words that has no reference to something we have previously experienced is quite simply meaningless.
There can be no reference to the unknown, to the infinite, to the universe, to the beyond . . .

If you want to say that somethiing has no end, you must already know what it means for that something to have an end.
What does it mean for the universe to have an end?
How does that manifest?
I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
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Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby surreptitious57 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:00 pm

James wrote:
It is certainly the conclusion of logical evidence not empirical evidence

Proofs and syllogisms are logical while evidence is scientific or empirical

There is no such thing as logical evidence
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Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby surreptitious57 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:52 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Whether the Universe is infinite or not is not actually known

Actually according to you nothing is known and nothing can ever be known about the universe for the simple reason that the universe transcends the
limit of our knowledge our personal experience. That is if you are a scientist if you are a philosopher however you somehow gain the access to the unknown

Its too difficult to accept the simple fact that any sequence of words that has no reference to something we have previously experienced is quite simply meaningless There can be no reference to the unknown to the infinite to the universe to the beyond

If you want to say that something has no end you must already know what it means for that something to have an end

I have no idea if the Universe is infinite or not but if it isnt then its end or edge [ assuming such a thing actually exists ]
cannot currently be determined as it is expanding beyond light speed
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Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby James S Saint » Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:58 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:There is no such thing as logical evidence

You are amazingly wrong about that.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25301
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby surreptitious57 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:13 pm

Can you show me where I am amazingly wrong for simply asserting it is not good enough
Evidence must be physical and real and not just an abstract concept which is all logic is
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Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Arminius » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:33 pm

James S Saint wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
James wrote:
It is certainly the conclusion of logical evidence not empirical evidence

So is it possible then that it could be logically true but empirically false

Mistakes can be made either way. If the logic is flawless, it's conclusion will always be exactly true to reality. If the empirical evidence is not misinterpreted or presumptuous and it's inherent logic is also flawless, then it's conclusion will also be true to reality. False conclusions in the past have always been merely mistakes in the processes.

As far as I can tell, logic demands an infinite physical universe. There can be no empirical evidence concerning an infinite universe either for or against. All inferences concerning a Big Bang and expanding universe have been shown to be weak and presumptuous, most likely religiously inspired.

Science is not capable of answering philosophic questions like "what is reality?" or "what is nature?" or "what is physics?" and many other philosophic questions that have not to do with empirical evidence.

Arminius wrote:
That would be philosophy as determining reality is an ontological matter not a scientific one

Example: It is not possible that a physical experiment explains what physics "is". This was what Heidegger meant when he said: "Die Wissenschaft denkt nicht" ("the science does not think").

Arminius wrote:Science does not think (cp. Heidegger). Those questions must be answered or at least discussed by philosophers or theologians.
**

So philosophy (especially its ontology) has to say what physics "is" and what reality "is".
**

gib wrote:If science strikes out, then philosophy seems next up to bat. But even that can strike out as history proves. What about one's own personal experiences?

Then you will immediately get the old blame: "You are a subjectivist". Philosophers should not be either subjectivists or objectivists, but should try to overcome the subject/object problem.
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Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby James S Saint » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:55 am

James S Saint wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:There is no such thing as logical evidence

You are amazingly wrong about that.

surreptitious57 wrote:Can you show me where I am amazingly wrong for simply asserting it is not good enough
Evidence must be physical and real and not just an abstract concept which is all logic is

Realize that computers know only logic, no empirical anything. Every time a computer is used by science, logic is being used. Every time mathematics is used, logic is used. For example:

One proposes that if random noise is added to an equal amount of random noise, the result will be merely the same degree of noise as the original. In order to test the hypothesis, a computer is used to create two arrays of random numbers. The arrays are then thoroughly examined for statistic variations and pattern. Then the arrays are added. The result is also examined. The computer repeats the process 10,000 times. If the results show that the degree of randomness did not vary between the original arrays and the resultant arrays, it can be concluded that the hypothesis was right.

That is an entirely, 100% logic process. Yet is yields evidence concerning physical reality.

Every time anyone measures anything and compares it with anything, it is only logic that reveals the "evidence". Data without logic is entirely meaningless. And at times, pure logic, with no physical demonstration, is sufficient evidence.

The truth is that without logic, there is no "evidence" of any kind at all.

Logic is merely the consistency of thought and language.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25301
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Arminius » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:33 am

James S Saint wrote:
James S Saint wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:There is no such thing as logical evidence

You are amazingly wrong about that.

surreptitious57 wrote:Can you show me where I am amazingly wrong for simply asserting it is not good enough
Evidence must be physical and real and not just an abstract concept which is all logic is

Realize that computers know only logic, no empirical anything. Every time a computer is used by science, logic is being used. Every time mathematics is used, logic is used. For example:

One proposes that if random noise is added to an equal amount of random noise, the result will be merely the same degree of noise as the original. In order to test the hypothesis, a computer is used to create two arrays of random numbers. The arrays are then thoroughly examined for statistic variations and pattern. Then the arrays are added. The result is also examined. The computer repeats the process 10,000 times. If the results show that the degree of randomness did not vary between the original arrays and the resultant arrays, it can be concluded that the hypothesis was right.

That is an entirely, 100% logic process. Yet is yields evidence concerning physical reality.

Every time anyone measures anything and compares it with anything, it is only logic that reveals the "evidence". Data without logic is entirely meaningless. And at times, pure logic, with no physical demonstration, is sufficient evidence.

The truth is that without logic, there is no "evidence" of any kind at all.

Logic is merely the consistency of thought and language.

Yup. Yep.
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Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Jakob » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:24 pm

Utterly absurd, as wrong as that is.

A computer works with physical electrons. Bits hitting slots aren't any less empirical than a rock to the head.

As a computer engineer you would also be aware that bits tend to fall, as is the engineering term, from time to time. Thats how many bugs occur. All that happens inside of computers, because they are entirely physical, and engineered in empirical processes. A computer is just a stacker of empirically verified events.
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Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Some Guy in History » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:07 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Some Guy in History wrote:
James S Saint wrote:So you don't have any objection to the actual math. You merely "feel" that the math should show something different?


I just gave you my objection backed up by solid logic and you have nothing to combat it with except 'ad homs'. Should I report you? It's a pity that I'm not as petty as others. A petty pity that I feel no pity.

Oh, I'm sorry. So you thought that was "solid logic". Well, let's see...

Some Guy in History wrote:in the long-term of long-terms of recycled matter and old matter made new and new spirit matter condensed again to physical matter made manifest, we're carried along the lines of eternities past and future, like leylines and the random factor is sentient

Not that such makes a sensible predicate, but...
Some Guy in History wrote:which makes it a very large likelihood that this little story repeats itself

"a very large likelihood"? Is that your premise or your conclusion?

Could you show us the statistics on that? Probability is a matter of number of opportunities versus trials.

Obviously you have no such data, so exactly what is the "solid logic" that brought you to such a priori declaration?

Some Guy in History wrote:for how rare to our own lifespan compared to the larger scale, still far too often for some things liking.

So, because we are small? :-?

Some Guy in History wrote:And, the proof is there in the metaconscious mind

Oh.
Well..
As I said,
James S Saint wrote:So you don't have any objection to the actual math. You merely "feel" that the math should show something different?

Some Guy in History wrote:along with the seemingly inadequate backing of logical thinking as evidenced here by myself.

So your "inadequate backing of logical thinking" is a part of your evidence that the universe repeats itself?
:-?


I guess I am just missing the "solid" part.
.. well, and the "logic" part.
But the rest, I think I understand.



Why don't you actually prove me wrong instead of attacking me with insults, little man.
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Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Kathrina » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:20 am

Jakob wrote:Utterly absurd, as wrong as that is.

A computer works with physical electrons. Bits hitting slots aren't any less empirical than a rock to the head.

As a computer engineer you would also be aware that bits tend to fall, as is the engineering term, from time to time. Thats how many bugs occur. All that happens inside of computers, because they are entirely physical, and engineered in empirical processes. A computer is just a stacker of empirically verified events.

JSS was talking about logic in the sense of the software, not about physics in the sense of the hardware.
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Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Jakob » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:49 pm

Yes, like considering thought but not accounting for the brain.
It just doesnt work like that. Metaphysics is a subset of existence, but some think that because we have a word "existence", existence is a subset of metaphysics.
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Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby James S Saint » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:06 am

Logic is the consistency in thought and language. It has nothing to do with empiricism. But empiricism, or any effort to be rational, cannot occur without such consistencies.

Consistencies in physical behaviors is what causes the universe to be what it is, causes the universe to exist. Thus it isn't wrong to claim that consistency created the physical universe. And that consistency is the "Logic of the physical", the "one underlying principle" (aka "God").
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25301
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Some Guy in History » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:08 pm

James S Saint wrote:Logic is the consistency in thought and language. It has nothing to do with empiricism. But empiricism, or any effort to be rational, cannot occur without such consistencies.

Consistencies in physical behaviors is what causes the universe to be what it is, causes the universe to exist. Thus it isn't wrong to claim that consistency created the physical universe. And that consistency is the "Logic of the physical", the "one underlying principle" (aka "God").


Consistency proved that sanity was repeating the same things over and over and getting different results until the same result was achieved again.
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Halloween wraps fear in innocence, As though it were a slightly sour sweet. Let terror, then, be turned into a treat...
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Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby James S Saint » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:18 pm

Some Guy in History wrote:
James S Saint wrote:Logic is the consistency in thought and language. It has nothing to do with empiricism. But empiricism, or any effort to be rational, cannot occur without such consistencies.

Consistencies in physical behaviors is what causes the universe to be what it is, causes the universe to exist. Thus it isn't wrong to claim that consistency created the physical universe. And that consistency is the "Logic of the physical", the "one underlying principle" (aka "God").


Consistency proved that sanity was repeating the same things over and over and getting different results until the same result was achieved again.

Only inconsistency and insanity could draw such a conclusion.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25301
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Some Guy in History » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:01 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Some Guy in History wrote:
James S Saint wrote:Logic is the consistency in thought and language. It has nothing to do with empiricism. But empiricism, or any effort to be rational, cannot occur without such consistencies.

Consistencies in physical behaviors is what causes the universe to be what it is, causes the universe to exist. Thus it isn't wrong to claim that consistency created the physical universe. And that consistency is the "Logic of the physical", the "one underlying principle" (aka "God").


Consistency proved that sanity was repeating the same things over and over and getting different results until the same result was achieved again.

Only inconsistency and insanity could draw such a conclusion.


then how did it ever say it logically and sanely and rationally and back it up with credible, documentable knowledge and evidence?
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Halloween wraps fear in innocence, As though it were a slightly sour sweet. Let terror, then, be turned into a treat...
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Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby James S Saint » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:48 pm

Some Guy in History wrote:then how did it ever say it logically and sanely and rationally and back it up with credible, documentable knowledge and evidence?

I would ask you what makes you think that "it" did, but the last time I asked that, we found that there was no actual evidence for your belief at all. You seem to believe and defend ideas without having any idea from whence the idea arose or why you were inspired to accept it, yet you emotionally defend it anyway.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25301
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Some Guy in History » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:31 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Some Guy in History wrote:then how did it ever say it logically and sanely and rationally and back it up with credible, documentable knowledge and evidence?

I would ask you what makes you think that "it" did, but the last time I asked that, we found that there was no actual evidence for your belief at all. You seem to believe and defend ideas without having any idea from whence the idea arose or why you were inspired to accept it, yet you emotionally defend it anyway.


I wonder what evidence you would actually consider and accept as 'actual', if you won't accept what is able to be presented. You haven't been able to disprove it and only seem to be trying along faulty methods instead of actually bringing to the table evidence to back up your anti-thesis. I still, at the least, brought forth more evidence to support than you do to prove otherwise.
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