How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:55 pm

phyllo wrote:This is an admission that RM 'results' can't be compared to observations since the is no conversion between real world measurements and RM units.

The measurements can't be - yet.
The Logic can be.
But just as it takes someone knowing math to verify math, it takes someone knowing logic to verify logic.

phyllo wrote:
What RM does most is give logically based coherent understanding of what is already observed, unlike quantum magic. RM is about WHY things are they way they are.
That's what Aristotle was doing. But that approach had to be abandoned because the logic did not in fact match observations.

Aristotle made "plausible assumptions" for his axioms.
RM makes no assumptions.

phyllo wrote:You're a clever man and you can certainly weave together a plausible explanation for how and why things might be. How closely does the explanation match the world? If it matches well, then it is a truth or a useful fiction. If it doesn't match, then it is a waste of time or an entertaining fiction.

That is exactly my point. I have stated that many times. Anyone can build any kind of coherent ontology. The proof is in the final pudding.
So far, RM matches every single observation of modern physics.
Modern physics theories are what RM disagrees with, not the observations.
And in addition, RM answers the mysteries that modern physics claims to not be able to answer.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby Abstract » Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:06 pm

James S Saint wrote:A "potential" is a situation (like a glass sitting on the edge of a table without sufficient balance to remain there. The glass "has the potential to fall"). To change a potential requires only a change in the situation.

Each point within a situation is a part of the situation and thus a part of the potential of the entire situation as well as being, with its immediate surroundings, a situation in itself. The situation is one wherein balance cannot be achieved wherein the situation would not dictate that it become different. Thus it eternally changes = "the physical universe".

It is "the situation OF the situation" being logically unstable. The situation cannot be what it is and remain what it is. Thus it changes, forming time and substance. The universe is merely "the substance of a changing situation" = Affectance.
But then this "affectance" is governed by time... so what is time?
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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby Helandhighwater » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:18 am

Well if we are going to be accurate he really kinda plagiarised other theorists who had already said the same thing but not necessarily in strictly mathematical terms or in a form that was totally derivable from experimental concerns: from Newton who said that light was energy and equivalent hence to all mass objects, paraphrasing there: to Boltzman and others the equation had already been rigidly framed in both maths and argument, the only difference is Einstein clearly showed it in a testable system. However the equation E=mc^2 has been written at least a half dozen times from the 18th to 19th century although not in the exact same terms, but close enough as to make no appreciable difference.

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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby James S Saint » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:15 am

Abstract wrote:But then this "affectance" is governed by time... so what is time?

Time is merely the measure of how much change has occurred relative to some other change. That is why time seems relative. All measurements are relative.

Helandhighwater wrote:Well if we are going to be accurate he really kinda plagiarised other theorists who had already said the same thing but not necessarily in strictly mathematical terms or in a form that was totally derivable from experimental concerns: from Newton who said that light was energy and equivalent hence to all mass objects, paraphrasing there: to Boltzman and others the equation had already been rigidly framed in both maths and argument, the only difference is Einstein clearly showed it in a testable system. However the equation E=mc^2 has been written at least a half dozen times from the 18th to 19th century although not in the exact same terms, but close enough as to make no appreciable difference.

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."

Albert Einstein.

Would you happen to have references sources for any of that?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby Helandhighwater » Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:10 am

Helandhighwater wrote:Would you happen to have references sources for any of that?


I do but since I am about to be permanently banned by a fucktard I fail to seen the need to supply them, so I wont. Look them up for yourself if you can be bothered.
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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby Hobbes Choice » Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:56 pm

Jakob wrote:And how come the measure of joule turns out to be fitted so neatly to the measure of m/s?


Einstein used his imagination. He looked at a sunbeam and asked what it would be like to travel on the wave.

Joules, metres and seconds is a completely circular argument.
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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby Twiffy » Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:29 am

Popped my head back in, and then remembered why I so rarely do. This thread is a travesty.

Phyllo, you called out James Saint in exactly the right way. Well done. Hopefully everyone understands enough of science to know that him failing to generate a prediction validated by experiement means he's full of shit.

PhysBang, you seem like you are both rational and actually have some education. You poor bastard, what are you doing at ILP? I'm in math; I mostly work in algebraic topology and quantum field theory. PM me if you like.

The rest of you either seem corrupt and/or delusional (Saint), or else good-natured but lacking sufficient training in science to know that the corrupt ones are full of shit.

Here are some helpful hints:
1) Real scientists talk a lot more like PhysBang, and a lot less like anyone else on this thread.
2) If someone claims to have a theory that supercedes the best of the modern theories, he is a crackpot. If he tells you this theory without using a lot of complicated math, he's a stupid crackpot.
3) If someone says he has sources for his claim, but refuses to produce them *for any reason whatsoever*, he is lying.
4) If the science in question is physics and someone says "you can loosely think of a photon as [simple idea X]", that might be fine. If that person says "a photon IS just [simple idea X]", he is a crackpot.
5) If you actually want to ask a question about science, and you can't tell the real thing from the con artists, NEVER ASK IN A PHILOSOPHY FORUM. This is because even professional philosophers don't know a damn thing about science, and armchair philosophers are much, much worse. For physics, ask here instead: http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/ask
6) If you want to understand anything about physics in the 20th century or beyond, you need to know math. Sure, E=mc^2 has some vague intuition behind it, but if you really want to know why, you have to walk through the mathematical derivation. This is why physics is considered a hard subject -- if you want to know why something is true, you have to follow the math. If someone says they can sell you a quick intuition, at best it's something that's vaguely related, but more likely, it's complete bullshit.

Finally, the wikipedia article on E=mc^2 is quite interesting, and clears up the one or two correct things said in this thread, together with the writhing mass of bullshit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalence#The_first_derivation_by_Einstein_.281905.29
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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby Hobbes Choice » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:05 am

Twiffy wrote:Here are some helpful hints:
1) Real scientists talk a lot more like PhysBang, and a lot less like anyone else on this thread.

This is a philosophy Forum. Have you ever heard of the "No true Scotsman fallacy"?


2) If someone claims to have a theory that supercedes the best of the modern theories, he is a crackpot. If he tells you this theory without using a lot of complicated math, he's a stupid crackpot.

Charles Darwin superseded previous and widely held theories on evolution - and did so without ANY maths whatever.

3) If someone says he has sources for his claim, but refuses to produce them *for any reason whatsoever*, he is lying.

Not necessarily. Please cite this theory!


5) If you actually want to ask a question about science, and you can't tell the real thing from the con artists, NEVER ASK IN A PHILOSOPHY FORUM. This is because even professional philosophers don't know a damn thing about science, and armchair philosophers are much, much worse. For physics, ask here instead: http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/ask

All the best scientists are also philosophers. This has been the case since the dawn of human history.
And has the basis of 20thC science has come from a person dedicated to philosophy and NOT science; I name Karl Popper, then what you say can be safely consigned to the round metal fining space on the floor PLONK!

6) If you want to understand anything about physics in the 20th century or beyond, you need to know math. Sure, E=mc^2 has some vague intuition behind it, but if you really want to know why, you have to walk through the mathematical derivation. This is why physics is considered a hard subject -- if you want to know why something is true, you have to follow the math. If someone says they can sell you a quick intuition, at best it's something that's vaguely related, but more likely, it's complete bullshit.

I think if you really thought about these questions, then you would probably not be wasting everyones' time here.


Finally, the wikipedia article on E=mc^2 is quite interesting, and clears up the one or two correct things said in this thread, together with the writhing mass of bullshit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalence#The_first_derivation_by_Einstein_.281905.29


Great - I suggest yo use that as your bible and leave the Philosophy to others.
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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby PhysBang » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:12 pm

Hobbes Choice wrote:This is a philosophy Forum. Have you ever heard of the "No true Scotsman fallacy"?

I agree that simply having a similar writing style is not something to judge claims. However, doing philosophy about something should not be done in complete ignorance.
Charles Darwin superseded previous and widely held theories on evolution - and did so without ANY maths whatever.

The real success of his theory relies on quite a lot of mathematics. However, here we seem to be talking about physics and in particular about physics that is about subtle changes in position that rely on precise measurement. The first real test of general relativity relies upon the determination of 43/360ths of a degree of change in the orbit of Mercury out of about 538/360ths of a change over an entire century.

Einstein's great achievements were aided by his imagination, but guided by his abilities in mathematics. He even co-created a new field of math for GR.
5) If you actually want to ask a question about science, and you can't tell the real thing from the con artists, NEVER ASK IN A PHILOSOPHY FORUM. This is because even professional philosophers don't know a damn thing about science, and armchair philosophers are much, much worse. For physics, ask here instead: [url]http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/ask

All the best scientists are also philosophers. This has been the case since the dawn of human history.

God no! Science has become a very specialized discipline, as has philosophy. There is a lot of trash out there written by physicists who think that they can simply relax when they write philosophy. This is not true of all of them, but it is definitely something to watch out for. Similarly, physics is nt something that one can merely armchair into correctness (sorry, Leibniz).
And has the basis of 20thC science has come from a person dedicated to philosophy and NOT science; I name Karl Popper, then what you say can be safely consigned to the round metal fining space on the floor PLONK!

What science did he ever produce? He produced a very limited philosophy of science, one that is not widespread in popularity among philosophers of science--it is known, but not preferred.
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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby Ed3 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:49 pm

Hi Guys,

Some of my favorite people are here!

PhysBang, you wrote:

"He even co-created a new field of math for GR".

I am not exactly sure about the field to which you are referring. I do know that Einstein cleaned up some tensor notation. Could you elaborate?

Ed
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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby Helandhighwater » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:07 pm

Twiffy wrote:Popped my head back in, and then remembered why I so rarely do. This thread is a travesty.

Phyllo, you called out James Saint in exactly the right way. Well done. Hopefully everyone understands enough of science to know that him failing to generate a prediction validated by experiement means he's full of shit.

PhysBang, you seem like you are both rational and actually have some education. You poor bastard, what are you doing at ILP? I'm in math; I mostly work in algebraic topology and quantum field theory. PM me if you like.

The rest of you either seem corrupt and/or delusional (Saint), or else good-natured but lacking sufficient training in science to know that the corrupt ones are full of shit.

Here are some helpful hints:
1) Real scientists talk a lot more like PhysBang, and a lot less like anyone else on this thread.
2) If someone claims to have a theory that supercedes the best of the modern theories, he is a crackpot. If he tells you this theory without using a lot of complicated math, he's a stupid crackpot.
3) If someone says he has sources for his claim, but refuses to produce them *for any reason whatsoever*, he is lying.
4) If the science in question is physics and someone says "you can loosely think of a photon as [simple idea X]", that might be fine. If that person says "a photon IS just [simple idea X]", he is a crackpot.
5) If you actually want to ask a question about science, and you can't tell the real thing from the con artists, NEVER ASK IN A PHILOSOPHY FORUM. This is because even professional philosophers don't know a damn thing about science, and armchair philosophers are much, much worse. For physics, ask here instead: http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/ask
6) If you want to understand anything about physics in the 20th century or beyond, you need to know math. Sure, E=mc^2 has some vague intuition behind it, but if you really want to know why, you have to walk through the mathematical derivation. This is why physics is considered a hard subject -- if you want to know why something is true, you have to follow the math. If someone says they can sell you a quick intuition, at best it's something that's vaguely related, but more likely, it's complete bullshit.

Finally, the wikipedia article on E=mc^2 is quite interesting, and clears up the one or two correct things said in this thread, together with the writhing mass of bullshit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalence#The_first_derivation_by_Einstein_.281905.29


You should probably post on any thread James opines on, you will be ignored, but it's one of those things. James hasn't the mathematical background to do a model that makes sense so he waffles. The rest of us are told he is right by people because he says so, and on it goes. If it's worth anything I am studying physics although at a pace that would stun icebergs into immobility and I agree with everything you said. Philosophy wise James has of course talked the talk, although even that seems merely a repetition of already existent science philosophy. Actual science abandon hope all ye who enter his threads, you are not going to see science ever. Nor should you expect to, nor should you expect him to answer you, but hell try it anyway, his wall of obtuseness does need to be tackled by people who know what they are talking about, I can assure you James doesn't.

Every single point you make has been tried by dozens of people, there seems though a wall of obstinacy that allows non science and conjecture but disallows actual science to enter the discussion. You should try it, it is exactly why you should not come to this forum for any real information about science. This is not the place for it. Which is fair enough I suppose, I just wish people would stop acting as apologists for utter conjecture with no chance at evidence ever as if it is anything more than the religion it is. Hallowed be thy claim... ;)
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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby Moreno » Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:29 am

PhysBang wrote:
And has the basis of 20thC science has come from a person dedicated to philosophy and NOT science; I name Karl Popper, then what you say can be safely consigned to the round metal fining space on the floor PLONK!

What science did he ever produce? He produced a very limited philosophy of science, one that is not widespread in popularity among philosophers of science--it is known, but not preferred.

I am amazed how much Popper is whipped outin philosophical discussions as if his conclusions are either philosophical consensus or scientific consensus. Probablistic induction is doing much better in both Groups than his proposals. That said he certainly inspired excellent debate in epistemology and the philosophy of science, but as an appeal to authority, he's a weak one.
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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby Hobbes Choice » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:42 am

PhysBang wrote:
Hobbes Choice wrote:This is a philosophy Forum. Have you ever heard of the "No true Scotsman fallacy"?

I agree that simply having a similar writing style is not something to judge claims. However, doing philosophy about something should not be done in complete ignorance.
In that case I expect you will crawl back under your rock

Charles Darwin superseded previous and widely held theories on evolution - and did so without ANY maths whatever.

The real success of his theory relies on quite a lot of mathematics.

I can see you have never taken the trouble to read his books. Origin of Species has no maths in it at all, nor does Descent of Man

However, here we seem to be talking about physics and in particular about physics that is about subtle changes in position that rely on precise measurement. The first real test of general relativity relies upon the determination of 43/360ths of a degree of change in the orbit of Mercury out of about 538/360ths of a change over an entire century.

But verified by a single non mathematical observation during a solar eclipse.


All the best scientists are also philosophers. This has been the case since the dawn of human history.

God no! Science has become a very specialized discipline, as has philosophy. There is a lot of trash out there written by physicists who think that they can simply relax when they write philosophy. This is not true of all of them, but it is definitely something to watch out for. Similarly, physics is nt something that one can merely armchair into correctness (sorry, Leibniz).

You are just ignorant of the Intellectual History of the Subject.

And has the basis of 20thC science has come from a person dedicated to philosophy and NOT science; I name Karl Popper, then what you say can be safely consigned to the round metal fining space on the floor PLONK!

What science did he ever produce? He produced a very limited philosophy of science, one that is not widespread in popularity among philosophers of science--it is known, but not preferred.[/quote]

Ignorance upon ignorance. Popper is the most influential philosopher of science of the 20thC - superseded by none. in the Number 2 spot is Kuhn.
You are a waste of space. Has a science Forum closed from lack of interest, that you troll on this one?
The trouble with science is that it is only descriptive. It's no wonder we get refugees that come here looking for something a bit more stimulating.

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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby PhysBang » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:24 pm

Hobbes Choice wrote:In that case I expect you will crawl back under your rock

Are you sure that you want to be calling people ignorant before you figure out how to use the "quote" function?
I can see you have never taken the trouble to read his books. Origin of Species has no maths in it at all, nor does Descent of Man

Darwin did great work with little direct mathematical appeal, but I never claimed that he used a lot of mathematics in those books. I claim that the success of his theories rests on a lot of mathematical work. The success of evolutionary theory relies on a lot of measurements and statistical inferences.
However, here we seem to be talking about physics and in particular about physics that is about subtle changes in position that rely on precise measurement. The first real test of general relativity relies upon the determination of 43/360ths of a degree of change in the orbit of Mercury out of about 538/360ths of a change over an entire century.

But verified by a single non mathematical observation during a solar eclipse.

It takes far, far more than a single observation to provide significant support to a theory. In any case, the observation you cite relied on the ability of the observation to provide a measurement of the amount of bending of light produced by the sun. The observation was supposed to show that the amount of bending was twice that predicted by the Newtonian theory of the day.
You are just ignorant of the Intellectual History of the Subject.

You can say that if it makes you feel better.

Ignorance upon ignorance. Popper is the most influential philosopher of science of the 20thC - superseded by none.

Really? Kuhn has sold far more books and probably has far more references. I have never heard any professional philosopher or historian claim that anyone in the 20thC philosophy of science was more influential than Kuhn, even though vanishingly few of them think that Kuhn was right. Popper seems to be a good choice for second and that influence does seem to be somewhat deeper. But few people think that Popper is the last or best word on science.
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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby Hobbes Choice » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:32 pm

PhysBang wrote:Darwin did great work with little direct mathematical appeal, but I never claimed that he used a lot of mathematics in those books. I claim that the success of his theories rests on a lot of mathematical work. The success of evolutionary theory relies on a lot of measurements and statistical inferences.


No. you are squirming. You attacked me when I refuted this:
[i]
2) If someone claims to have a theory that supercedes the best of the modern theories, he is a crackpot. If he tells you this theory without using a lot of complicated math, he's a stupid crackpot.



But verified by a single non mathematical observation during a solar eclipse.
PhysBang wrote:It takes far, far more than a single observation to provide significant support to a theory.


Once again you talk from ignorance here as you did with Darwin above.
Arthur Eddington, verified Einstein's theory by means of a simple observation during a solar eclipse.

Please educate yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Eddington
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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby Twiffy » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:51 pm

HobbesChoice,

I was the one who made that claim, not PhysBang. And there are two reasons why my claim is right.

1) Darwin came up with theory of evolution *one hundred and fifty years ago*. Science has changed dramatically since then. Much as being a lone inventor used to be a career path for the solitary genius but now everyone works for corporations, lone scientists who can generate entirely new theories are no longer part of the picture. This is because in science and regarding inventions, most of the low-hanging fruit has been picked; what remains is too complex for one person to solve alone.

2) If there were, somehow, a lone genius who was able to generate an entirely new theory without working alongside others -- well, this genius might *work* in a Swiss patent office, but he sure as hell wouldn't waste his time telling the other clerks about it. For example, I have created new theorems and advanced mathematical theory. (I'm not bragging that I'm some great genius -- by definition every mathematican has done the same thing.) But (excepting as an example) I don't go on ILP and say, "guess what! All fully nonarchimedean compact sets are countable, and so all existing theorems that purport to tackle nonarchimedean behavior by appealing to a standard finiteness condition have to be discarded! And I AM THE FIRST PERSON EVER TO DISCOVER THIS." This is because people here might be interested, and I could explain it to them, but they would get very little out of it, and I would benefit even less. It would be exactly like you doing something important at work, everyone being pleased with you, and then you going home and bragging about this to your 7-yr old child.

No, even if someone were to generate a new theory, they would be publishing this in peer-reviewed journals and getting appointments at Princeton. They would certainly not brag about it on ILP.
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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby Hobbes Choice » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:59 pm

Twiffy wrote:HobbesChoice,

I was the one who made that claim, not PhysBang. And there are two reasons why my claim is right.

1) Darwin came up with theory of evolution *one hundred and fifty years ago*. Science has changed dramatically since then. Much as being a lone inventor used to be a career path for the solitary genius but now everyone works for corporations, lone scientists who can generate entirely new theories are no longer part of the picture. This is because in science and regarding inventions, most of the low-hanging fruit has been picked; what remains is too complex for one person to solve alone.

2) If there were, somehow, a lone genius who was able to generate an entirely new theory without working alongside others -- well, this genius might *work* in a Swiss patent office, but he sure as hell wouldn't waste his time telling the other clerks about it. For example, I have created new theorems and advanced mathematical theory. (I'm not bragging that I'm some great genius -- by definition every mathematican has done the same thing.) But (excepting as an example) I don't go on ILP and say, "guess what! All fully nonarchimedean compact sets are countable, and so all existing theorems that purport to tackle nonarchimedean behavior by appealing to a standard finiteness condition have to be discarded! And I AM THE FIRST PERSON EVER TO DISCOVER THIS." This is because people here might be interested, and I could explain it to them, but they would get very little out of it, and I would benefit even less. It would be exactly like you doing something important at work, everyone being pleased with you, and then you going home and bragging about this to your 7-yr old child.

No, even if someone were to generate a new theory, they would be publishing this in peer-reviewed journals and getting appointments at Princeton. They would certainly not brag about it on ILP.


Two problems then.
1) Due to your claim you are still characterising Darwin as a "stupid crackpot'.
2) You are view science in a very restricted way, discluding the human sciences whose theories can still be generated without complex maths.

PS. If someone claims to have a theory that supercedes the best of the modern theories, he is a crackpot. Is still bullshit. I suggest you reduce the hyperbole.
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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby Ed3 » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:10 pm

Hi Twiffy,

A short note to let you know that I bought Joy of Cats and had some interesting coincidences.

About a year ago, I sat in on a Cal Tech class on Topology. Cal Tech has the most restrictive admittance requirements for math in the country. Anyway, what appeared to be the smartest guy in the class asked for and received permission to take supplemental lessons in category theory. I think this partially confirms your comments on the subject matter.

Further, large collections were discussed in the introduction, or somewhere early in the text, and I think that I will incorporate them somewhere in the text that I am preparing for a post on Principia Mathematica.

I just thought that you should know that your recommendation did not completely go for not.

Thanks Ed

Hi HC,

I finally have decided that it will be likely that I will make a post on Principia Mathematica. It took forever for me to commit to the post. Sorry!

Ed
"Albert! Stop telling God what to do." - Niels Bohr
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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby Twiffy » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:16 pm

HobbesChoice, this is my last response to you barring you saying something particularly interesting. I don't mean offense -- it's just that this current exchange isn't something I'm going to continue.

1) No, I'm not; Darwin was alive during a simpler era of science, and furthermore he never bragged about his new theory on ILP. For these reasons my claim doesn't apply to him. This was the point of my entire last post - read it more carefully.
2) My overall point had nothing to do with math. Even for a genius psychologist it is virtually guaranteed that he'll never generate and populate an entirely new theory on his own; and if he did, he would publish and become famous, rather than about going on ILP and bragging about his unpublished, untested and non-peer-reviewed theory.
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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby Twiffy » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:17 pm

Ed, outstanding! That sounds wonderful. How are your experiences so far with the book, and what did you think of the class?

Love to take a look at the text once you have a draft.
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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby Ed3 » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:41 pm

Hi Twiffy,

I am sorry to say that I have only read a small part of category theory. (Twenty lashes, I know I deserve it). I still hope to read more. I actually brought the book with me to Cal Tech but I thought it would look too much like a prop, so I left it in the car.

It would have been cool if the smart kid and I sat down and worked on it after class.

I am a little sensitive to the age difference. They are probably 18 to 20 years old and I am 63. But much to their credit they don’t even seem to see the age difference.

I would be happy to send you a draft of my post. It is only about 5 to 6 pages so far and I have not yet gotten to Principia. This weekend I might be able to complete the background.

Well… maybe not. I still want to complete the other foundations and try give lay people a background on the methodology for dealing with infinity.
Anyway, I will try to get the background section to you soon.

Thanks Ed

P.S.
The class was on coverings. for me it was a little boring.
Last edited by Ed3 on Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby PhysBang » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:52 pm

Hobbes Choice wrote:
No. you are squirming.

Do not fault me for your failure to read what I wrote very carefully.

You attacked me when I refuted this:
[i]
2) If someone claims to have a theory that supercedes the best of the modern theories, he is a crackpot. If he tells you this theory without using a lot of complicated math, he's a stupid crackpot.

You have not refuted that, at all.
PhysBang wrote:It takes far, far more than a single observation to provide significant support to a theory.


Once again you talk from ignorance here as you did with Darwin above.
Arthur Eddington, verified Einstein's theory by means of a simple observation during a solar eclipse.

You really should bother to read some history on that subject before you go embarrassing yourself again. Can you point to anything I said about the details that was incorrect?
Last edited by PhysBang on Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby Helandhighwater » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:55 pm

Speaking of history the progenitor of E=mc^2 or at least energy mass equivalence as I opined earlier was not actually Einstein. Since someone asked for sources here is one:

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/new ... mc-squared

It had been around for a while, which of course does nothing to denigrate his efforts to put it into a scientifically testable and consistent hypothesis which could be shown.

In fact even before the 20th and even the 19th century some people were well used to the idea that there was an equivalence between energy and mass.

I can't remember or find the exact quote Newton used to describe equivalence, but it ran along the lines of light being related in it's proportion to the mass of an object.
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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby James S Saint » Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:42 am

What the "bullshit" is quite seriously is, "if my worshipful masters didn't say, then it is bullshit". It is just another of the very many examples of the weak minded accusing others of their own guilt.

Note that Ed3 has NEVER done that.
.. nor have I.


..and a wise man doesn't "publish" anything until he assesses the responses to it... even from the "crackpot"" worshipers.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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Re: How did Einstein arrive at E=mc^2?

Postby Helandhighwater » Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:51 am

James S Saint wrote:What the "bullshit" is quite seriously is, "if my worshipful masters didn't say, then it is bullshit". It is just another of the very many examples of the weak minded accusing others of their own guilt.

Note that Ed3 has NEVER done that.
.. nor have I.


..and a wise man doesn't "publish" anything until he assesses the responses to it... even from the "crackpot"" worshipers.


Well that rant was random.

The problem is not that you assess the responses, it's the affect that you see all negative criticism as brainwashed conspiracy by the establishment to keep you down, which is why you in fact will always be a crackpot, and it is why you will never publish anything. And don't think I am saying this just to keep you down, you are doing it to yourself your putting yourself in a position that is so anti any sort of scientific method that no one will ever listen to you. If you don't play the game by the rules James you will never publish anything. Which is of course sad, we need thinkers and dreamers, what we don't need is supercilious people who think they can bypass the whole scientific process with conjecture, get a free ride just because they have some conjectural idea that denies all scientific progress. Telling others that they are crackpots because they at least went the whole nine yards is another symptom of the crackpot. James everyone who knows anything about anything is telling you you are not right, this is not because they are jealous of your brilliance, brainwashed or just don't get how mighty you are, this is because you are so devout in your belief that your religion is all you can hear.

James you publish something in the future and when you do send me a paper in an accredited journal and I will thank all that is holy that you actually listened to someone at some point. I dare you, I double dare you. Sadly I think you will remain a crank all your life, and that I do not want. You have to wake up and smell the coffee though, you cannot magically pass GO! and collect £200 pounds without actually passing GO!
"smoke me a kipper Skipper I'll be back for Breakfast."

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