How gravity works

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Re: How gravity works

Postby James S Saint » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:39 pm

Some Guy in History wrote:Yeah, but I have a leg to stand on scientifically and interweaving with nature to actually look at what is there. Do you have something to actually legitly contradict what I have theorized and hypothesized or are you just babbling?

In fear of boasting, I am way, way past your confusions. But just to help get you started, think about this one issue first:

When a large object is set to spin and there is a small object lightly attached, would you expect the small object to fly off of the larger one, or to press down more tightly? Most would recognize merely intuitively that the smaller object would fly off of the larger. That is the effect called "centrifugal force". And in order to keep the small object upon the larger while it spins (such as a person upon the Earth), a "centripetal force" must be applied to hold the smaller object down onto the larger. The nomenclature has been established to call that inherent centripetal force, "gravity".

That is merely the issue of what is called by which name: gravity is the centripetal force from the mass of a larger object holding a small object down, not the centrifugal force from the spin which attempts to drive the object up and away. The Earth's spin actually causes objects to be slightly lighter at the equator where the velocity of the spin is greatest. Water tends to travel toward that equator (forcing the ice toward the poles). If the Earth spun fast enough, the ocean water would begin to spray up into the air along the equator seemingly all by itself.

The Moon orbits the Earth due to a velocity that it acquired long ago. The Earth's spin has nearly nothing to do with it (except that the Moon was probably a part of the Earth very long ago). In the Moon's orbit, both the centripetal and the centrifugal "forces" are balanced, thus the Moon goes neither away nor nearer, but merely orbits the Earth. The Earth's mass provides the centripetal force and the momentum of the Moon provides the centrifugal force.

None of that explains WHY gravity works. All of that was merely to catch you up to the designated nomenclature and very well established science involved. WHY gravity works is currently beyond public science, but is easy to understand with a little different education.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: How gravity works

Postby Some Guy in History » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:59 pm

That was completely irrelevant to the discussion.
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Re: How gravity works

Postby James S Saint » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:02 pm

Some Guy in History wrote:That was completely irrelevant to the discussion.

:lol:

Hardly .. #-o
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25251
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: How gravity works

Postby Some Guy in History » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:06 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Some Guy in History wrote:That was completely irrelevant to the discussion.

:lol:

Hardly .. #-o


It is, though. It's side-tracking. How the moon goes around the Earth is completely different from explaining how gravity works, which is what I did in rudimentary form. There are, undoubtedly, other things that go into play in creating the atmospheric conditions we know as well as our gravitational forces. I don't know everything and don't pretend to. All I ever said is that I know enough to go off of and I don't leap before looking. I make sure there's enough evidence reinforcing what I believe and then I even believe contrary and contradictory to it just to challenge it and if it ceases to make sense, I discard it. What I have posted above is an accumulation over time of thought and observance and not just a 'sophomoric' approach.

And, I am going to take it seriously when you step to and try to discredit an actual idea. You wanted to fight this fight and it gets nastier from here on out.
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As spirits roam the neighborhoods at night, Let loose upon the Earth till it be light...

Halloween wraps fear in innocence, As though it were a slightly sour sweet. Let terror, then, be turned into a treat...
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Re: How gravity works

Postby James S Saint » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:18 pm

Some Guy in History wrote:explaining how gravity works, which is what I did in rudimentary form.

No, you did not. You began your explanation with:
Some Guy in History wrote:Our gravity comes from the fact that we spin on our axis giving the illusion of the sun setting and the moon waxing and waning, creating centripetal forces spinning

I merely mentioned that spinning causes centrifugal force, flying off, not centripetal, being held down.


Some Guy in History wrote: I don't know everything and don't pretend to. All I ever said is that I know enough to go off of and I don't leap before looking.

Well, I am afraid that you have actually leaped before looking (and not only on this topic). Leaping before looking seems to be your motif (hence the "sophomore syndrome" - learning a little more causing a feeling of knowing a lot more).

Some Guy in History wrote: I make sure there's enough evidence reinforcing what I believe

No, clearly you do not. But at least you recognize that one should.

Some Guy in History wrote:and then I even believe contrary and contradictory to it just to challenge it and if it ceases to make sense, I discard it. What I have posted above is an accumulation over time of thought and observance and not just a 'sophomoric' approach.

Perhaps a better approach would be to discuss it on a forum like this wherein people can show you errors that you would not have caught yourself (aka "Resolution Debating") .. BEFORE drawing conclusions.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25251
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: How gravity works

Postby Some Guy in History » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:27 pm

I merely mentioned that spinning causes centrifugal force, flying off, not centripetal, being held down.


And all I said in response to that was that you only described one side of Centrifugal force. The standard definition. That standard is incomplete without the flip side which you claim to be centripetal and yet is still wholly different than Centripetal.

Well, I am afraid that you have actually leaped before looking (and not only on this topic). Leaping before looking seems to be your motif (hence the "sophomore syndrome" - learning a little more causing a feeling of knowing a lot more).


How do you figure when I knew enough of what I was talking about before talking about and still have not made a complete ass out of myself like you have.

No, clearly you do not. But at least you recognize that one should.


I have proven that I do beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Perhaps a better approach would be to discuss it on a forum like this wherein people can show you errors that you would not have caught yourself (aka "Resolution Debating") .. BEFORE drawing conclusions.


Perhaps you all would be wise to do the same and take your own advice. I'm going to bypass the standard return insult of 'but at least you recognize that one should' because it's fucking trite. Besides, if you have such experience, isn't that what we're doing here and this forum that is similarly designed for this? Is that not what you yourself are bringing in bullshit fashion: opposition?
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As spirits roam the neighborhoods at night, Let loose upon the Earth till it be light...

Halloween wraps fear in innocence, As though it were a slightly sour sweet. Let terror, then, be turned into a treat...
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Re: How gravity works

Postby James S Saint » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:10 pm

Try to avoid being blind to how much it is your loss and not mine.

If you don't care how people perceive you, I certainly have no reason to either.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25251
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: How gravity works

Postby Some Guy in History » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:47 pm

James S Saint wrote:Try to avoid being blind to how much it is your loss and not mine.

If you don't care how people perceive you, I certainly have no reason to either.


I find that my perception of myself should mean more than what other people perceive, since they often perceive negatively and come at me in attack when I never bother to think of attacking them. I am about the pursuit and furthering of knowledge and since, strangely, that's happening while there's fighting, then I'm learning to enjoy the fighting. How am I losing?
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As spirits roam the neighborhoods at night, Let loose upon the Earth till it be light...

Halloween wraps fear in innocence, As though it were a slightly sour sweet. Let terror, then, be turned into a treat...
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Re: How gravity works

Postby James S Saint » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:22 pm

Some Guy in History wrote:I find that my perception of myself should mean more than what other people perceive, since they often perceive negatively and come at me in attack when I never bother to think of attacking them.

As they say, "Another one is born every minute".

... and that is how you are "losing".
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25251
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: How gravity works

Postby Some Guy in History » Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:34 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Some Guy in History wrote:I find that my perception of myself should mean more than what other people perceive, since they often perceive negatively and come at me in attack when I never bother to think of attacking them.

As they say, "Another one is born every minute".

... and that is how you are "losing".



There are lot's of reasons why I'm 'losing'; but don't ever mistake my loss as a loss and anything less than the victory it is.
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As spirits roam the neighborhoods at night, Let loose upon the Earth till it be light...

Halloween wraps fear in innocence, As though it were a slightly sour sweet. Let terror, then, be turned into a treat...
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Re: How gravity works

Postby Jakob » Fri May 19, 2017 8:10 pm

Farsight wrote:WHAT EINSTEIN SAID

People say the speed of light is constant, and Einstein said it. But that’s... not... entirely... true, Mr President. Yes, Einstein started with this as a postulate in 1905, but in 1911 he wrote On the Influence of Gravitation on the Propagation of Light, where we can see his ideas evolving. He gives the expression c = c0 (1 + Φ/c²), which is c varying with gravitational potential. Then in 1912 he said it again when he wrote "On the other hand I am of the view that the principle of the constancy of the velocity of light can be maintained only insofar as one restricts oneself to spatio-temporal regions of constant gravitational potential". He repeated this in 1913 when he said this: "I arrived at the result that the velocity of light is not to be regarded as independent of the gravitational potential. Thus the principle of the constancy of the velocity of light is incompatible with the equivalence hypothesis".

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Wikipedia commons public domain image, Solvay 1911 crop uploaded by Fastfission

This wasn’t just some early thought that he later discarded, because there it is again in 1915 when he says " the writer of these lines is of the opinion that the theory of relativity is still in need of generalization, in the sense that the principle of the constancy of the velocity of light is to be abandoned." That’s on page 259 of Doc 21, sorry, I’m not sure what the original paper is called. He says it again in late 1915, on page 150 of Doc 30, within The Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity. Einstein says "the principle of the constancy of the velocity of light in vacuo must be modified.". He spells it out in section 22 of the 1916 book Relativity: The Special and General Theory where he says this:

"In the second place our result shows that, according to the general theory of relativity, the law of the constancy of the velocity of light in vacuo, which constitutes one of the two fundamental assumptions in the special theory of relativity and to which we have already frequently referred, cannot claim any unlimited validity. A curvature of rays of light can only take place when the velocity of propagation of light varies with position. Now we might think that as a consequence of this, the special theory of relativity and with it the whole theory of relativity would be laid in the dust. But in reality this is not the case. We can only conclude that the special theory of relativity cannot claim an unlimited domain of validity; its results hold only so long as we are able to disregard the influences of gravitational fields on the phenomena (e.g. of light)".

People tend to see the word velocity in the translations without seeing the context and without noticing that he’s repeatedly referring to “the principle”. They just don’t see the significance of “laid in the dust”, and they skip over his reference to "one of the two fundamental assumptions". They just don’t and won’t see that he's talking about the SR postulate, which is the constant speed of light. Some will even huff and puff and cry “out of context” and “cherry picking” to dismiss what Einstein actually said. They refuse to accept that Einstein didn't speak English in 1916, and that what he actually said was die Ausbreitungsgeschwindigkeit des Lichtes mit dem Orte variiert. I’ve got the original German version, and I got a German friend and an Austrian friend to translate it for me. It translates into the speed of light varies with the locality. The word “velocity” in the 1920 Methuen translation was the common usage, as in “high velocity bullet”, not the vector quantity that combines speed and direction. He was saying the speed varies with position, hence the reference to the postulate, and hence it causes curvilinear motion. It causes the light to follow a curved path. like a car veers when the near-side wheels encounter mud at the side of the road.


Lets drop the nonsense and observe the premise of the OP, which is that c is constant only in reference to gravitational potential.

thus the actual constant is the relation between e, c and m.
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Re: How gravity works

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:49 am

.
Literally how gravitation works:
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25251
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

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