After reading the synopsis of the upcoming movie, Godsend, with Robert DeNiro, I am very curious about what people think of cloning. In the film a couple loses their 8 yr old son and want him to be cloned. This is simply a movie, but cloning is a reality. Is cloning moral/ethical? What are your thoughts/beliefs on this topic?
Absolutely.
I support eugenics completely. Our achievements in genetics might possibly be the most important medical and technological advance the human race has ever made.
And again, we see the most resistance coming from the religious institutions. “Don’t tamper with nature,” “don’t play at being God,” “it is immoral,” blah blah. I am sick of it, really.
I’m going to be honest and blunt. I believe that people are not equal. No, forget about our existential value. I’m not talking about that because obviously we’re all dead in less than eighty years, and death levels everyone. What I am talking about is intelligence, capacity, and physical ability while alive. The human being is an animal like any other. It, as an organism, possesses characteristics and attributes that can be specialized, honed, if you will, by affecting it’s response and environment. Likewise, as any other organism, it is prone to genetic defect and degeneration. Therefore, as intelligent beings we should make all efforts to control those circumstances to ensure that we at least have the possibility, if not already making the effort, to eliminate the useless and destructive attributes in human nature.
I also believe that there should be a set of standards that any mother and father must meet before they reproduce. I speak from experience because I am currently suffering from a minor but rare kidney disease(sponge kidney) that I aquired through autosomal dominant inheritance. Because of this, I will never have children. I will not willingly take such risks and subject my offspring to that possibility. If my parents knew this as well, then I wouldn’t be sitting here today with this disease, its inconvenience or its pain.
The metaphysical argument: you cannot create a “personality.” You can only create a genetic duplicate of an organism. What creates its “personality” is the environment and its interaction with it. “Personality” and sense of “self” is an internal and solipsistic(i know trix, you don’t want to hear it) event. That is, a cloned de’trop’s sense of “me” will never be the equivalent to my sense of “me,” even if exposed to the exact details of the environment that I experienced, presumably creating the same personality, but impossible because each de’trop is existing simultaneously, and both can’t be the same “me” in presence to one another. All I would have to do is meet this cloned de’trop to put this point in effect.
Also, response to environment isn’t completely determined. There are only probablistic regularities in human behavior. It is not possible to predict how a particular individual will respond to a given set of circumstances, it is possible, however, to predict percentages of specified groups responding to circumstances.
After the facts, it becomes obvious that there is no danger of “stealing souls” or synthesizing human personality, or tampering with nature, or acting immorally when cloning.
All this religious hooplah is laughable, unfortunately for the human race, it just might be its oblivion.
Look at the average “person.” No, seriously, talk a walk downtown and just watch people. Examine them. Their physical fitness, how they dress, how they talk, what they know, the music they like, their mannerisms.
Do you see the epitome of the 21st century, do you see the future?
Pathetic and bleak, isn’t it?
Ya’ know, its in moments like these that I see how perfectly wrong the majority of the world is, and I gasp at this fact because I almost find myself believing in a God, since the world is SO PERFECTLY WRONG, it is as if it couldn’t have got that way without divine precision and folly.
I agree with Frank Zappa. The most abundant element in the universe is not hydrogen, it is stupidity, and it has a longer shelf-life.
That’s “take” a walk downtown.
Sorry. I wasn’t logged in so I can’t edit the post.
i think cloning devalues both the original and the clone, after all the possible ways a person has been degraded, IQ,looks,fitness etc, there is one thing that cannot be questioned, individuality,my father is an identical twin so i understand that this could pose a similar dilemma , however, this was not a deliberate act to create a person in anothers shadow.
i know how much i value my own personal identity and how much it would tear me apart and my self worth if i found out i was merely created to be a reflection of somebody else
You are stuck in the old argument, guest2.
I am telling you that it is impossible to create another “you.” Forget about the intentions of the cloning, you can believe all day that this is identity theft, it doesn’t matter. The reasons why you would clone yourself would be to duplicate your genetic code, to create a speciman with your superior attributes. Not because we like guest2’s “attitude” and want more of them, as I said this is impossible, but because we have the ability to create a physical host that is strong and healthy, with the capacity for a productive “attitude.”
To make a human ideal we must start with microcosmic factors, and then work our way into larger scale organizations like sociological and psychological profiling. Human civilization starts at the genome, once we get that right, we then focus on the assets of civilization and mass community.
We create the subject, then we modify its environment.
The world has done it backwards so far. Humanity accepts anyone as “they are,” as “God created them,” as they are “supposed to be,” as their own unique and special “self,” and then attempts to change the environment to accomodate that pathetic subject.
I don’t like fat people. Instead of altering one’s attitude and self-esteem, the world allows the fat man to over indulge in eating for whatever reason, and then creates solutions to the problem which didn’t have to be in the first place. Diet pills, drugs that tweak your metabolism so you can eat at McDonalds everyday.
Hey, I got an excellent idea! How about we kill all the fat people, start from scratch, and fix the problems that cause emotional breakdowns that result in eating disorders?
The world says to itself “I suck, so I’ll allow everyone to develop an eating disorder to compensate for it, and then I’ll create a solution to deal with the problem I have created.”
[insert Richard Simmons in his little blue shorts]
Practicio-inert(thank you, Sartre).
I guess in the movie (Godsend) the couple does end up having their dead son cloned but he is not the same kid at all. He is physically identical but that is the only thing that is the same. That is what I would figure would happen if a human was cloned.
Excellent couple of posts de’trop.
I do think that cloning is a double edged sword though, it depends what we class as desirable or undesirable characterisitics, after all variety is the spice of life.
I think there is an intrinsic resistance to cloning that has embedded itself in our collective consciousness for another reason as well as the personal identity worries and the religious arguments. We have beentold to view people who are deaf, blind, disabled, autistic, etc. etc. as normal people and that to discriminate against them is bad.
This has led to the attitude that it’s bad to try and cure the diseases, that these people wouldn’t prefer to have a fully functioning body/mind, which is a ludicrous position to adopt as there are no (sane) able bodied/minded people who would inflict any of the above on themselves willingly.
As for the comments of killing all fat people, I believe that some have said that according to Utilitarianism it is possible to justify killing a huge proportion of the worlds population because of the misery that over-crowding creates now and the problems it will create later.
Not that I wish to inspire any budding Hitlers!
You are right, Matt, it is a touchy issue.
I don’t want to come off like some Nazi. I would never demand that Eugenics become a law, but I would promote it as an option that should be considered and chosen voluntarily by competent and responsible human individuals when things like reproduction are in question.
Its not that I think overweight, blind, and retarded people shouldn’t have a right to reproduce, as obviously there are no inherent human “rights,” but that they shouldn’t want to by virtue and for principle.
As free individuals we should feel obligated to providing and performing for the entire human race without feeling like we are sacrificing our individuality. This can be done. Once one knows the limits of human existence, one automatically conforms to that limit and does not expect the impossible. For example: the belief that there is an after-life relieves the importance of this one. The world has come to believe that our physical earthly existence is just a phase in a larger order, so the standards of human “being,” that is, physical, become less and less critical as we evolve. As animals, we are the weakest in nature when it comes to maintaining our health; we deliberately do things that destroy our health, improper diet, drugs, lack of exercise, etc. This is all because we, as animals, have adopted an arrogance that has thrown our equalibrium with the environment out of balance. A great psychological sickness has plagued mankind for generations.
We exploit this planet, we are lazy, we are out of shape, and we are generally incompetent. If things keep going like they have been, I predict that the planet will run out of gas in less than 500 years.
sputsputsput…clunk
But fuck it, right? As long as I get to eat cheesburgers and go to church to allieviate my disappointment about the fact that I can’t make it to the mailbox without loosing my breath, and the fact that my children have a 75% chance of getting cancer, I won’t feel completely responsible because I’ll have good faith that its all in God’s hands.
LOL Great posts de’trop!
I agree, cloning is ethical. As for eugenics, lets be candid
Humans are not generally equipped with the foresight to say “Gee maybe I shouldn’t fuck without a condom just cause Im too lazy to take a few seconds…”
Im not a fan of human survivability. I love my life, and individuals as I meet them, but I see it as no great crime if we cease to exist as a race.
Think of our survival as a race? Sometimes I can barely think beyond this week. ANd Ive screwed up more relationships with potential than I can count. (Ive gotten better -_-) So you can all forgive me if I forget to look at humanity in the macro sometimes.
Wow! These posts are very interesting. Lots of viewpoints regarding cloning. I think it should be interesting to see how the movie portrays cloning and the consequences and outcome of it. I can understand that a parent would want their dead child back and cloning seems to be the only way to do this, but what this couple does not seem to consider is that the son they clone will be a completely different person in every way (except physically of course).
Yes, interesting thread indeed. I’d also like to hear peoples’ opinions on the possibility of creating ‘genetic classes’ based on family’s ability to pay for the use of expensive GM and cloning technology. I instinctively see that scenario as undesirable, but admit I lack the knowledge to back that position up.
Cloning and genetic engineering is the stupidest idea ever fathomed. I recently watched a video in school, and the scientists claimed they could create the “perfect” baby, based on whatever the parent wanted the child to be. I heard a parent saying they wanted their child to be smart, athletic, good looking, have just about every attribute someone can have- except for free will, of course. Sure, Cloning is ethical, but it is also IGNORANT. Parents that would rather have what they think is a perfect child and do not let their child be born regularly are so very ignorant because they are basically saying ‘If you did this, son, I would be more happy.’ That is a load of crap, but of course, ignorance is bliss, so why should it matter? 
What does free will have to do with anything? I bet you’re circumcised, but even if you’re not, do you damn all those parents who cut their kid’s foreskin off for enslaving their child?
Why?
Why?
Are you happy?
No, actually I am appauled that you didn’t understand what I was trying to say. I am saying that if a parent wants to make the baby the way they feel is best, than that parent is a very selfish individual. Why? Because they would rather have a child that does somthing they want them to do, rather than what nature has given them. The parent is saying that they would be more happy if their child did this, rather than what the child would do naturally. A parent that isn’t happy with what their child does should not be a parent at all.
Atheism_Saves wrote:
Is the parent that gives their child the vaccine for polio a selfish individual? After all, it is Nature’s will that wants the child to live a deformed life. Perhaps Nature wishes to give a child a cleft lip, is it an unselfish parent that does not wish to have this remedied?
People go against nature all of the time; so much in fact that we have even assigned it a name- progress.
I would like to also mention that I am completely in favor of your right to choose having a “natural” birth (whatever that means). If you want to have retarded, disease ridden babies, that’s your choice. One thing that I can assure you, is that your children would have a lot more questions concerning your decisions than mine would.
Why are you appauled? It’s not like you actually SAID anything. You came here, spoke much filth about what your opinion is with absolutely no support for those claims. Asking “Why?” is probably the best thing I could think to say to you without reaching into my rather large repitoir of insults and ad hominim attacks.
You haven’t thought this through enough. Think about why you believe what you believe, then use rationality to prove it. You already recognize your emotional ties to the issue, now try and destroy them.
And I’m sorry you’re not happy. Ignorance may be bliss, but knowledge is power. Take solace in your strength of knowledge and give little thought to the bliss you had as a younger child.
He does have a point though, though he may not realise it, think of it another way, say a parent gave their child the ultimate tools to become an international rock star, the looks, the vocals, the memory, co-ordination. In essence that parent has chosen the future for their child.
Ok that happens now with what kind of education we are subjected to, etc. but in the end when we become vaguely independant at the ages of 14-16 (or earlier/later depending on your culture) we can discard the shakles and move on. A child which has been engineered to be one thing will have almost have a disadvantage is choosing any other route.
It’s not much of an argument, but it is something worth considering, in the end any child is going to be their own person within ten years and then have to live with the choices their parents have made for them. While a certain degree of choice is already given, it is worrying that these freakish parents could be given even more control over their child’s life.
If someone wants to be ugly, they are.
Simple as that.
Potentiality is not the same thing as actuality.
Giving potential to someone is a good thing, but it doesn’t mean they’ll achieve this potential, no?
Are you denying this child the ability to be disfigured in a car wreck, to spray themselves with acid, or to be brain damaged by “walking” off of a trolley…while it’s still moving full speed (like my roomate did 2 years ago… that moron).
When you speak about this, you’re talking about the morality of fucking with DNA, not the child itself. The child is a red herring. It’s about the bigger picture. People are worried of some sort of Huxlian model coming true. I say, bring it.
Remember how I mentioned the movie Godsend at the beginning of this thread? Well, you won’t believe this site I found:
godsendinstitute.org/
I think the movie is based on it. I called the number but got their voicemail. It’s pretty crazy stuff. What do you think?
Im not religious at all but I dont think we should tamper with nature. We dont need to anyway. We dont know what the consiquences are, first its cloneing then its gentical engineering and then were creating super humans that are potential masterminds, dictators, murderes they would have the strength and intelligence to out wit us. The clones that are made would feel strange and confused they wouldnt lead a normal life.