Big Bang Vs. The Eternal Universe.

I just want to hear everyone’s take on this, it’s interesting that ‘smart’ people like Stephen Hawking can be aclaimed by so many people and yet they can’t come up with anything better than an explosion starting everything.

Even if the big bang did occur, what caused it? What was there before it?
A big supporting ‘fact’ for the big bang is that we can’t find anything after some quasar about 15billion light years away and that must mean there’s an edge… SURE!!!

The concept of galaxies is not new to us, what if our perceived ‘universe’ is just a massive galaxy in a never ending universe, with no starting point in length, bredth, height or time. As we know, the distance between galaxies is far greater than the galaxies themselves and therefore making it quite a challenge to find the nearest.

Anyway, I’ll stop and wait for some replies.

Confuzus stated:

Most astro-physicists believe that the universe expands and then collapses in on itself, only to do the same thing again in a never ending cycle. That which initiates the expansion after the collapse is a big bang explosion of matter and anti-matter. You fact about not being able to find anything further than 15 billion light years away is correct, but you draw the wrong conclusion from it. Astro-physicists are aware that there most certainly is something further than these quasars, the only problem is that the light has not had time to reach us yet. Moreover, many distant objects do reflect light to us, but our eyes and sophisticated instruments cannot detect it. Those quasars are only found by the best space viewing technology on the planet. The biggest ‘fact’ supporting the big bang theory isn’t that, but what is called the Cosmic Microwave Background which was predicted by theoreticians to be a constant temperature within all of space, that temperature being 7 kelvin. Some guys found this theorized temperature completely by accident. We now know exactly how the universe formed from the first second, or some millionth of the first second to present day. This knowing is a general knowing, not an all encompassing one to explain all details of the universe. The theory of these astro-physicists is difficult to explain. So, if you are interested then ask me, and I will post it. Otherwise, I really don’t want to waste my time of searching in books to make sure I explain the theory right, then having to write it and post it, and then wasting your time reading it, if you are not interested. Let me know…

What’s your take?

there are in my considerations, as many many theories, hypothesies, philosophies, probalities of the answer to this question, as there are words

Don’t mean to be rude when I say; so what?

The last I heard, even if one includes all the theoretical “dark matter,” there still doesn’t seem to be enough matter in the universe to overcome an unlimited expansion. In other words, at the moment it looks as if the universe is open, and we’re not headed for a “big crunch.” Of course, there will always be (and should always be) challanges to any generally accepted position. An example of such a challange was described in the February 2002 issue of Scientific American magazine. The article is titled, “A Recycled Universe; Crashing branes and cosmic acceleration may power an infinite cycle in which our universe is but a phase.” You can read the article at;

sciam.com/article.cfm?articl … 9EC588EEDF

BTW, there’s an interesting article in the current issue of American Scientist magazine titled, “Observing the Beginning of Time.” The article discusses new maps of the cosmic background radiation that Magius spoke of. Consider this paragraph from the article:

“Consider this seeming paradox: The biggest and smallest things in nature are the same things. At first this statement seems to make no sense, yet it is not an obscure metaphor or Zen koan. It is a profound truth about the universe, exactly and literally…When we look at the largest structures in the cosmic background radiation - the largest and most distant things we can possibly see, stretching across the whole sky at the edge of the universe - we are looking at patterns that were imprinted in the first moments of creation, when these patterns were single quanta - the smallest amount of something (anything), according to quantum theory - far smaller than the smallest subatomic structure ever seen in the laboratory. Even though we are used to the idea that everything in the universe is connected with everything else, such a literal connection between the quantum world and the cosmic world is surprising. That is because most of the time when we look at large things - anything you can see without a microscope - they look continuous. There is no obvious sign that they are made of discrete microscopic elementary particles. So it is remarkable that when we look at the very largest things, we start seeing the quanta again. The universe expanding all around us acts like a giant microscope.”

What a fascinating idea; that the biggest and smallest things in the world are the same things! You can read the entire article at:

americanscientist.org/articl … Hogan.html

Michael

Thanks Magius for enlightening me on a few points. I felt I was reasonably versed in those theories but you either have an awesome imagination or quite a lot of knowlegde on the matter (I’ll take the latter). The point about ‘dark matter’ is interesting though, because if this doesn’t make up for the missing mass in the universe, then where is it?

Confuzus, it may be worth linking and reading through Polemarchus’s sources he has provided to find the hypothesised answer. I like to think I have both an imagination and a keen mind, the reason I know so much about astronomy is because I really like it, I also finished an astronomy course a few months back in University - so the subject matter is still fresh in my mind.

Good Luck in your researching…

Against my better judgements I’ll whip out two of the cosmological arguements which really do more of proving the big bang rather than God.

Cause effect: There must be a first cause (big bang) without which there could be no second causes. There cannot be an unending line of second causes forever. A second cause presupposes a first.

Kaalam Arguement: Time is linear. All time is a positive relation since it is impossible for time to move backwards*. If time is linear and a positive relation then it must have a starting moment to give rise to all other moments.

The question of time travel??? This is the biggest proof that time is linear and a positive relation. If time were not linear, or if it could move backwards, what about time travel? Why isn’t it be possible? One might say: “Well, we haven’t the technology.” Poppycock!* The biggest proof that time travel isn’t possible is that there haven’t ever been any visitors from the future.

**Yeah… “poppycock” is just such a funny word :laughing: .

Time becomes a very fuzzy concept when you get closer and closer to the big bang, I’m pretty certain most scientists throw out any concept of linearity at close to big bang events, same with cause and effect, that pretty much gets thrown out as well. Interestingly enough some scientists postulate that if there were a big bang cause and effect would be reversed.

If you look around in the right places Confuzus you’ll find some references to Einstein’s big mistake which has recently been revived to show that it may be possible to argue that nothing has enough energy to spontaneously create a big bang (although spontaneous and create presuppose linearity and cause/effect, there’s as close as we can get to describe the process to ourselves).

Polemarchus stated:

Yes this is quite correct. The predominant theorists are trying the explain the missing quotient in their numerical theories by stating that the missing matter is of a source that is nearly weightless and extremely hard to detect. That being nutrinos. They devised complex machinery and underground plants to detect these nutrinos and they have succeeded in detecting them, but not to the amounts they expected to detect. So as Polemarchus stated, currently it appears that we have an open universe that will just continue to expand forever (blah! Sorry, I hate using such general terms as ‘forever’). I don’t personally believe in them. But I also can’t see according to anything other than what I read to suggest any other kind of explanation for the universe. Shutting up now.

What’s your take?

Magius- I’m planning on taking an astronomy course when I graduate this year - any words of wisdom?

Silver stated:

Yes!! I’m so glad you asked. :slight_smile: The course I took was taught by a very good teacher, actually he is quite famous in the field of astronomy. His name is Paul Delaney and his picture can be found in many astronomy magazines. The reason I mention this isn’t to boast about the greatness of a prof that “I” had, but to illustrate the point that when you pick courses, it is a valuable practice to always check which professor is teaching it. If the same course is taught by two or more professors, its worth the time to ‘ask around’ about the enthusiasm, technique, and personality of the professor teaching the course. To me, teachers are a vital part of the course, depending on the course the professor may be the most important element to your education.

Furthermore, personally I think you should enter the course with a wonder, curiosity, and a love for learning. KEEP YOUR MIND OPEN! In all things you learn not just in astronomy but every course. Seriously consider those things that appear at first glance to be completely bogus. Having said that, make sure you also fairly criticise the claims which appear at first site to be intuitively correct. For example, I found a lot of truth in Mayan mythology of the stars and their design in astrological temples. While, I found much error and ambiguity in equations of physics that attempt to decipher the universe and explain its occurences. I expressed a more appropriate solution to one equation of Hubbles to my professor, who looked bewildered at my idea, but in the end said “You know that is a very interesting idea. It makes a lot of sense but I haven’t come across any such idea in my studies. It may be worth it for you to research the matter further. I would also like to meet with you at a later time to discuss in more detail the hypothesis you are proposing…” As you can imagine I was all smiles from ear to ear. I never ended up meeting with the professor because I like him, was very busy with other courses, my girlfriend at the time, friends, doing my martial arts etc etc.

Lastly, in my opinion this is the hardest for me to do as the above example probably elucidated quite well. Always follow up on ideas that spring to mind for only a few seconds. If you follow up on them the richness of your mind will soar beyond the highest mountain peaks. If not, you may become constrained by the knowledge you learned and never be able to go anywhere further with it. Many grip the knowledge they learn as ABSOLUTE TRUTHS, which is the worst thing anyone can do. The problem with following up on your ideas, especially if you are anything like me, is that the time it takes you to read a chapter (lets say 40 pages long - the big pages found in science textbooks) without following up on your ideas will take between 1.5 hours to 2.5 hours. But if you follow up on your ideas, plural!, you may find yourself spending 6-8hours reading one chapter. One of my ideas led me to emailing a well known physicist about Nuclear Magnetic Resonance, he actually pointed me to a beginners guide to NMR which he has online…let me tell you, I have never seen anything as confusing in my life.

Finally, enjoy the course work as well as the professor, students, resources, school life, and life in general. This is advice I myself should take, but am unable to. Nevertheless, I like to hear it - and it makes me make small changes each day in my life. So it still helps. Hopefully, I have helped you.

Oh, before I forget. I have been meaning to ask you this for a while. What is your age and round-about location within Mississauga? The reason I ask is because I myself live in Mississauga, Ontario. I am big on coincidences…

What’s your take?

Magius: Thanks for the advice; I appreciate you taking the time to answer so thoroughly.
I understand exactly what you meant about having the right teacher, it could mean the difference between simply learning the course and loving it. Ill be sure to… ‘check out’ … certain professors before signing up.

ive notest you seem to have an excellent understanding of the principles and details of astronomy ( and of must subjects for that matter) , not that I’m claiming to know anything myself, but its very impressive. You mentioned contacting a physicist in the field of Nuclear Mag. Resonance, I was wounding if his name is Joseph Hornak? The reason I ask is because I’ve come across some of his work but haven’t had the time to sit down and go through it. but by skimming through it I can imagine how complicated it must be.

…thanks again …

By the way; 17 and within a 5min driving radius of Eglinton and Creditview. ( i have a feeling im just about the youngest person here… :unamused: )

Silver,
yes, it’s Joseph Hornak. His name brings a strange coincidence to my life, cause I use to date a girl named Johanna Horniak (yes with an ‘i’ - saying her last name sounds funny I know) and I found out, later, that she is most likely from Slovakia which is also my place of birth. I always hope that she never reads of my mentioning her, since we only dated for two weeks - she might get the wrong impression if she found out I am mentioning her after all this time. Silver, you must have found his web site by typing NMR or Nuclear Magnetic Resonance into google. I highly suggest looking into his guide, it’s really interesting stuff - but very confusing for me. I have a weak physics background. I thank you for your kind words and good luck with your course. I don’t think you are the youngest person on this board, maybe some people reading this post who are younger than you may want to post their age to prove me right. Then again, maybe I’m wrong. I’m 23 years old and think it is great that someone who is 17 finds interest in the topics discussed on this board. I have read most if of your emails and can say to a good deal of certainty that you have a good head on your shoulders. I live about two minutes away from Derry and Winston Churchill or, to use another marker, I also live about two minutes away from Meadowvale Town Center.

What’s your take?

Actually I went on askjeeves. com but a search engines’ a search engine… : )

I was wondering why you and Johanna broke up, I can see how you’re ’ big on coincidences’ as you put it and I admit, these were some pretty interesting coincidences (I realize I have no right to ask and you have no obligation to answer so if u don’t ill understand.)
I am somewhat familiar with the Meadowvale Mall area; I’ve been to the shopping mall on a few occasions.
Anyway, thanks for the vote of confidence but I assure you, I may have a good and sturdy head…but that’s only because it’s very small. “Sarcasm” aside ( actually I’m not sure if I was being sarcastic or not ), I was wounding if you can tell me anything about University life, anything specific to look for or ask; I’m going to be applying sometime in the next 2 months, I’m thinking along the lines of U of T, York maybe Western. Since you are university ( still, I assume) is there anything you would have wanted someone to tell you before you began?

Silver stated:

The coincidences came a long time after we had dated. Years actually. Since I mentioned her name, I don’t think it fair to mention our break-up, I find it would be slanderous and you would only have one side. She is not here to defend herself. If you are still interested I can Private Message you with an answer, but I won’t post it in this thread. By the way, I don’t mind you asking.

Silver stated:

Some good questions, especially the last sentence. Difficult to answer, but here goes…I personally have attended Humber College (1 year) for Business Management. I realized business was something you were either born with the savvy or not. So I left in search of another major. I attended University of Toronto, I did a Canadian History course and found the university to be very beaurocratic. Many people I know have echoed the same experience. But there are those that say U of T is great and their teachers are great. So draw your own conclusions. For me, teachers gave out their office numbers and university emails ONLY. These they answer once or twice a week. Professors rarely spent any time answering questions in class. Surprise, surprise, I didn’t like U of T. I must say that I loved the architecture. But after three months the brick, moss, and medeival look wore off of me and I found the place to be dark and depressing. I have been attending York University for the last two years as a Philosophy Major and have never looked back. I love it. The school is great, the professors are great, the students aren’t that bad as well. But the staff that serves food in the mall (York Lanes) or the cafeteria are the greatest. The worst are the Library employees, I heard they are prone to biting heads off. I personally found them to be pretentious, rude, disrespectful, unsympathetic, and as paradoxical as it may sound, I found them to be very loud. Remember that these librarians are adults, not students. I knew from the first day of stepping on York grounds as a student that this university was meant for me.

Western I haven’t heard much about, I know it is best in something, I can’t seem to remember but I think it’s in the sciences - biology or chemistry or something. But don’t quote me on that. If you come to York, I could show you around and introduce you to my friends. Don’t worry, we are not agists. By which I mean that you won’t be discriminated against because of your age.

The only thing to watch out for in York, is that there are a lot of religious people - coincidentally the most fights occur between the middle east religious believers. The bars are crazy at night, lots of drinking and partying, and unfortunately fighting. This is all hearsay, mind you, I haven’t seen a single fight in my two years at York. But, I only attend bars,restaurants, and the mall during the day to either study, converse with a friend, or to eat.

The best thing about York is it’s ground. York is very beautiful in the summer. And winter if you like the look of trees weighed down by snow. Many trees, plants, flowers, and grass. It’s an environment friendly university. Furthermore, York is a complete square of land comprising of york private property, whereas, U of T is a strange mixture of city and university property. Your not sure which establishment is part of the university and which is the private sector. For instance, to get to U of T library you have to cross a main road and walk a good distance to a big building that isn’t even labelled from the outside. Personally, I thought the whole U of T was very disorganized. But there is a lot of disorganization at York as well, paperwork, OSAP, and other administrative things that consist of the same kind of workers as the libraries tend to slack off and give attitude to all students. U of T administration wasn’t ever rude to me, but they were disorganized.

Lastly, the atmostphere in U of T is much like highschool. Everyone is with their own group, no group lets anyone in, and there are a lot of group or gang fights. Looks are passed, pranks are premeditated, etc.

One thing I would want to know before attending a university is how the students are…well, in York the atmosphere is very friendly. People will say hi and strike up conversations with you at will. Making friends is no difficult task at York. There are times where you yourself have to start the talking ofcourse, but fear not of getting put down.

Food is great at York, as long as you know where to buy it. Falaful Hut is the best, always get the days special, it makes sure you don’t get sick of the same thing with a different special for each day. Sakura, a chinese restaurant is amazing, a little pricey but worth every penny. And as unbelievable as it is, KFC in the food court makes a killer Classic Combo $3.93!! as well as the twin taco deal $3.63. Don’t be fooled by the menu, the classic combo is shown to cost $4.29 plus tax. But when you order it, it comes to $3.93 with tax! It’s a little bonus that they do for students but are not allowed to advertise (or so I deduce).

Hope I helped…

oops, you’re right, sorry about my insensitivity. Its just you mentioned earlier:

i guess i made a premature connection.

anyways, yes, you have definitely helped.

I was afraid you’d say something like that. I know you were only talking about U of T, but that has been one of my concerns about university. All in all from what you’ve said, I think York sounds great. I know a hand full of people who go there now including my physics teacher. ( I find this very ironic and funny) Nonetheless, if I do go to York, I just might take you up on your invitation to show me around.

Besides, I’ve had my doubts about U of T before; for example, a speaker came to my school in November and when I expressed some of my concerns regarding certain things such as availability of professors , he gave me desperately irrelevant answers.

Thanks for all your advise about everything, especially :

I’ll be sure to remember that one!

lastly, ( because you said:

so… Enjoy Life! Take delight in everything you do, and if you cannot, don’t do it. Im so glad you’re enjoying your philosophy major. Im sure you’re doing rather well in it.

Again, thank you, and ill stop pestering you now…

Silver,
There are two more things I forgot to mention, one is that York Professors give out their own email addresses and sometimes even home phone numbers. In my experience. Secondly, York has some of the most beautiful people I have ever seen. Just so everyone is straight on this, I am straight; not that there is anything wrong with being gay or bi. What I’m trying to get away from is premature generalizations about what is behind my words, not expecting you (silver) to do so but maybe some new comers (ie. Mr. Lee). Anyway, any straight guy can still tell if another male is good looking or not and same for women. People in York are well dressed, groomed, yet they have an essence of themselves as well as an aura of comfort. This means that they aren’t prepped little Natzi’s in uniforms, but are people with class and self-awareness.

Silver stated:

:blush: Thank you for the advice, you couldn’t be more correct. I hesitate when I say that it is easier said than done, but I will attempt to make use of your advice. I want to thank you for your kind sentiment, it’s difficult to find posts expressing kindness toward each other…this is the reason for my thread Optimism, Humour…, I also thank you for your optimism, which is quite coincidental. I have never been doing so well in school before in my life. Somehow I still find time to work-out in my basement, go for runs, roller-blade, talk to friends on the phone, and even go out on the weekends. It’s the life I’ve always dreamed of, but I can’t find happiness… :wink: yes I know, I should take delight in everything I do and what I don’t take delight in doing, I shouldn’t do.

Again, thank you for the advice and the kind words. Lastly, I don’t feel like you are pestering me. Rather it has been a pleasure posting with you.

Take care,

You too, but I hope this isn’t farewell…

Hey, I forgot to mention one more reason you should take extra delight in life this week… The new Star Trek movie coming out this Friday :wink: I’m looking forward to it; I wonder if you are a fan as well?
( besides, we’re not going completely off the thread topic, now that star trek has been mentioned this could all be related to science :unamused: )

Silver,
no it’s not farewell. Unfortunately Star Trek just doesn’t do it for me. It use to, but I was never a Trekky. I use to watch Next Generation off an on, and even Voyageur once in a while. Deep space nine held my attention for about two months, but then it just died for me. I think they over did it with the space shows. I always hated the original Star Trek show with Captain Kirk, but somehow I loved the movies, all of them. But, speaking of movies; my favorite movie of all time is ‘The Matrix’ and the sequel is coming out in May. I must say, that the commercial for NEMESIS is quite appealing (eye candy), but carries with it yet another strange coincidence (yes, they pile on and on). I once saw a commercial over at a buddies house about this movie called Nemesis. It’s this movie about Cyborg’s, anyway, the commercial was amazing. It is the first and only time I have ever gone out and rented a movie based solely on a commercial. So we rented this movie, my buddy and I, and it was one of the most boring movie’s I’ve seen in my life (it ties ‘Three Kings’ - which is the only movie I actually fell asleep in the theatre watching).

Maybe you can let me know what you thought of it, give me the break down with an objective opinion and if I am convinced, maybe I’ll go see it. It’s too bad the drive-in is closed on Dundas and Tenth Line, I went all summer - it’s great watching space movies at the drive in cause the sky mixes with the edges of the screen (the stars) and it actually looks like the movie is playing in the sky.

Before I go, curious question (I’m aware that curiousity killed the cat - lucky for me I am not a cat) why the name ‘silver’? I mean why not Bronze, Tin, Copper, or better yet why not Gold? Platinum has a nice ring to it, and Adamantium is my favorite (Wolverine bias - wolverine was my favorite of all x-men as a kid).

What’s your take?