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Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:39 am
by Ecmandu
I don't think it's confusing things too much ...

For example, property taxes are rent, and this is a debt , but additionally, it either does or doesn't cause debt... I would argue that most people are causing debt in this form of rent... Thus, their discretionary income is bubbled or debt ridden, a lie, they are slaves to the debt system.

Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:41 am
by Mr Reasonable
What about the part where he said that because you can choose whether to pay off debt that you have freedom?

Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:45 am
by Ecmandu
Mr Reasonable wrote:What about the part where he said that because you can choose whether to pay off debt that you have freedom?


Debt is endemic to society ... Nobody wants it, and most people never pay it off ... They game the system until they die.

Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:02 am
by Mr Reasonable
And do they get to make choices in that game they play with the system?

Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:12 am
by Ecmandu
Mr Reasonable wrote:And do they get to make choices in that game they play with the system?


You can argue that elites have planned debt ridden "discretion" as something to write off on the expense account.

I'm actually not kidding here, or being fecitious!

Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:49 am
by Mr Reasonable
But you might find it hard to prove.

What's easy to prove is that someone can borrow money at a percentage of interest that it lower than the return they could make investing it, and that then they could pay the debt and still have extra money which they could spend on a variety of things depending on what they choose.

Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:57 am
by Ecmandu
Mr Reasonable wrote:But you might find it hard to prove.

What's easy to prove is that someone can borrow money at a percentage of interest that it lower than the return they could make investing it, and that then they could pay the debt and still have extra money which they could spend on a variety of things depending on what they choose.


I may not seem like it... But I'm a really nefarious fucking dude... I know how to get laid, and how to make money ... If I can figure it out, I guarantee people are using it. I'm anti nefariousness though ... So I'm broke with no women.

Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:15 pm
by Carleas
Ecmandu wrote:Nobody wants [debt]

This is false. People voluntarily take on debt all the time, and voluntarily choose not to pay it off when they could. This is true of rich and poor people, of businesses large and small, and nations at all stages of development.

Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:49 pm
by Ecmandu
Carleas wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Nobody wants [debt]

This is false. People voluntarily take on debt all the time, and voluntarily choose not to pay it off when they could. This is true of rich and poor people, of businesses large and small, and nations at all stages of development.


There's a difference between informed consent and desired informed consent...

Do you want me to punch you in the face or kick you in the shin?

I would argue that people either want debt because they think they can get away with it, or maybe they're just lonely... Aside from that, I don't think debt is a desired informed consent issue.

Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:14 pm
by Mr Reasonable
Ecmandu wrote:
Mr Reasonable wrote:But you might find it hard to prove.

What's easy to prove is that someone can borrow money at a percentage of interest that it lower than the return they could make investing it, and that then they could pay the debt and still have extra money which they could spend on a variety of things depending on what they choose.


I may not seem like it... But I'm a really nefarious fucking dude... I know how to get laid, and how to make money ... If I can figure it out, I guarantee people are using it. I'm anti nefariousness though ... So I'm broke with no women.



I don't think who you are or what you personally do pertains to the debate at hand.

Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:10 pm
by Carleas
Ecmandu wrote:I would argue that people either want debt because they think they can get away with it[...]

People don't generally do things just because they can. The fact that people can often "get away with" carrying debt, i.e. carry debt to their benefit, is only part of the equation. They can get away with it, and it actually benefits them.

Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:18 pm
by Ecmandu
Mr Reasonable wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:
Mr Reasonable wrote:But you might find it hard to prove.

What's easy to prove is that someone can borrow money at a percentage of interest that it lower than the return they could make investing it, and that then they could pay the debt and still have extra money which they could spend on a variety of things depending on what they choose.


I may not seem like it... But I'm a really nefarious fucking dude... I know how to get laid, and how to make money ... If I can figure it out, I guarantee people are using it. I'm anti nefariousness though ... So I'm broke with no women.



I don't think who you are or what you personally do pertains to the debate at hand.


Well... You said it was hard to prove, and I stated that of I can figure it out, I'm sure people are doing it! That was my whole point.. Perhaps over the top though ...

Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:03 am
by James S Saint
Carleas wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Nobody wants [debt]

This is false. People voluntarily take on debt all the time, and voluntarily choose not to pay it off when they could. This is true of rich and poor people, of businesses large and small, and nations at all stages of development.

That doesn't mean that they "want debt". That merely means that they want something else enough to tolerate debt.

Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:30 am
by WendyDarling
Debt has never benefited me. It's a burden of a perceived failure, no matter how it arises.

Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:22 pm
by Carleas
James S Saint wrote:That doesn't mean that they "want debt". That merely means that they want something else enough to tolerate debt.

This is a semantic distinction. The "something else" they want is the cash, which is just the obverse of the debt.

In any case, people freely choose to take on debt because they expect it to benefit them and they are frequently right. To my mind, it is fair to say that they wanted that, and even more clearly that they wanted it more than the other available options. If you prefer to use some circumscribed, technical, obtuse or otherwise idiosyncratic definition of 'to want', by all means.

Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:36 pm
by Ecmandu
Damn you guys, I'm trying to leave...

I made a really weird post in this thread ...

BUT!! The point is that people would rather be given something without debt... James is correct ...

Informed consent can be...

Here's your choice ... I punch you in the shoulder or kick you in the nuts!

James is articulating this aspect of want and consent!


The issue at hand is that getting away with debt is being given something... But it was being given something with debt, people prefer to be given something without debt.

Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:25 pm
by Carleas
You're being a little pedantic here. People say things like, "I want a job that pays well". That's a totally normal, meaningful use of the word 'want' and we all understand what is meant. It does not change anything that the speaker may greatly prefer to be paid well without having a job.

Similarly, people can want to take out a loan to buy a house. Sure, they'd love to just be given a house, but that doesn't mean they don't want to take out the loan, to take on the debt.

But the word 'want' is not the point. The point is that debt can be and frequently is part of a desirable outcome that people choose for themselves without coercion.

Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:29 pm
by Ecmandu
Carleas wrote:You're being a little pedantic here. People say things like, "I want a job that pays well". That's a totally normal, meaningful use of the word 'want' and we all understand what is meant. It does not change anything that the speaker may greatly prefer to be paid well without having a job.

Similarly, people can want to take out a loan to buy a house. Sure, they'd love to just be given a house, but that doesn't mean they don't want to take out the loan, to take on the debt.

But the word 'want' is not the point. The point is that debt can be and frequently is part of a desirable outcome that people choose for themselves without coercion.


There's a big difference between debt and overhead for one...

A person would much rather buy a house than take a loan for two...

Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 6:04 pm
by Meno_
And sometimes debt is not voluntarily assumed, sometimes liens are transferred inter generationally, as when predecessors die with extremely heavily mortgaged expensive property, with bleak outlook of payout in four or five generations or more, as in the cases of downward mobility. The overhead of course decreases dramatically, but there remains the caviat of the transfer of deed to never sell. All the families' sum income is needed for this effort. The family is constrained to get along under horrendous circumstances, yet, there is no elements of whether this is feasible or not, since the mortgages are based on absolute ownership and control. The serfs and the Lords of the Middle Ages knew what this meant, in real terms.
The ruined aristocrats of modern times with titles but no money are also privy to this form of slavery to land and title.

Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:56 am
by Mictlantecuhtli

Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:14 pm
by Ultimate Philosophy 1001
I wouldn't say humans are livestock, but more analogous to bees, insects, or worker drones.

Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:21 pm
by Meno_
Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:I wouldn't say humans are livestock, but more analogous to bees, insects, or worker drones.

Or even bacteria and viruses.

Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:24 pm
by Arminius
Honeybees are very successful and efficient. In one point - offspring / reproduction ( :!: ) - they are even more efficient than humans.

Image Image Image Image

Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:14 pm
by The Eternal Warrior
We are virus, we are better than virus; we are plague and contagion, we are what cures it. We are symbiotic with all life around us and feast off of it as it feasts off of us. Energy vampires to actual feasting of flesh and blood, muscle and sinew. Welcome to the great circle of life.

Re: Humans Are Livestock

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:40 pm
by Carleas
Not sure how I missed your earlier comment, Jerkey, my apologies.

jerkey wrote:And sometimes debt is not voluntarily assumed, sometimes liens are transferred inter generationally, as when predecessors die with extremely heavily mortgaged expensive property, with bleak outlook of payout in four or five generations or more, as in the cases of downward mobility.

In US law, this generally isn't possible. Most debt dies with the debtor, after the estate is exhausted. There are apparently rare cases where children have been found responsible for their parents medical bills, but that's the exception. Even a clause in a will that says the heir can never sell a property will only tend to disinherit that person (and my recollection of property law is fading, but I believe many such clauses don't even do that). So if a property is a net cost, the estate can sell it and wash their hands.

jerkey wrote:The ruined aristocrats of modern times with titles but no money are also privy to this form of slavery to land and title.

I'm not sure how it works in other countries, so it may be that in places where there are hereditary titles and estates, debt can also get passed down. I agree that's a bad system, but I have to think it's the extreme outlier.

Other countries could have broader inheritability of debt generally, and that too is a bad system and may be more common. But given that the US is among the most debt-friendly jurisdictions, with among the most indebted citizens, I think as a proportion of debt this is a small concern. I am open to correction though, if you know otherwise.