Ecmandu's No Fool

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Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby phyllo » Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:32 pm

Decision delivered. =D>
"Who loves not wine, woman and song, remains a fool his whole life long."

"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby Uccisore » Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:35 pm

Ecmandu wrote:
If I argue I'm a fool (and by definition a hopeless troll), I'm not longer a fool, if you argue I'm a fool I am a fool (and by definition a hopeless troll).

If you can outsmart that paradox, you can ban me.


Appropriate that your last post is another non-answer.

Someone who admits they are a fool is still a fool. They're just an honest one.

Goodbye.
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Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby phyllo » Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:40 pm

Are you two going to kiss and make up? :romance-kisscheek:
:romance-grouphug:
"Who loves not wine, woman and song, remains a fool his whole life long."

"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby Uccisore » Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:46 pm

Maybe in a couple weeks, that's how long the ban is. Couldn't bring myself to make it permanent when I didn't knock it out of the park and he gave me a lame half-agreement.
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Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby AutSider » Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:51 pm

Disappointed by Carleas's judgment. I thought it was ruled out at the beginning that the participants have to actually believe what they were saying, and that it was agreed it'd be a debate skill precisely because neither actually believed the positions they were advocating.

The debate pretty much went as expected. Ec made a number of shorter posts and used peculiar arguments (infinite souls) and didn't provide definitions, Uccisore went with the classical American, analytic, systematic approach with elaborated arguments and definitions.

Hopefully Ec won't be perma banned.
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Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby Uccisore » Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:01 pm

Arbiter of Change wrote:Disappointed by Carleas's judgment. I thought it was ruled out at the beginning that the participants have to actually believe what they were saying, and that it was agreed it'd be a debate skill precisely because neither actually believed the positions they were advocating.


If you mean we DIDN'T have to believe what we were saying, then yeah, that was indeed stipulated. But making it transparent that you don't have conviction in your point could still be argued as poor rhetoric.

The debate pretty much went as expected. Ec made a number of shorter posts and used peculiar arguments (infinite souls) and didn't provide definitions, Uccisore went with the classical American, analytic, systematic approach with elaborated arguments and definitions.


It was frustrating when he didn't respond to my points or made his own incoherent. Basically all I got to do was restate my opening post for two days. But I resisted the urge to expand or add new points because every new point is a potential for a new vulnerability.

Hopefully Ec won't be perma banned.


Nah, coupla weeks.
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Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby James S Saint » Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:13 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Have I ever berated a poster as much as uccisore. NO. And the reason is not only because of uccisore's obsession with stalking me and berating me,

I noticed that as well and am a bit still curious about that.

They both proved to be fools.
I would be tempted to restrict them both to the Sandbox for a year.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby AutSider » Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:10 pm

You're even worse, James, so should it be 5 years for you?
I'm no saint either, might as well give me a year as well.
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Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby Uccisore » Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:20 pm

Eh, don't give James a hard time. I disagreed with him about something a month ago, so he has to say stuff like that.
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Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby James S Saint » Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:34 pm

Uccisore wrote:Eh, don't give James a hard time. I disagreed with him about something a month ago, so he has to say stuff like that.

No, you made a fool of yourself a month ago, to my serious surprise. I had no intention to push you to such a breaking point. Your fall was a bit unexpected. Now I have to far more carefully wonder of your motives. And in this regard, what is going on between you and Ecmandu, because his accusation of you stalking or hounding him was right. I saw it even before he did.

I usually back out of debates when I see that I have caused someone to lie or otherwise do himself too much damage (in your case, both lie and become what could justly be dubbed an "outraged fucking retard"). Although it makes me appear as the fool losing a debate, the reality is that it dis-sways further harm to the other person. That has been my, somewhat un-noted, earmark for decades.

Arbiter of Change wrote:You're even worse, James, so should it be 5 years for you?
I'm no saint either, might as well give me a year as well.

Whether I am worse or not, doesn't change the reality.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25765
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby Uccisore » Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:53 pm

James S Saint wrote:No, you made a fool of yourself a month ago, to my serious surprise. I had no intention to push you to such a breaking point. Your fall was a bit unexpected. Now I have to far more carefully wonder of your motives.


Ecmandu, did you hack James' account?
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Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby James S Saint » Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:00 am

Uccisore wrote:
James S Saint wrote:No, you made a fool of yourself a month ago, to my serious surprise. I had no intention to push you to such a breaking point. Your fall was a bit unexpected. Now I have to far more carefully wonder of your motives.


Ecmandu, did you hack James' account?

I was being more nice to you than you realize. I suggest you not push it.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25765
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby Uccisore » Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:13 am

Why, you gonna say more mean words to me on teh interwebs?

The way I remember it, you and I disagreed about the nature of circularity and the role of definitions in a deductive argument. Most normal people wouldn't spin that into a 'fall from grace' narrative with themselves in the role of 'grace'.

Just sayin.
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Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby James S Saint » Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:20 am

Uccisore wrote:Why, you gonna say more mean words to me on teh interwebs?

The way I remember it, you and I disagreed about the nature of circularity and the role of definitions in a deductive argument. Most normal people wouldn't spin that into a 'fall from grace' narrative with themselves in the role of 'grace'.

Just sayin.

You actually say "interwebs"?!?!

I have to admit to a degree of mis-perception and blindness.
I thought more of you.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25765
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby Uccisore » Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:56 am

James S Saint wrote:
Uccisore wrote:Why, you gonna say more mean words to me on teh interwebs?

The way I remember it, you and I disagreed about the nature of circularity and the role of definitions in a deductive argument. Most normal people wouldn't spin that into a 'fall from grace' narrative with themselves in the role of 'grace'.

Just sayin.

You actually say "interwebs"?!?!

I have to admit to a degree of mis-perception and blindness.
I thought more of you.


Um, ok. I was honestly unaware there was any sort of 'concerned with your opinion of me' type of relationship between you and I. You're making things awkward.
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Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby James S Saint » Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:01 am

Uccisore wrote:
James S Saint wrote:
Uccisore wrote:Why, you gonna say more mean words to me on teh interwebs?

The way I remember it, you and I disagreed about the nature of circularity and the role of definitions in a deductive argument. Most normal people wouldn't spin that into a 'fall from grace' narrative with themselves in the role of 'grace'.

Just sayin.

You actually say "interwebs"?!?!

I have to admit to a degree of mis-perception and blindness.
I thought more of you.


Um, ok. I was honestly unaware there was any sort of 'concerned with your opinion of me' type of relationship between you and I. You're making things awkward.

Well perhaps forgive me, but I thought that there already had become an "awkwardness". You telling me to go "FUCK OFF!!! regardless of any thread or subject", kind of relayed the idea that you were ... ummm.. already "awkward".
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25765
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby phoneutria » Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:19 am

Completely reverse effect here. Uccisore keeps growing on me.

Growing on me babeh.
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Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby AutSider » Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:54 pm

Please don't tell me all this fuss is about that thing with apples and quantity some weeks or months ago? I thought it was just another disagreement on forums, certainly not something that would provoke such an 'us and them' attitude, which I thought you despised, James?
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Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby phoneutria » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:57 pm

For someone who despises it, he does seem to seek out quite often.
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Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby Uccisore » Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:13 pm

phoneutria wrote:Completely reverse effect here. Uccisore keeps growing on me.

Growing on me babeh.


I am like a soft, luxurious mold in that respect.

I only half-get the James thing. We disagreed about some academic matter, he got weirdly angry about it, and start following me around for a while. I don't know him well enough to get the context.
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Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby James S Saint » Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:47 pm

Gyahd ... again, just making up lies. I hadn't thought of you as that kind of guy ... until... I saw you get embarrassed.

Uccisore wrote:I only half-get the James thing. We disagreed about some academic matter, he got weirdly angry about it, and start following me around for a while.

Bullshit.

Quite the contrary (of course). It began when Ec stated that he would accept my judgement regarding your argument concerning deductive arguments. Despite your very un-moderator-like constant harassing and ad homs at Ec (calling him a moron on many occasions), I assessed it in your favor and explained why.

Later you made another statement that no sound argument can be made concerning concrete objects. That one I debated with you directly. In that short debate I showed that your assertion was necessarily incorrect at which point, you apparently got embarrassed enough to start making the very same kind of moron statements that you had accused of Ec and when that wasn't enough, you just started flat out lying. I pointed out your lie and explained why it was a lie (you already knew it to be a lie). And at that point, you went ape-shit with this;

The only sign of anger at all came strictly from you;
Uccisore wrote:2.) In the past few replies, you've for some reason called me a liar, a moron, accused me of playing games, and so on. I don't recall having debated you before, but apparently you're a miserable piece of shit who can't discuss even highly technical matters with fellow academics without flying into a rage and spitting up all over yourself. Since I have some basic dignity, you and I won't be discussing anything further. I don't just mean philosophy. You can fuck off with regards to logic, you can fuck off with regards to politics, you can fuck off with regards to relgion, you can fuck off with regards to matters of common interest or shooting the breeze. In fact, you can take this as a general, catch-all reccomendation for you to fuck right off.


After more name-calling incidences from you, as far as I was concerned the debate ended with this;

James S Saint wrote:
Uccisore wrote:P1 God exists.
Conclusion: Therefore, God exists.

That is clearly valid on the only definition of 'valid deductive argument' I know of.

That is tautological, not circular.
Circular means;
1) God exists because the universe exists
2) And the universe exists because of God.

A -> B because B -> A

Wiki wrote:Circular reasoning is often of the form: "A is true because B is true; B is true because A is true."


From NASA's report, they deduce that debris actually is in the vent. They did not know that it was there until after they examined the neurological readouts.
Uccisore wrote:'Evaluating neurological readouts' gives you a conclusion based on evidence, which is inductive, not deductive. I'm not sure if that will matter for what you're going to argue ultimately, just putting it out there.

Emmm... no.
Induction is generalizing specifics; "It happened that way the last time, so it will the next time".
Deduction is presuming cause and effect; "He felt something because something touched him".

Uccisore wrote:
But then you perhaps wish to argue that what he felt wasn't debris. NASA argues that there is nothing that should have been in that vent and thus anything that he could feel is, by definition, debris.
NASA reports:
1:00 AM) Debris is anything he can feel in the vent
2:00 AM) He felt something in the vent
3:00 AM) Debris exists in the vent.


Right, that's a sound circular argument. One problem is that it doesn't prove anything.

That's just ridiculous.

After which you tried to make a few excuses for yourself and I just walked away from it.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25765
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby Uccisore » Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:55 pm

It's too soon James, I'm just not looking for this kind of relationship right now.
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Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby AutSider » Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:49 pm

Actually, you're wrong James. Scientific induction isn't the same as logical induction (which is generalizing specifics). Scientific induction is making general conclusions from particular examples.
Science doesn't claim deductive certainty, nor do you have to be deductively certain in causal relationships to notice them and point them out.

But yea, I agree that's very un-moderator-like behavior by Uccisore, though I assume it was after being frustrated with Ecmandu, still, that's not much of an excuse. Then again, I personally don't care about such trivial insults.
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Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby Uccisore » Sat Apr 25, 2015 11:33 pm

Arbiter of Change wrote:Actually, you're wrong James. Scientific induction isn't the same as logical induction (which is generalizing specifics). Scientific induction is making general conclusions from particular examples.
Science doesn't claim deductive certainty, nor do you have to be deductively certain in causal relationships to notice them and point them out.

But yea, I agree that's very un-moderator-like behavior by Uccisore, though I assume it was after being frustrated with Ecmandu, still, that's not much of an excuse. Then again, I personally don't care about such trivial insults.


Oh, I was just trying to be in the spirit of the Rant House where the conversation happened. Did James not mention that part? He stepped into an Ecmandu thread that he apparently hadn't read very attentively (and who can blame him) to say I was wrong about a bunch of stuff. We had a couple exchanges, sort of like yours above where you explain to him what induction is, and instead of him disagreeing with me like a normal person and maybe citing something, he starts calling me - literally- a liar and a moron. So I told him to fuck off as quoted above. He followed me around for a little while, posting trash in threads I was active in, then he seemed to get tired of it. Figured that was that.
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Re: Ecmandu's No Fool

Postby James S Saint » Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:25 am

Arbiter of Change wrote:Actually, you're wrong James. Scientific induction isn't the same as logical induction (which is generalizing specifics). Scientific induction is making general conclusions from particular examples.

"Scientific induction" doesn't have anything to do with anything. Couldn't you find something real to dispute?

The argument was about whether there could exist any sound DEDUCTIVE argument concerning "concrete" objects.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25765
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

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