Born free, everywhere in chains!

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Born free, everywhere in chains!

Postby Stephen C Pedersen » Sun May 03, 2020 12:16 am

Society wraps us in swaddling clothes out of the womb and nails in a coffin when we're dead. From beginning to end, we are encircled in society. One argument is that culture, all that sweetness and light jazz, is the high point of civilization. However, is society beneficial if man has to toil away as a drywaller all their days, as a plumber, as a teacher, for as Rousseau says, as soon as one professionalized their passion, all sweet charms fade away. We're so engulfed in making a living that we forget how to live! Where in Rousseau's natural man, or the noble savage, we find a state of man more in tune with nature, and maybe more authentic to ourselves.

Is society beneficial on a whole, or detrimental? In the big picture of things, global warming is a cause of society so there's that whopper.
Last edited by Stephen C Pedersen on Sun May 03, 2020 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Born free, everywhere in chains!

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun May 03, 2020 12:53 am

Lol there's that.

But, yeah.

Chains only break upon Mastery.

And where such is concerned, the word fair should not be in someones vocabulary.
Where mastery is concerned, you have to leave that concept home.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Born free, everywhere in chains!

Postby Stephen C Pedersen » Sun May 03, 2020 1:06 am

Please elaborate on mastery, and how one achieves it. =)

Mastery of chains sounds like a gymnastic sport.
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Re: Born free, everywhere in chains!

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon May 04, 2020 11:55 am

You shall address me, first, as Your Highness and kneel.
Then I will disclose the first secret.


Well okay fuck that.

Mastery, is really not describable in words. It cant be represented.

You see, words and representation are what the chains are made of.


We can blabber here and form nice sentences but only when we manage to truly contradict the structure of language within language (such as value ontology does) do we gain access to freedom.
Freedom is clarity before ones valuing. No excuses.


FUCK now I gave away free fucking teaching.

Meaning, it wont be heard.

I - just - um - just imagine you paid me and kissed my feet.
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Re: Born free, everywhere in chains!

Postby Stephen C Pedersen » Tue May 05, 2020 6:30 pm

Fixed Cross wrote: Mastery, is really not describable in words. It cant be represented.

You see, words and representation are what the chains are made of.

We can blabber here and form nice sentences but only when we manage to truly contradict the structure of language within language (such as value ontology does) do we gain access to freedom.
Freedom is clarity before ones valuing. No excuses.

"Words and representation are what the chains are made of"
Words are what we do, it's humanities idiom ergon (Aristotle's psychological term for unique task.) Words are what sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom. I don't think there is a way to get past that and representation other than while having sex, or in mass, or in concerts, or in confession, in funerals. It takes immense connections for us to break that barrier, maybe it's not breakable though, maybe my examples are just scratching the surface.

When we read, we are essentially hallucinating ideas, feelings, peoples and places. We are masters of words.

Contradict the structure of language within language (such as value ontology does) do we gain access to freedom.

This i do not understand. Wittgenstein said that the limits of our language is the limits of our world. To contradict language might start to confusion and make us troubled and lost. How would it lead to freedom? I don't understand this sentence.
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Re: Born free, everywhere in chains!

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue May 05, 2020 8:55 pm

Stephen C Pedersen wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote: Mastery, is really not describable in words. It cant be represented.

You see, words and representation are what the chains are made of.

We can blabber here and form nice sentences but only when we manage to truly contradict the structure of language within language (such as value ontology does) do we gain access to freedom.
Freedom is clarity before ones valuing. No excuses.

"Words and representation are what the chains are made of"
Words are what we do, it's humanities idiom ergon (Aristotle's psychological term for unique task.) Words are what sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom. I don't think there is a way to get past that and representation other than while having sex, or in mass, or in concerts, or in confession, in funerals. It takes immense connections for us to break that barrier, maybe it's not breakable though, maybe my examples are just scratching the surface.

When we read, we are essentially hallucinating ideas, feelings, peoples and places. We are masters of words.

Only the very best poetic creator is a master of words and indeed, s/he is in control of he chains.
That words are our task (it befits the fucking douchebag Aristotle to think he knows so much about other animals precisely because he cant understand them, kek) doesn't mean we are masters of words or up to that task.

Our current world proves that the vast majority of humans are completely bewildered by words, and thus, slaves.
For example, people read "the news". They think because there are words there, that there are facts there. That is how very far humans are from setting even the first baby steps toward mastery.
If they would see their own automatic responses, they would realize the massive power the word has over them and they would realize perhaps even that this probably means someone is consciously using the word to acquire its power.

Contradict the structure of language within language (such as value ontology does) do we gain access to freedom.

This i do not understand. Wittgenstein said that the limits of our language is the limits of our world. To contradict language might start to confusion and make us troubled and lost. How would it lead to freedom? I don't understand this sentence.

Wittgenstein retracted everything he said about that when he realized that words are as arbitrary and essentially disjunct as they are powerful, do not form some kind of cosmos as he thought before. I presume this dawned on him when he learned some French or some language that has completely different kinds of terms than German and English have.

When W did realize the truth, he spent the rest of his career writing as confusedly as possible in order to escape the chains of language.

Quoting young Wittgenstein on philosophy is very popular these days, which is deeply ironic. His work stands only and purely as an example of what is absolutely completely misguided and naive. Thats his own opinion as well as mine.

The irony is perfect because his later work is so confused and French-ish that no one ever read it. I did read it though, because I admire his recantation of his errors. Not a lot of people have that integrity.
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Re: Born free, everywhere in chains!

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon May 11, 2020 11:01 pm

Stephen C Pedersen wrote:Society wraps us in swaddling clothes out of the womb and nails in a coffin when we're dead. From beginning to end, we are encircled in society. One argument is that culture, all that sweetness and light jazz, is the high point of civilization. However, is society beneficial if man has to toil away as a drywaller all their days, as a plumber, as a teacher, for as Rousseau says, as soon as one professionalized their passion, all sweet charms fade away. We're so engulfed in making a living that we forget how to live! Where in Rousseau's natural man, or the noble savage, we find a state of man more in tune with nature, and maybe more authentic to ourselves.

Is society beneficial on a whole, or detrimental? In the big picture of things, global warming is a cause of society so there's that whopper.


If there is benefit it is to produce technology, I think.


So, our TASK as humans is to attain a mastery over technology.

HEIDEGGER is relevant here but only in spirit.

What we're really looking at is weapon-management. Containment of destructive force.

This is the great leverage of chaos, and order will have to keep meeting chaos eye to eye for-ever. Until it fails.



Plato: Atlantis fell due to a great misfortune.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Born free, everywhere in chains!

Postby pinkladydragon » Wed May 13, 2020 6:31 pm

Stephen C Pedersen wrote:Society wraps us in swaddling clothes out of the womb and nails in a coffin when we're dead. From beginning to end, we are encircled in society. One argument is that culture, all that sweetness and light jazz, is the high point of civilization. However, is society beneficial if man has to toil away as a drywaller all their days, as a plumber, as a teacher, for as Rousseau says, as soon as one professionalized their passion, all sweet charms fade away. We're so engulfed in making a living that we forget how to live! Where in Rousseau's natural man, or the noble savage, we find a state of man more in tune with nature, and maybe more authentic to ourselves.

Is society beneficial on a whole, or detrimental? In the big picture of things, global warming is a cause of society so there's that whopper.


I do not think you paint the picture as black as it ought to be painted. The current structure of society is detrimental. In fact, it is far worse than you suggest. What you have described above is a slave society. Do you enjoy being a slave? Does anyone seriously believe that slavery is beneficial?

April was the 700th anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath...…"It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours, that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself".

In short, if people are not free, they die.
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Re: Born free, everywhere in chains!

Postby surreptitious75 » Fri May 15, 2020 5:15 am

We are always at the most technologically advanced stage of our existence but we can never truly free ourselves from the constraints of the human condition
But if this limitation is just accepted one can then focus their energy on what can be done as an individual and not worry about anything beyond their control
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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Re: Born free, everywhere in chains!

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat May 23, 2020 8:45 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:We are always at the most technologically advanced stage of our existence

Technology declined in the late Roman Empire. Compare craft from Caesars years to that from under Constantine and beyond.

You can also look at the average known age attained by ancient Greeks and people living a thousand years later; the Greeks were on par with present France, over 2 times the average lifespan of a Medieval person.

To extend the argument; our current scientific means do not seem to compare to those that built the Great Pyramid.

A loss of science can mean a liberation from conditioning, but usually means the opposite.
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