proof of my proposition

Discussion of the recent unfolding of history.

proof of my proposition

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:16 pm

the latest IQ45 really dumb remarks
came yesterday when he said that
he "wanted to reopen America in two weeks"
because the "cure is worse then the disease"
the cure being the economic shutdown of the
country....

and then LT. Gov of Texas said that grandparents
and parents should be "willing to die" to reopen
the economy....

Now think about this for moment... IQ45 is saying that the "cure"
of social distancing and shutting down the economy to "SAVE LIVES" is
the worse thing.. in other words, the economy is far more important
the saving lives....and the LT. Gov...is saying the exact same thing....

the financial, the economic aspect of our lives is more important
then our lives... that is Nihilism... whereas money/profits
have more values then human lives or their values...….

IQ45 is panicking because he is losing millions of dollars
and he isn't that wealthy to survive the impact... but so the fuck what....
millions upon millions of Americans are facing the exact same issue..
my wife hasn't worked in almost 3 weeks.. no income there...one
big bill like to repair a car.. assuming a open repair shop could be
found.. we don't have the resources to overcome that.....
and we are just one couple in the midst of over 100 million people
facing the exact same thing.....

how little respect for human beings one must have to so openly
proclaim that the almighty dollar has more value then
human life.....

the cult that worships IQ45 puts money/profits over
human lives and they call themselves Christians....

lucky for us, the states are the ones that are driving
the shelter in place in most of the country....

and the dumpster fire that is our president cannot
change what the states are doing.. and if he does,
then he is putting a lie to the long held argument of
the right, that government is best run by the local governments..
the city/county/state level and not on the national level....

but hypocrisy is the right name.... they would happily use
the supreme court to end abortion.. the national use of
ending something that they want to end...… big government
has value only if it is doing something you want.. that is
the right wings mantra..... big government to help other
people is wrong and unnatural but big government to help
me, that is ok, so says the right wing...

big bailouts of big business is great because it benefits the wealthy
but allow the poor to have enough money to eat is an unnecessary
entitlement and a waste of taxpayers money.. that is the
nihilistic mind thought of the conservative.....

how far have we fallen that we think that money/profits have
more value then human beings and their values?

where we think that the dollar bill has more value
then love or justice or freedom or hope?

this idea where we dismiss the value of people leads us to
be able to commit the crimes we see in the 20th century...

this attitude of people to put money/profits first leads us
to allowing the holocaust and the concentration camps
of youth in America today and the denial of human values
and the statement of LT. Gov that put money/profits over
the lives of our grandparents and parents....

and the drive of IQ45 to reopen the economy and thus leading
to the death of millions...

let us put human beings and their values first....
not money, not profits, not the economy, not bailouts
for big business or massive CEO pay for doing jack shit....

here you.. yes, you....
are forced to come to grips with what do you really believe in....

what values are really your values and what values were indoctrinated
into you... I can't believe that one would willingly adopt values that
would deny human beings and their values....would they?

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: proof of my proposition

Postby phyllo » Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:08 pm

China got it under control without shutting down the entire country.

Taiwan has it under control. They only closed schools for a couple of weeks. They acted quickly which may have saved them.

They didn't decimate their economies.

It's not clear whether the US can contain it locally. Certainly, the US is not testing enough so local containment is difficult.

It's not clear how many would become infected and die with either option - shutting down or reopening.

One sees results only after the decision is made. And one does not see what would have happened on the road not taken.
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Re: proof of my proposition

Postby iambiguous » Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:06 pm

phyllo wrote:China got it under control without shutting down the entire country.

Taiwan has it under control. They only closed schools for a couple of weeks. They acted quickly which may have saved them.

They didn't decimate their economies.

It's not clear whether the US can contain it locally. Certainly, the US is not testing enough so local containment is difficult.

It's not clear how many would become infected and die with either option - shutting down or reopening.

One sees results only after the decision is made. And one does not see what would have happened on the road not taken.


The thing here of course is that Trump and his clique/claque really have no one to blame but themselves. Had they taken the route of those nations that took the virus seriously --- massive testing, early closures, mobilizing the entire country -- things might not be what they are now.

But they didn't go that route and now they want us to trust them that this time they really are on top of "the right thing to do".

And the empirical evidence around the globe suggests that, if done right, it may well be "the best of all possible worlds".

The question is, "are they too late?"

Or, perhaps, is it still too early to go that route?

But then there are those like Dan Patrick in Texas who are willing to risk the lives of tens of thousands -- millions? -- in order to "put the economy first".

It's the fierce uncertainty of it all that yanks on many. Of course I'm already drawn and quartered myself. This is just one more context for me.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: proof of my proposition

Postby promethean75 » Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:08 pm

China got it under control without shutting down the entire country.

Taiwan has it under control. They only closed schools for a couple of weeks. They acted quickly which may have saved them.


That's right, and north Korea's got that shit whooped too. That's because that pudgy little fuck Kim Jung put the un on the coronavirus's punk ass. Sometimes all that legislative bullshit'll getchu in trouble. Sometimes you need one nigga to say yo, we fixin to do this this and this, and any y'all got a problem with it can have a nice little cot in a jail cell.

One thing fascism doesn't suffer; beaucratic bumbling.
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Re: proof of my proposition

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:14 pm

phyllo wrote:China got it under control without shutting down the entire country.

Taiwan has it under control. They only closed schools for a couple of weeks. They acted quickly which may have saved them.

They didn't decimate their economies.

It's not clear whether the US can contain it locally. Certainly, the US is not testing enough so local containment is difficult.

It's not clear how many would become infected and die with either option - shutting down or reopening.

One sees results only after the decision is made. And one does not see what would have happened on the road not taken.


K: any type of research tells us that China did in fact shut down their entire economy...
over half of it population was forced to shelter in place.. the estimate I saw was
over 800 million people were forced to shelter in place..... and reports from China
say that it is having a hard time regaining its economy..

the fact that the Chinese were able to basically shut down it economy and
succeeded in reducing the virus is the latest reports that suggest the
number of new cases has dropped dramatically...

of course, China follows the IQ45 theory of lying about everything...

so any reports must be taken with a grain of salt...

but still the essential point still stands... look at Italy, it shut down its
entire economy as did france and spain and the number of cases is still
rising.... why? because people did not take the call for social distancing
and staying home seriously...the lessons we must learn and they are
lessons is that in order to limit the number of cases and deaths of the
CV is to shut everything down... to open us the economy at this point,
is to risk getting every single American getting the virus...….

I am not as casual about life as you are....I think humans have far more
value then the economic or political systems or even, dare I commit
hearsay, money/profits...….

it is clear from the results from China and Italy and everywhere else,
we must, must have an entire shutdown of our society to rid ourselves
of this virus.... if you put the economy over human lives... congrats..
you are a member of the cult of IQ45 and the GOP...

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: proof of my proposition

Postby phyllo » Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:43 pm

K: any type of research tells us that China did in fact shut down their entire economy...
over half of it population was forced to shelter in place.. the estimate I saw was
over 800 million people were forced to shelter in place..... and reports from China
say that it is having a hard time regaining its economy..
No, they didn't.
It’s now critical that the rest of the world learn as much as it can from China’s efforts to respond to and limit the spread of the virus.

That was precisely the intention of a recent World Health Organization (WHO) mission to China, led by the agency’s assistant director general and veteran epidemiologist Bruce Aylward. Its major finding: “China’s bold approach to contain the rapid spread of this new respiratory pathogen has changed the course of a rapidly escalating and deadly epidemic.”

Bruce Aylward:

I think people aren’t paying close enough attention. The majority of the response in China, in 30 provinces, was about case finding, contact tracing, and suspension of public gatherings — all common measures used anywhere in the world to manage [the spread of] diseases.

The lockdowns people are referring to — the human rights concerns — usually reflect the situation in places like Wuhan [the city in Hubei province where the virus was first detected]. [The lockdown] was concentrated in Wuhan and two or three other cities that also exploded [with Covid-19 cases]. These are places that got out of control in the beginning [of the outbreak], and China made this decision to protect China and the rest of the world.

https://www.vox.com/2020/3/2/21161067/c ... id19-china
to open us the economy at this point,
is to risk getting every single American getting the virus...….
The virus is here for the long haul. It may take 18 months to develop a vaccine and to develop community immunity through exposure.

You don't know if opening up the economy in a month or two won't expose the entire population to wave 2 or 3 of the virus.

How long are you prepared to shut down the country?
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Re: proof of my proposition

Postby phyllo » Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:44 pm

South Korean response:
No matter how you look at the numbers, one country stands out from the rest: South Korea.

In late February and early March, the number of new coronavirus infections in the country exploded from a few dozen, to a few hundred, to several thousand.

At the peak, medical workers identified 909 new cases in a single day, Feb. 29, and the country of 50 million people appeared on the verge of being overwhelmed. But less than a week later, the number of new cases halved. Within four days, it halved again — and again the next day.

On Sunday, South Korea reported only 64 new cases, the fewest in nearly a month, even as infections in other countries continue to soar by the thousands daily, devastating health care systems and economies. Italy records several hundred deaths daily; South Korea has not had more than eight in a day.

South Korea is one of only two countries with large outbreaks, alongside China, to flatten the curve of new infections. And it has done so without China’s draconian restrictions on speech and movement, or economically damaging lockdowns like those in Europe and the United States.


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/23/worl ... curve.html
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Re: proof of my proposition

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:45 pm

the fact is, is if we open up the economy too soon,
we will have an massive increase in infections.... fact...
that is an undisputed fact.....

we must believe in human lives and values before money....

as for opening up the economy, I would wait until we
have a handle on this thing.. up to a year if necessary...
yes, that will be tremendous burden, but an economic burden
from which we can recover from...

I don't hold money in as high regards as you do...
money comes and goes... lives.... once gone, cannot
be replaced.....

this is the American fallacy which is jobs/work/career is
of prime importance, the one thing we must have...
whereas I understand that a job/career or work is
simply something people do to gain the basic necessities...
food, water, shelter, education, health care.....

we don't work because work is essential to the human being,
we work to gain the essentials and if we can get those
essential necessities, then work becomes irrelevant....

that is the big fear of those who own the economic system,
the big corporations and wealthy individuals, that they gained
their wealthy by lying as to how essential work really is....
there fear is that we stop believing in the big lie that we
have to work..... we don't.....

we live to work …. whereas the point is work aids us in living,
aids us in gaining the essential necessities of life....
that is why we work, not for any basic need to work...it isn't
part of human nature to work.. like eating or drinking water
or needed shelter is essential to human existence....work isn't
essential for human beings to survive..

I work so I can do what is really important to me which is
to think and read and write philosophy and other matters....

if I could get by without working, I would... in fact,
I would make the argument that work keeps me from
being a complete human being...… work/career/jobs
are in fact meant to hold one in subjugation to the existing order,
to those who have control of the economic system...…

if you want to be free... you must end the current economic
system which hold everyone in its tyranny of money/profits....

I hold to values, human values of justice and freedom and hope
and charity to be of the highest value... not greed or hate or
injustice or intolerance.....

what values you hold will dictate your beliefs and actions...

so what values are the values you are really promoting?

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: proof of my proposition

Postby phyllo » Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:58 pm

I can't imagine how you think people will pay for necessities over an extended period of time without an income.

A large number of people were already living from paycheck to paycheck before this hit.

Government support isn't going to go far if you have to pay millions of people.
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Re: proof of my proposition

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:15 pm

phyllo wrote:I can't imagine how you think people will pay for necessities over an extended period of time without an income.

A large number of people were already living from paycheck to paycheck before this hit.

Government support isn't going to go far if you have to pay millions of people.



K: I too am living paycheck to paycheck... over half of all Americans live
paycheck to paycheck.... and that is part of the failure of the capitalistic
system....and of course, as the LT. Gov of Texas suggests, perhaps we should
let old people die to protect our precious economy? Our precious money/profits....

this calls into question the values you hold if you are willing to allow people to
die just to maintain money/profits/the economy.....

work, the economy isn't what is important in our lives and if it is, then
you should probably reexamine what is important.....

yes, we should pay for people to remain in place until the crisis is over...
which is more important? money or people? my answer is clear..
is your answer also as clear?

Kropotkin
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Re: proof of my proposition

Postby phyllo » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:23 pm

The government is already in debt.

How is it going to be able to pay people? Where is the money going to come from?

Two or three trillion dollars is a drop in the bucket.
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Re: proof of my proposition

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:41 pm

phyllo wrote:The government is already in debt.

How is it going to be able to pay people? Where is the money going to come from?

Two or three trillion dollars is a drop in the bucket.



K: ah, you are still making assumptions...
you think money is a thing like tree's or people...
it isn't...money is a piece of paper.. nothing more....

money, per se, doesn't exist..

it is a created figment of imagination... like time...
time actually doesn't exist.
think of our measurements of time... it doesn't exists...
when we think of time, we think of time clocks
and it being right now, 2:33 in the afternoon...
and yet, that doesn't exists..

money is the exact same thing... it doesn't exists unless
you give it some value....how many different types of money
has existed in history.. for example, some cultures has used
sea shells as money.. which is called commodity money...
the Mesopotamian use money they called the "shekel"
and that was a unit of weight... was used in place of
goods like grains of barley...money can be precious metals, or
conch shells, or barley or beads... money only has some value if
we give it value....

we give money its value.. money doesn't give us value.....

and yet, some people think money give us value and money
doesn't even exists....

it is just a piece of paper that we have decided is worth X amount..
and that X amount can and has changed....

Kropotkin
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Re: proof of my proposition

Postby phyllo » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:50 pm

I guess this is why there are no philosopher kings.
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Re: proof of my proposition

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:08 pm

phyllo wrote:I guess this is why there are no philosopher kings.



K: ahh, you think of yourself as being "practical" of being on solid ground...
based in reality and thinkers and philosophers as being above the practical
realities of people and yet, the reality is... that everything we accept
right now as "truth" was once a philosophy, some thinker thought of it...

for example, Christianity is a practical fact today, but it was once simple
words uttered by a man in Judea as being theoretical, not of this earth...
Christianity doesn't exists until someone puts it into practice... it is theory....
a philosophy.....to be practical, one needs the theory first.. otherwise
the actions of being practical is mindless action with no other meaning
outside of being movement....movement without thought is nothing more
then being an animal...all acts of being practical needs theory, philosophy to
be effective....

Kropotkin
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Re: proof of my proposition

Postby Meno_ » Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:11 pm

May be excepting Marcus Auerilus
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Re: proof of my proposition

Postby phyllo » Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:17 pm

Meno_ wrote:May be excepting Marcus Auerilus
Stoics were practical and fully aware to the realities of life.
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Re: proof of my proposition

Postby Zero_Sum » Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:44 pm

It's going to be very interesting if spray tan Agent Orange [Orange Jesus] opens things up on Easter Sunday and a majority of Americans minus a minority of dumb assholes that the world would be better off without with anyways refuses to go back to work. :lol: 8)

What happens then? More importantly, what would the reaction be by Wallstreet?

Remember, you cannot spend any money if you're already dead.

What will outweigh more here, greed or fear? We're about to find out.
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