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Class Struggle

PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:52 pm
by Fixed Cross
Poor people will overcome rich people. Until that is the case, there is class struggle. All existence is subservient to this class struggle.

Objection: that classes aren't entities, and that entities sink and rise from one class to the other. Meaning class struggle is fundamentally impossible.

People struggle, not classes.

So what is the appeal of class struggle? It gives people opportunity to escape the fact of their being an entity, escape responsibility for the conflicts and paradoxes of life, and throw themselves whole heartedly in a collective frothy chaos of combative emotions, much like the mosh pit at a rock concert. The aim is more or less to be able to scream and yell and bounce around as wildly as possible, and acquire the feeling that one is effecting change for the better.

In as far as there is an aim to the positing of class struggle it is the dictatorship of the under-class. So, the upper-ness of the under-ness. Naturally indeed, when such an aim is held the struggle that leads up to it is infinite. The goal is a logical contradiction. This is, in short, the reason why class struggle is a lame idea.

Re: Class Struggle

PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:56 pm
by Pedro I Rengel
Marx really should not ever have been given a philosophy book.

Re: Class Struggle

PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:02 pm
by Fixed Cross
Yes its for reasons such as Marx that Nietzsche remarked that the invention of the printing press was one of the worst disasters to befall mankind.
We can go on at indefinite length on the ridiculousness of Marx. It starts with how he was provided for by an industrial magnate.

Re: Class Struggle

PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:06 pm
by Fixed Cross
--The idea in general is an oppressive one.
There is no redemption to it.
Whereas with actual struggle as waged by so many proletarians and slaves, which were about concrete values, there is the possibility of redemption and of glory and individual achievement.

Re: Class Struggle

PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:18 pm
by Gloominary
The overclass see themselves as a class, they organize against us, in order to compete against them affectively, we have to get organized.

Re: Class Struggle

PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:25 pm
by Gloominary
It's pragmatic, it's got nothing to do with metaphysics, or shirking responsibility, it's about survival, groups compete, they organize society for their interests.

Re: Class Struggle

PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:44 pm
by Fixed Cross
History has proven though that the class does not amount to a group. Which makes sense as groups are centred around values, and a class is designated from the outside. Marxism always causes great infighting and then fascists (great-capital) walk away with the power. How it has at least gone most of the time.

Its interesting though that you place the origin of class struggle with the upper class - that would mean the upper classes have employed Marxism for their own ends.

Re: Class Struggle

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:00 am
by Gloominary
Insofar as groups exist, the working class exists as a group.
They have shared interests.
They can and do form and join cooperatives and unions, they can and do form, join and vote for parties that represent their interests.

I'm not a Marxist, Marxism is dead, I'm a social democrat.
Economically I think Scandinavia has a workable system, but culturally and socially I don't care for their system.

Re: Class Struggle

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:27 am
by Fixed Cross
Which part of Scandinavia?
Norway is loaded with oil and has very scarce population, so it is no trouble to provide welfare.

Unions work, definitely, and they actually form groups. But this does not make of the whole working class one group. For example, look at the ruthless hatred between Social Democrats and Communists and inability to look beyond their ideological strife at national interests in Germany, in the 1930s.

Re: Class Struggle

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:55 am
by Urwrongx1000
Rich people work hard and take risks.

While poor people whine, complain, and beg for handouts.

The poor will never overtake the rich. Ever.

Re: Class Struggle

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:18 am
by Peter Kropotkin
Urwrongx1000 wrote:Rich people work hard and take risks.

While poor people whine, complain, and beg for handouts.

The poor will never overtake the rich. Ever.


K: so much bigotry and class hatred, I'm actually impressed
one post of three lines can hold so much disinformation...

I have to ask, are you poor or are you rich? and if you are rich, please
state your wealth? Your true wealth.... my guess is, I have a far larger
estate then you do.....but please tell us, without too much lying..
I know, I know, without any lies, you can't make an argument, but
please try....

Kropotkin

Re: Class Struggle

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:38 am
by Urwrongx1000
Share my wealth? To beggars and whiners?

Never!

Typical Socialist, Begging and Stealing.

Re: Class Struggle

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:50 am
by Pedro I Rengel
Here here!

Re: Class Struggle

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:45 pm
by Mad Man P
Urwrongx1000 wrote:Rich people work hard and take risks.


So do thieves, human trafficers, snake oil salesmen and drug cartels... yet we steal their con/blood/drug money from them when we catch them.
We don't seem to have a problem taking people's shit...

And it's not based on how hard they worked or how many riskses they took...

Re: Class Struggle

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:13 pm
by Karpel Tunnel
Urwrongx1000 wrote:Rich people work hard and take risks.
Some do, some don't. Some poor do, some don't.

While poor people whine, complain, and beg for handouts.
Rich people pay people to whine for them: lawyers, lobbyists, pr firms and more.

Re: Class Struggle

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:43 pm
by Gloominary
Urwrongx1000 wrote:Rich people work hard and take risks.

While poor people whine, complain, and beg for handouts.

The poor will never overtake the rich. Ever.

Aren't you the guy who posted this?


Re: Class Struggle

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:52 pm
by Gloominary

Re: Class Struggle

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:27 pm
by Karpel Tunnel
Yes, this whole idea of the whiney poor is really offensive. Some of The rich have whined their way to the current fiat banking system where money is made not through labor. The rich whined their way to the GlassSpeagal act retraction which led to 2008. Certainly there are lazy poor people, but in general when poor people whine it is about basic life matters. The rich whine about things most of us would never whine about. And their whining is exceptionally effective given the kinds of players they can pay to whine for them. They can whine their way to a war over bs ideas becuase it helps them with the companies and markets. And they do whine their way to these things. Right now the neo-cons are whining, I guarantee it, daily to Trump to get the next war that poor people will die in over markets and company profits. If Hilary had been in there would have been a much larger war already in either Syria or Iran, because she's down with the neocon plan. Trump, who I don't like, is more isolationist, hence the friction with the neocons. I don't doubt that if he gets one more term they will manipulate him into another war on bs grounds. (if this is taken as me liking Iran, please go back to kindergarten, you shouldn't have dropped out)

I think that Fixed Cross is right, in the sense that they are not a cultural group, they have no identity. There is a faction, however, within the larger group of the rich that does have a culture and that culture is coming more out into the open even for fairly blind people: via the whole Epstein thing, for example.

I find most people problematic at best. Rich people have less excuses and more ability to make their weaknesses and plastic natures affect others. So, they tend to annoy me much more than other people. It's a bit like small children shouldn't be given flamethrowers to play with. Well, most homosapiens should not ahve much wealth.

Oh, and no, that doesn't mean I like communism. There is noticing obvious problems that Communists may also notice and there are the various solutions to the problems. One can have vastly different opinions on the latter.

Re: Class Struggle

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:26 pm
by Urwrongx1000
Gloominary wrote:Aren't you the guy who posted this?


There are different types of rich people.

Most "rich people" work 60-100 hours per week.

Most "poor people" do not work at all, beggars, criminals, welfare mothers, etc. which is why they are poor.

Re: Class Struggle

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:31 pm
by Urwrongx1000


Skip to 3:20, socialists, communists, and anybody else who hate "the rich and powerful".

Those in power, work for it. They work harder than you, which is why they are where they are.

Re: Class Struggle

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:42 pm
by Gloominary
Fixed Cross wrote:Which part of Scandinavia?
Norway is loaded with oil and has very scarce population, so it is no trouble to provide welfare.

Unions work, definitely, and they actually form groups. But this does not make of the whole working class one group. For example, look at the ruthless hatred between Social Democrats and Communists and inability to look beyond their ideological strife at national interests in Germany, in the 1930s.

America's GDP is the highest in the world.
Its per capita GDP is much higher than the following countries, yet:

Argentina, Brazil, Cuba, Czech Republic, Greece, Hungary, and Turkey provide free education at all levels, including college and university for its citizens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_education

And it's higher than nearly all of the following countries:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_universal_health_care

Now I'm not telling Americans what to do, but the notion that they can't provide each and every citizen with free education, universal healthcare, as well as a better wage and more affordable housing, is absurd.


The working class is a group, even if most of them are unconscious of it, even if most of them are disorganized, ununited and divided, just as whites and blacks are a group or men and women are a group.
Definitionally you can belong to something without being conscious of it.

Re: Class Struggle

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:37 pm
by promethean75
Those in power, work for it. They work harder than you, which is why they are where they are.


i won't ask you to define 'work' cuz i don't wanna get in another fruitless debate with you, but i will show you the three levels of scumbaggery/parasitism that are possible in a capitalist system.

the lowest level of scum is the petite bourgeois, and this class generally consists of people who don't own businesses (and therefore don't pay wage earners for their labor) but idolize the materialistic lifestyles of the wealthy. in this category you can include, say, celebrities. also - and this is dreadfully ironic - proletarians (wage/salary earners) who are so backward and clueless they're like 'fuck it as long as i have enough credit to put a down payment on a 2021 camero, i'm good, bro.'

the middle level of scum is the moyenne bourgeois, and these are probably most generalized as one-time proletarians who became small business owners. these assholes are bigger scum than the petite because they actively and directly profit from exploiting wage/salary earners.

finally, the highest level of scumbaggery. the haute bourgeois. and these are the big dogs. trust fund babies, inheritors, CEOs, stock traders, etc.

there are also two general kinds of proletariat. one is the noble and courageous worker and the other is the 'lumpen' proletariat. this latter type consists of all the lower class refuse that lives off the government, which is funded by the working class, btw.

your boy jordan peterson is an intellectual puppet propped up by protestant conservatives to combat the leftism trends now circulating through the universities and in the media. his job is to re-brainwash college kids and youtubers into fearing socialism again... like they did during the HORRIBLE red scare.

Re: Class Struggle

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:55 pm
by Gloominary
Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Gloominary wrote:Aren't you the guy who posted this?


There are different types of rich people.

There are different types of rich, and poor people.

Most "rich people" work 60-100 hours per week.

Firstly, that may be true of the nouveau riche, but I doubt it's true of the rich in general.
Secondly, even if it were true, then exclusively increase taxes on the idle rich, vulture capitalists, the bailed out and subsidized rich, the illegal hiring rich, and exclusively redistribute it to working class citizens.

Most "poor people" do not work at all, beggars, criminals, welfare mothers, etc. which is why they are poor.

In Canada and the US, there's more working poor than nonworking poor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_poor

Re: Class Struggle

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:54 pm
by Pedro I Rengel
Better to struggle, with class...

Than to class struggle.

Re: Class Struggle

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:42 am
by promethean75
okay that was clever. quotable even.