Curious.

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Curious.

Postby Mowk » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:57 am

I am from the East and I am not used to the concept of rigidly either right or left as in Western politics.
In such terms of Western politics [I don't prefer], my views can vary from middle-right to center to middle-left depending on the circumstance with the objective to optimize the results suited to my overall objectives toward perpetual peace and well being.

I believe Americans if they can, should abandon being in a pigeon-hole of either politically right or left. Rather they should focus on what is to be a good human being for the sake of the whole of humanity. This can be achieved via philosophy-proper that encompass the full range of positive knowledge and wisdom.


I am not quite certain of where your meaning lies.

Let us for the moment set aside national affiliation. We are first and foremost fellow planeteers. We find ourselves upon this rock, together, due to no choice of our own. How are "we" going to survive? I placed we in quotes because it is individually relevant, not a select few but us.

So let us begin with a more detailed description of what the brainwashing of the left actually is, that you envision. Are there grey areas? Basic cultural differences. As example the difference in language preference in culture that places the descriptor before or after the thing it describes. That flag is white compared to that is a white flag. Trivial? Or perhaps something has taken place below the radar that isn't so trivial.

My fault?

From where do our tendencies arrive? I would appreciate a sort of peace I have not felt here, on this rock, ever. And I am getting old.
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Re: Curious.

Postby barbarianhorde » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:24 pm

Mowk wrote: As example the difference in language preference in culture that places the descriptor before or after the thing it describes. That flag is white compared to that is a white flag. Trivial? Or perhaps something has taken place below the radar that isn't so trivial.

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Re: Curious.

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:53 am

Mowk wrote: As example the difference in language preference in culture that places the descriptor before or after the thing it describes. That flag is white compared to that is a white flag. Trivial? Or perhaps something has taken place below the radar that isn't so trivial.
I've often wondered if the minimal inflection in English has contributed to individualism. The words are more stand alone, less affected by what is going on in other parts of the sentence.
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Re: Curious.

Postby Mowk » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:18 am

barbarianhorde wrote:brillant


If I knew you better I wouldn't wonder if you were being sarcastic. Likely you'll just let me wonder on that one word response.
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Re: Curious.

Postby Mowk » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:53 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Mowk wrote: As example the difference in language preference in culture that places the descriptor before or after the thing it describes. That flag is white compared to that is a white flag. Trivial? Or perhaps something has taken place below the radar that isn't so trivial.
I've often wondered if the minimal inflection in English has contributed to individualism. The words are more stand alone, less affected by what is going on in other parts of the sentence.


English as a language has roots, both cultural and genetic. I'd guess our political tendencies have similar roots in culture and genetics. The so called right and left tendencies and their extremes are programmed into our genes. We've mixed the gene pool of ourselves up quite well, and the process relied upon doesn't copy the contributors exactly into their offspring.

Not sure what is behind, how and when and to what degree the martini gets shaken, or stirred but the result of the process can't always be labeled Gin or a martini.

Is "brainwashing" (an unmistakable cultural influence) even capable of addressing and or affecting that sort of genetic differentiation? Can someone born one way without any genetic tendencies be manipulated by cultural influences, or are they the progenitors of new cultural influences. It does seem as if ethics are rather spontaneous in response.

What sort of person would jump to a conclusion of a cultural influence? Say perhaps one who has a tendency to resist change. Where do the political motivations come from? Politics is, after all how we negotiate our position in society. That would make sense if there are genetic differences there would be cultural and political differences that would follow. And as far as traits go, genetic differentiation that affects us today could have been passed on to us prior to humans becoming human.
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Re: Curious.

Postby Mowk » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:05 am

Monogamy. Are those that develop life long relationships just culturally disposed to it? Or are there underlying genetic tendencies and affiliations toward it as a success strategy? The same could be asked about creating life long friendships. Is that a mere cultural artifact or does it run deeper? Again, I wonder if a notion of brainwashing can match to all the circumstances and situations.

Some people are hypnotically suggestible and some are not. There seems a bit more then just culture taking place. Can brainwashing be defined as anything but cultural?
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Re: Curious.

Postby Mowk » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:09 am

So, barbarianhorde, Karpel tunnel, and Prismatic567, what do you think? Is the left merely brainwashed, or is something else occurring as well? Come on, settle the nature verses nurture debate, once and for all.
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Re: Curious.

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:13 am

Mowk wrote:So, barbarianhorde, Karpel tunnel, and Prismatic567, what do you think? Is the left merely brainwashed, or is something else occurring as well? Come on, settle the nature verses nurture debate, once and for all.
Most people are meme carriers with little agency.
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Re: Curious.

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:21 am

Mowk wrote:Some people are hypnotically suggestible and some are not. There seems a bit more then just culture taking place. Can brainwashing be defined as anything but cultural?
There are degrees of having one's psyche be malleable. I would use brainwashing to cover very specific types of aggressive short term processes where people are being moved from viewpoint A to viewpoint B very consciously, likely by a team that is thinking of this particular individual and how to break them down and move them along. I do see similarities between this and what happens more en masse, but I'd want to reserve that word for what I describe. And yes, some people are easier to break down in these intense brainwashing sessions. And also some people are more suseptible to manipulation that is aimed widely and not individually, via parenting, schooling, and the various media, including advertising, music and film, news and so on. A lot of this is implicit and the people writing and creating the passing on of memes are just carriers. IOW no specific conspiracy or plan. They got infected and pass on the ideas. I think nurture and nature affect how much one can resist. Do the parents treat you like an agent and allow you to question things? did the pedagogy encourage it? (very rare) What was your group of friends like? Were you through happenstance exposed to anomalies in official stories, in expert or mainstream opinion at some point? I think one incident where you encounter something that speaks radically against a common view, can lead one to question consensus or subculture consensus in all or many areas?

I think innate temperment is a big factor also. Though this is harder to track.
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Re: Curious.

Postby Mowk » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:11 am

Your next post, cuts a little too close to home. Not sure if I should attempt to answer it personally or idealistically. I have, at times, a real temperament. You've likely seen it on display.
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Re: Curious.

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:27 pm

Mowk wrote:Your next post, cuts a little too close to home. Not sure if I should attempt to answer it personally or idealistically. I have, at times, a real temperament. You've likely seen it on display.
It's tricky with brainwashing or being subtly over time inculcated into a beliefs. Even very tempermental people, who rebel against authority often take on another authority, one that other memes that have been seeping into them seem to indicate are true or more freely chosen or satisfy the person more. I see cranky, rebels who buck the system, who challenge authorities, tied to the mast of other memes that have trickled down to them, just not through the authorities that bugged them, for whatever reason they bugged them. It is very hard to truly extricate yourself from all the mind fucks.
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Re: Curious.

Postby Meno_ » Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:20 am

And..... It gets curiouser and curiouser
The solid South used to be a Republican stronghold..now, it is the epitimy of Democrats.
It is not the party, but the supposed values which appear to delineate popular conviction.
Character affiliation appear to be a.centrist identifiable position.
It's a safer bet .

I think it can safely be asserted that color is that which part of identity that relied on an abstracted value, which changed everything on the South, while party affiliation became a second rate qualifier.

Which does reaffirm the existential mantra, 'esse est percipii' In Missouri it goes further, 'seeing is believing'
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Re: Curious.

Postby Mowk » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:39 pm

"It is very hard to truly extricate yourself from all the mind fucks."

Very difficult indeed, particularly given notions of that which is true or thought of as a known. I guess perhaps I am becoming much less interested by the mind fuck of what is true and more interested in if a guess can provide another opportunity to guess. That is to ask, are our successful guesses improving our capacity to guess successfully? "Success" being defined here as the capacity to guess again. An unfolding, I guess for the lack of any better capability to define it.
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Re: Curious.

Postby Meno_ » Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:45 pm

Mowk,

Mind fucks consist of the ability to separate the fuck of the mind from that of the body.
Is it determinative that we are socially fucked, as a whole, or does our strength consist of striking back against the leveling power that our will can resist?
Can we establish a perceived boundary whereby we can identify the forces which try to reduce such awareness?

For boundaries are established for that purpose as well, and when internal enemies appear to overwhelm this capacity, the exportation of that power becomes necessary to prevent internal collapse.
Internal collapse is the appearance of a state of awareness, where conflicting (values) - parties, are perceived as interpenetrable, and mixed beyond recognition. The identifiable characteristics of such change, dilute and appear to change the abstracted conceivable product, whereas, structural differentiation remains intact on primary levels.

How this is done is no mistery, changes in value are left unperturbed, by the processes of unavailability, of primary constructions of power.

It means very little to model secondarily processed simulated reductions of appearent value, since with increasing capital accumulations, the surgically changed appearent diminished value, at par with increased social numerical expansion, identifiable characteristic types appear to dissolve at par with rates of dissolution.
Note: appearent material dissolution can overcome a nominal sense of resolution, as at par with the laws governing de-construction.

That is at the source of contention between material and immaterial dialectic. It is not apparently reducible, and ends in contradiction. Primary types of being are not reducible existentially, without a perciable contradiction to nothingness.
Communism, literally is unsupportable in terms of Rousseau's description of social contract, and when certain intolerable limits are reached, the dynamic tends to curve under it's own weight, and singularly, appearent alienation takes it's course within the supposed pseudo Kantian synthetic logic.

This hypothesis begs further analysis, as historically, at least, signaling a possible emergence of such a model.

Rosa Luchtensein's failure, consisted in the in recognition of this lack of transparency into the failure of the primacy of unsustained eidectic reduction, even if, she had innately realized it's relation to the phenomenologically reduced Being into Nothingness.
Sartre's failure is consistent with his abandonment of Communism post Nov.1956-1957.

Note: please do not look at the above as an unsupportable exposition or even diatribe, to support the idea of alienation, (to self victimize or anything else) , ((Reismann, The Vanishing Adolescence)), or even attempts to undermine my' appearance as 'being around the block' , etc.,but only an attempt to explore new ground, within and without the current administration's position , as it seems almost fallacious.

It's s just that, from the moment I came to ILP, I expressed my desire to write in likeliness , of expectation of mirroring Dostoevsky's "Letters from Underground" ( and again in semi likened), as iambig points out rightly that my objection to nihilism as criticism , while partially being submerged in appearance serves somewhat an excercise in irony.
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Re: Curious.

Postby barbarianhorde » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:18 pm

Mowk wrote:So, barbarianhorde, Karpel tunnel, and Prismatic567, what do you think? Is the left merely brainwashed, or is something else occurring as well? Come on, settle the nature verses nurture debate, once and for all.

No I wasnt being sarcastic you asshole. Jesus.
The way you formulated the issue is brilliant.

Is the left brainwashed? If so, by whom? They are surely completely deranged and a danger to their own survival, and their totalitarian approach to being insane is guarantee that all kinds of nasty cvil wars are going to break out.
I think KP is right, these are people with no agency. Certainly proof that "human being" as such is not worth much.

But my suspicion has always been, at least since I understood false flag operations in a Nietzschean, long term sense, that these civil wars are being deliberately provoked, thus that the left is deliberately being brainwashed by Nietzschean groups that are convinced that mankind can only reach some form of seriousness, some way of not being a disease, through very heavy and dangerous struggle with its nature.

Leftism at this point is a threat in the sense that it is pure stupidity coupled with pure weakness couple with pure cowardice and all this in extremely great numbers. I think we can all agree on that.
But what is the long term effect of this?
What happens when "the right" (actual human individuals) are provoked into action?

I think thats the interesting and tantalizing question.

All conservative groups I know are poised now, guns cocked and axes sharpened, to go to war. And if such a war comes, then the outcome of it is a truly new world.
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Re: Curious.

Postby Mowk » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:22 pm

Mind fucks consist of the ability to separate the fuck of the mind from that of the body.


An interesting notion. I'm not sure yours is complete in its description. A mind fuck to me is intellectual, it is a substitution of a belief for knowledge; a guess based on personal experience alone, usually relying on conditions that can't be repeated or empirically ascertained by persons other then those who hold the belief.

If I were to knowingly attempt to claim I had created a perpetual motion machine when in reality I was just cleverly contriving its appearance, that would be a mind fuck. It's a "magic" trick not unlike the illusions magicians rely on. Present an experience in such a way as to fool someone into believing their experience was true. A misdirection of attention such that the person believes in the validity of their experience. If I didn't see it with my own eyes.. The rouse being they didn't see it with their own eyes. What was actually taking place was hidden from their perceptions.

The universe is not the author of mind fucks, it's just the stage on which they are perpetrated. Several animals on the planet use misdirection in this way, or attempt to. Some use it as a means of acquiring food, and more complex animals use it as a means to satisfaction of ego. As in I'm so smart you'll just have to believe me cause you just ain't smart enough to grasp any measure of it on your own, and even if I attempt to assist you, it will escape your capacity to grasp it.

If you are the only one on the planet that believes something is true, it is the best indication it isn't. If, in order to substantiate what you believe is true, you rely solely on other things in which only you believe, it is also a fair indication it isn't. It doesn't depend on how much time to claim to have invested or how smart you claim yourself to be. Passing it off as a fact is a mind fuck.
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Re: Curious.

Postby barbarianhorde » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:27 pm

"If you are the only one on the planet that believes something is true, it is the best indication it isn't."

Like these fools Newton and Copernicus should have known. It's best to distrust your findings because the rabble around you knows best.

Brilliant.

that was sarcasm.
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Re: Curious.

Postby barbarianhorde » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:29 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Mowk wrote:So, barbarianhorde, Karpel tunnel, and Prismatic567, what do you think? Is the left merely brainwashed, or is something else occurring as well? Come on, settle the nature verses nurture debate, once and for all.
Most people are meme carriers with little agency.

Which is why here is no such thing yet as "human being" -

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Re: Curious.

Postby barbarianhorde » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:39 pm

As long as there are humans who consider what they do and what they are as separate things, our species is on the whole inferior to any other animal, or any organic lifeforms - as long as we believe we can go to work, do heinous shit there and then come back and not be heinous shit, our species is parasitic in the worst possible way.

It is mind boggling to conceive the possible resolutions. Scary.
Better to let it run its course than try to formulate it explicitly.
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Re: Curious.

Postby Mowk » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:47 pm

Mowk wrote:
So, barbarianhorde, Karpel tunnel, and Prismatic567, what do you think? Is the left merely brainwashed, or is something else occurring as well? Come on, settle the nature verses nurture debate, once and for all.


No I wasnt being sarcastic you asshole. Jesus.
The way you formulated the issue is brilliant.


So I'm an asshole for this?

I can only imagine this post is your reference.

Mowk wrote: barbarianhorde wrote:
brillant


If I knew you better I wouldn't wonder if you were being sarcastic. Likely you'll just let me wonder on that one word response.


But I did not have much prior experience of a poster named barbarianhorde to find much assurance either way.

Man you must of thought I was an asshole way before this post. If you may have gone by other usernames, it would have only been a guess of mine as to whom you might be. One word "brilliant" could easily pass as sarcasm if one didn't know any better. And I didn't "know" any better, didn't even have faith in my ability to guess.

I've been insulted way too many times on this board to take a single word response as anything more then sarcasm. And yes, I can be an asshole, people keep telling me that, so it must be true.

If I apologized for my confusion would you consider me any less? Seems like your mind is fairly made up on the matter.
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Re: Curious.

Postby barbarianhorde » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:51 pm

"If you are the only one on the planet that believes something is true, it is the best indication it isn't."

My grandfather was the only one of his batch in Auschwitz who believed he would make it out alive, and he was the only one of his batch who did make it out alive.
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Re: Curious.

Postby barbarianhorde » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:52 pm

It was a mild reproach, or meant as such. My later attacks are more serious.
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Re: Curious.

Postby Mowk » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:58 pm

Re: Curious.

Postby barbarianhorde » Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:27 pm
"If you are the only one on the planet that believes something is true, it is the best indication it isn't."

Like these fools Newton and Copernicus should have known. It's best to distrust your findings because the rabble around you knows best.

Brilliant.


Funny you should mention Newton and Copernicus. Do you believe for a moment, other people weren't thinking along these lines all along. That they were soley unique in their thinking? That no one else could conceive of such relationships?

It is always a race for the credit with the human species. Yeah if it weren't for these folks we give the credit to we'd all be left in the stone age.
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Re: Curious.

Postby barbarianhorde » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:58 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:"If you are the only one on the planet that believes something is true, it is the best indication it isn't."

My grandfather was the only one of his batch in Auschwitz who believed he would make it out alive, and he was the only one of his batch who did make it out alive.

And when back home and remarried (wife murdered by the consensus) he picks dup his studies and got his doctorate with a thesis "the praise of unadaptedness", which is a step by step explanation of how what you're saying here is precisely the opposite of how the world works. It was of course rejected by the establishment (the world disagreed, so he was wrong, right?) until suddenly it skyrocketed to fame in the 60s.
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Re: Curious.

Postby barbarianhorde » Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:00 pm

Mowk wrote:
Re: Curious.

Postby barbarianhorde » Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:27 pm
"If you are the only one on the planet that believes something is true, it is the best indication it isn't."

Like these fools Newton and Copernicus should have known. It's best to distrust your findings because the rabble around you knows best.

Brilliant.


Funny you should mention Newton and Copernicus. Do you believe for a moment, other people weren't thinking along these lines all along. That they were soley unique in their thinking? That no one else could conceive of such relationships?

It is always a race for the credit with the human species. Yeah if it weren't for these folks we give the credit to we'd all be left in the stone age.

Oh God.
You clearly haven't read these people or their contemporaries, and have fallen for the leftist mongoloids idea that "if they weren't the lucky ones to have discovered it someone else would have!"

Bravo.
I see stupidity and mob-opinionating is closer to your heart than thought.
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