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Abortion

PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:06 am
by Artimas
What are your thoughts on this touchy subject in societies politics?

Do you think abortion should or shouldn't be allowed?

Is abortion in most cases a quick escape from responsibility?

People should be able to do what they want with their own bodies and consciousness but do you think some things should just not be condoned in order to not promote ignorance or an evading of responsibilities collectively?

Re: Abortion

PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:42 am
by FreeSpirit1983
Abortion is killing. I think that's just a biological fact.

What annoys me is when people disagree with this, even if they think it should be legal :)

I find all the arguments for abortion to be really terrible, because it's still killing, regardless.

Re: Abortion

PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:16 pm
by Artimas
FreeSpirit1983 wrote:Abortion is killing. I think that's just a biological fact.

What annoys me is when people disagree with this, even if they think it should be legal :)

I find all the arguments for abortion to be really terrible, because it's still killing, regardless.


I think so too, but the moral issue is worse for a promotion of not being responsible more so than killing. The argument of it being murder or killing can be fought against easier than bringing up the obvious avoidance of the responsibilities and consequences. At least with how I view it. Every person knows if they have sex that pregnancy is possible, if one knows then they consent and are no longer in grounds to just "change their mind" when the pleasure is gone and there is no more convenience. Mankind tricks itself or deems pleasure greater than consequence or risk and then avoids responsibility. Which we do not need a lack of.

Re: Abortion

PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:29 pm
by WendyDarling
If abortion is killing, then let the women have control over their bodies and have the abortion, but then imprison them for a murder sentence.

Re: Abortion

PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:41 am
by FreeSpirit1983
WendyDarling wrote:If abortion is killing, then let the women have control over their bodies and have the abortion, but then imprison them for a murder sentence.


Do you think that's plausible?

Re: Abortion

PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:44 am
by WendyDarling
It would give them another choice beyond not using birth control effectively, but the choice would not be a shirking of responsibility in exchange for murder plus they would still be able to make the decision regarding their body but they would be held responsible for killing another living being. The child still dies, but responsibility would no longer be ignored.

Plus, what's not plausible today when there are 90+ genders and men and women are equal, men are women and women are men, and children are persecuted as adults, along with all the other past implausibilities that are plausible today.

Re: Abortion

PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:13 am
by surreptitious75
I used to be anti abortion then I was pro abortion now I am neither because I cannot make up my mind anymore
So I am therefore entirely detached from it as a moral issue because of my inability to make an absolute choice

I am not a woman so will never have to make a decision to have an abortion and should not judge women that do
Equally so I see no moral reason to have an abortion where there are no medical or psychological reasons for one

These two positions are mutually incompatible and so make it impossible for me to have an opinion on abortion

So my position now is that when ever a woman does have one I have absolutely no say on it at all - precisely zero
Because the last thing women want is another man mansplaining to them what they should do with their uteruses

Re: Abortion

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:09 pm
by Gloominary
I used to believe life begins at birth, but upon further reflection, while I tend to believe life begins at brain activity now, rather than at birth, heartbeat or conception, I think I still support a woman's right to terminate during any stage of her pregnancy, because I see this matter as sort of a grey area.
That being said, I'm not sure how I feel about late term abortions, perhaps there should be some restrictions on those, so maybe life affectively begins just before late term, for me.
My beliefs are no longer firm in this matter.

Re: Abortion

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:22 am
by Silhouette
When you try to force a complex multi-faceted argument into a single simple answer for the sake of clear practical application in law...

Make up your mind one way or the other and find your team, or find your team and make up your mind based on that - apparently that's the political extent of common anti-philosophical dis-intellectual ability.

When someone tries to give a simple one-sided answer to this question, ignore them immediately.

Re: Abortion

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:05 am
by Mad Man P
FreeSpirit1983 wrote:Abortion is killing. I think that's just a biological fact.


Scratching your ass too hard is killing, biologically it's a mass extinction of life... life in possession of human DNA, no less.

surreptitious75 wrote:Because the last thing women want is another man mansplaining to them what they should do with their uteruses


Who cares what the misandrists want?

Silhouette wrote:When someone tries to give a simple one-sided answer to this question, ignore them immediately.


Sound advice.

Re: Abortion

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:07 am
by Karpel Tunnel
WendyDarling wrote:It would give them another choice beyond not using birth control effectively, but the choice would not be a shirking of responsibility in exchange for murder plus they would still be able to make the decision regarding their body but they would be held responsible for killing another living being. The child still dies, but responsibility would no longer be ignored.
would your concerns about the child lead you to pacifist or partially pacifist positions on war, since war will always include deaths of pregnant women and the children they carry? Let alone Hiroshima or Dresden. IOW when do we get to break the rule. And yes, I understand that in war what might be called murder is often seen as moral, even a duty. However the babies in the womb are utterly innocent.

Re: Abortion

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:25 pm
by WendyDarling
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:It would give them another choice beyond not using birth control effectively, but the choice would not be a shirking of responsibility in exchange for murder plus they would still be able to make the decision regarding their body but they would be held responsible for killing another living being. The child still dies, but responsibility would no longer be ignored.
would your concerns about the child lead you to pacifist or partially pacifist positions on war, since war will always include deaths of pregnant women and the children they carry? Let alone Hiroshima or Dresden. IOW when do we get to break the rule. And yes, I understand that in war what might be called murder is often seen as moral, even a duty. However the babies in the womb are utterly innocent.

98% of people in a war are utterly innocent. The 2% decides for the country that war is happening. I'm for allowing pregnant mothers to find neutral territory in which to birth their babies.

Re: Abortion

PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:50 am
by Karpel Tunnel
WendyDarling wrote:98% of people in a war are utterly innocent. The 2% decides for the country that war is happening. I'm for allowing pregnant mothers to find neutral territory in which to birth their babies.
But since that's not something that happens as a rule, you accept that babies will die and wars are ok. Or? Which wars and interventions and policies (embargos, for example) the US engaged it did you think they should not have, given that innocents including those in wombs would be killed.

Re: Abortion

PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:33 am
by Mr Reasonable
I think abortion should be legal until the kid turns 18.

Re: Abortion

PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:14 pm
by barbarianhorde
Abortion of a rape-baby seems maybe okay. Like it would be okay to murder the rapist. It needs to be done the next day though, not a week can go by otherwise there is apparently enough need for a baby to keep it.
All other forms, I know it destroys the woman's soul. Seen that several times. They don't recover, go on meds, become prostitutes.

Okay my phone corrected that to prostiTunes.

Re: Abortion

PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:21 am
by Karpel Tunnel
barbarianhorde wrote:Abortion of a rape-baby seems maybe okay. Like it would be okay to murder the rapist. It needs to be done the next day though, not a week can go by otherwise there is apparently enough need for a baby to keep it.
All other forms, I know it destroys the woman's soul. Seen that several times. They don't recover, go on meds, become prostitutes.

Okay my phone corrected that to prostiTunes.
I know a quite a number of women who did not, after, go on meds or become prostititutes. Since the number of people on meds these days is extremely high, I'd need to see some pretty large sample data to back up the idea that more women who have abortions do this. The becoming prostitute thing is just silly.

Re: Abortion

PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:07 pm
by Artimas
Mr Reasonable wrote:I think abortion should be legal until the kid turns 18.


That's a pretty smart idea. Legalize it for younger not mature women, victims of rape and non consensual sex, above 18-21 not legal? I feel the whole abortion ideal is about maturity and responsibility, if one consents knowingly, then they must face the consequences. I believe women after 21 are typically mature right? Perhaps 24?

Re: Abortion

PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:07 am
by Mr Reasonable
Artimas wrote:
Mr Reasonable wrote:I think abortion should be legal until the kid turns 18.


That's a pretty smart idea. Legalize it for younger not mature women, victims of rape and non consensual sex, above 18-21 not legal? I feel the whole abortion ideal is about maturity and responsibility, if one consents knowingly, then they must face the consequences. I believe women after 21 are typically mature right? Perhaps 24?


That's not what I mean. I mean that until a person turns 18, the parents should be able to abort them.

Re: Abortion

PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:45 am
by promethean75
this is actually a brilliant idea.

instead of parents being the legal guardians of children below the age of 18, they become the legal guardians after the child turns 18. this way, the parents get 18 years to observe the child and decide whether or not they want to be the parents, and have the option of terminating that obligation if the kid turns out to be bourgeois or a slacker.

Re: Abortion

PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:35 am
by Artimas
Mr Reasonable wrote:
Artimas wrote:
Mr Reasonable wrote:I think abortion should be legal until the kid turns 18.


That's a pretty smart idea. Legalize it for younger not mature women, victims of rape and non consensual sex, above 18-21 not legal? I feel the whole abortion ideal is about maturity and responsibility, if one consents knowingly, then they must face the consequences. I believe women after 21 are typically mature right? Perhaps 24?


That's not what I mean. I mean that until a person turns 18, the parents should be able to abort them.


That's Savage as fuck but it could work.

Re: Abortion

PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:49 pm
by barbarianhorde
Why, would you rather have been aborted?

Of courser mr R is joking to draw attention away from the horrendous bloody mess that abortion is, not to mention the thriving organ-trade derived from it.
I know a bunch of women who have had abortions and none of them ever get over it. When conversation turns to it they sink deep into their soul into an eternal pain that is just there and always will be. They literally killed their own blood.

Re: Abortion

PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:55 pm
by Arcturus Descending
barbarianhorde


I know a bunch of women who have had abortions and none of them ever get over it. When conversation turns to it they sink deep into their soul into an eternal pain that is just there and always will be. They literally killed their own blood.


Thank you, barbarianhorde, This is why I composed that Letter to an Unborn Child. To give these women some moments to really decide if that is what they truly wanted to do. I have seen many of those faces going in and coming out that you described above.

Of course, there are those women who just feel that they have unloaded excess baggage...

Re: Abortion

PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:19 pm
by iambiguous
Arcturus Descending wrote:barbarianhorde


I know a bunch of women who have had abortions and none of them ever get over it. When conversation turns to it they sink deep into their soul into an eternal pain that is just there and always will be. They literally killed their own blood.


Thank you, barbarianhorde, This is why I composed that Letter to an Unborn Child. To give these women some moments to really decide if that is what they truly wanted to do. I have seen many of those faces going in and coming out that you described above.

Of course, there are those women who just feel that they have unloaded excess baggage...


Sure, there will be women who feel this way. Just as there will be women who do not.

But what ultimately counts here is the extent to which the law of the land is willing to punish those women who do not regret having an abortion.

And, then, here, the extent to which philosophers are able to weigh in on this and provide us with an argument that is either more or less able to resolve it.

Some see abortion as a moral issue aimed at bringing the unborn into the world -- a world populated with all the rest of us who were not aborted. Others see it as a political issue aimed at providing women with true equality with men in a world where only women can become pregnant.

I merely suggest that each of us as individuals have come to acquire a particular moral narrative here as the embodiment of dasein. And not as someone in possession [philosophically or otherwise] of the most rational and virtuous assessment there can ever be.

Re: Abortion

PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:15 pm
by Karpel Tunnel
Arcturus Descending wrote:barbarianhorde
Of course, there are those women who just feel that they have unloaded excess baggage...
I wouldn't use that metaphor but the women I know who've done it did not regret the choice, some later chose to have children, other not. In most instances I've know the men were even less interested in having the child, and I have never met a man who did know about the abortion of his potential child who was concerned at all. I know there are men who are upset if the choice is made without their input and some who are upset about the choice to have the abortion. But generally the men seem relieved and less ambivalent than the women.