Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?

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Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?

Postby Greatest I am » Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:05 pm

Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
Taxation determines what poverty levels will exist within it’s demographic form. It controls the graph shown below. Governments control taxation and thus control poverty levels directly.
Imagine if you will, the real truth of that taxation, if used correctly, to move the wealth shown in this graph wherever it wants to, with minimal effect on the whole. The fact is, experts say that such a reality would be a win win for everyone.
https://www.upworthy.com/9-out-of-10-am ... ing-fact-2
Not how little of a change would be needed to reach the ideal.
Wise and moral people throughout history, as well as most religious movements, put poverty as the number one enemy to man’s first priority, which is security.
For perhaps the first time in history, we have the wealth where we could end poverty quite easily, --- just with our collective loose change.
It would seem to me that governments are not acting ethically and should be chastised.
I guess that George Carlin, a wise person, was correct in what he said of what Americans cannot feel in their anal orifices. I apply the same condition to the vast majority of the world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-14SllPPLxY
If true that we are being willfully ignorant, and do not even care about each other to insure we live in a moral environment, then our owners have succeeded in cowering man’s moral nature to a state of subservience. We have given up our freedom. If we ever had any.
We have all accepted to be slaves. Shame on us all.
We do not live in a Democracy. We live in a Hypocrisy.
We can easily rid ourselves of poverty.
Should we?
Morality says yes.
Will we do the right thing?
Not till hell freezes over.
Regards
DL
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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?

Postby WendyDarling » Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:21 pm

This topic should not be in the Religion subforum, should be moved to Society, Government, and Economics to get an appropriate viewing and discussion.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?

Postby Carleas » Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:24 pm

Agreed; moved.
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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?

Postby Silhouette » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:12 pm

Greatest I am wrote:We do not live in a Democracy. We live in a Hypocrisy.

Love it :D

Greatest I am wrote:Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
Taxation determines what poverty levels will exist within it’s demographic form. It controls the graph shown below. Governments control taxation and thus control poverty levels directly.

Given P1: that Government controls taxation, and P2: taxation determines what poverty levels will exist, then yes, governments to a degree control poverty levels directly: Modus Ponens - albeit relative to whatever other factors also control poverty, if any.

A direct control does not entail a significant degree of control, if other direct or even indirect factors are more controlling.

But even if controlling taxation was the sole, or even a major factor in controlling poverty, I am not sure I accept P2 in the first place: that taxation determines what poverty levels will exist.

To get the obvious out the way, taxation goes towards services that can counter at least someone's poverty - only difference here is someone else (in government) is deciding what the money is spent on instead of you if you had not been taxed. Maybe the money goes back into something that makes you better off, maybe it doesn't. For some people, they are net beneficiaries of tax, others are not. It's a control to adjust what the market is doing by its own devices.

But this opens up the bigger question of whether or not the government choice on how to spend the money it taxes, instead of leaving it to you, creates poverty. It might make you poorer at the point of taxation, but it may or may not make you richer depending on what it spends it on, compared to what you might have spent it on. It might make society as a whole richer whether or not you individually are poorer or richer. So what purchases make richer and what make poorer?

Investment in a valuable product or service makes richer. Tax can do that, so can you if you are not taxed: tax is independent of richness or poorness - in fact, the correlation between taxation and GDP per capita is probably a negative one: with the countries with least taxation being the poorest, and vice versa. What makes a country rich is the ability to get money to the right people to create value, and to the right people to spend on what they value. The better individuals do this, the less tax they should be charged, and the better government does this, the more tax should be charged.

Therefore it can be moral or immoral for our governments to tax us, depending on the above.
And it is immoral to impose poverty whether it is governments or individuals who compromise the ability to get money to the right people to create value, and to the right people to spend on what they value.
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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?

Postby Greatest I am » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:27 pm

Silhouette wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:We do not live in a Democracy. We live in a Hypocrisy.

Love it :D

Greatest I am wrote:Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
Taxation determines what poverty levels will exist within it’s demographic form. It controls the graph shown below. Governments control taxation and thus control poverty levels directly.

Given P1: that Government controls taxation, and P2: taxation determines what poverty levels will exist, then yes, governments to a degree control poverty levels directly: Modus Ponens - albeit relative to whatever other factors also control poverty, if any.

A direct control does not entail a significant degree of control, if other direct or even indirect factors are more controlling.

But even if controlling taxation was the sole, or even a major factor in controlling poverty, I am not sure I accept P2 in the first place: that taxation determines what poverty levels will exist.

To get the obvious out the way, taxation goes towards services that can counter at least someone's poverty - only difference here is someone else (in government) is deciding what the money is spent on instead of you if you had not been taxed. Maybe the money goes back into something that makes you better off, maybe it doesn't. For some people, they are net beneficiaries of tax, others are not. It's a control to adjust what the market is doing by its own devices.

But this opens up the bigger question of whether or not the government choice on how to spend the money it taxes, instead of leaving it to you, creates poverty. It might make you poorer at the point of taxation, but it may or may not make you richer depending on what it spends it on, compared to what you might have spent it on. It might make society as a whole richer whether or not you individually are poorer or richer. So what purchases make richer and what make poorer?

Investment in a valuable product or service makes richer. Tax can do that, so can you if you are not taxed: tax is independent of richness or poorness - in fact, the correlation between taxation and GDP per capita is probably a negative one: with the countries with least taxation being the poorest, and vice versa. What makes a country rich is the ability to get money to the right people to create value, and to the right people to spend on what they value. The better individuals do this, the less tax they should be charged, and the better government does this, the more tax should be charged.

Therefore it can be moral or immoral for our governments to tax us, depending on the above.
And it is immoral to impose poverty whether it is governments or individuals who compromise the ability to get money to the right people to create value, and to the right people to spend on what they value.


The right conclusion.

As to who gets to pay the tax on goods and services, I have heard one of our oligarchs mention that the poor can and do pay a lot more tax than the rich as much of their income goes to taxes while just a bit if any of the rich person's cash goes to taxes.

Regards
DL
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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:30 am

Greatest I am wrote:
The right conclusion.

As to who gets to pay the tax on goods and services, I have heard one of our oligarchs mention that the poor can and do pay a lot more tax than the rich as much of their income goes to taxes while just a bit if any of the rich person's cash goes to taxes.

Regards
DL
The rish also get more services and are treated better by all sorts of government organizations. They also get to radically affect foreign policy, what roads and other infrastructure built, where toxic dumps will end up, what laws get passed, how laws are enfornced, how the courts will view their needs and potential suffering in prison, and all sorts of stuff that doesn't really fit with a democracy.
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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?

Postby Greatest I am » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:41 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
The right conclusion.

As to who gets to pay the tax on goods and services, I have heard one of our oligarchs mention that the poor can and do pay a lot more tax than the rich as much of their income goes to taxes while just a bit if any of the rich person's cash goes to taxes.

Regards
DL
The rish also get more services and are treated better by all sorts of government organizations. They also get to radically affect foreign policy, what roads and other infrastructure built, where toxic dumps will end up, what laws get passed, how laws are enfornced, how the courts will view their needs and potential suffering in prison, and all sorts of stuff that doesn't really fit with a democracy.


You are correct and hopefully know that we do not live in democracies, we live in oligarchies and or Hypocrisies.

Regards
DL
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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:57 am

Yes, the US is an oligarchy.
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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:17 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Yes, the US is an oligarchy.


I like a realist. =D> =D>

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