Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Discussion of the recent unfolding of history.

Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Prismatic567 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:10 am

Mowk wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:
Mowk wrote:1. Narciscism - Medium to high
2. Egomania - Medium to high
3. Psychopathy and sociopathy - low to Medium
4. Driven for success - 90/100
5. Goal driven 90/100

How do you rate him regarding truth, integrity and character?


I would rate Trump's integrity as high as noted by his very aggressive attempts to perform and meet the promises he had made. If Trump do not has a reasonable degree of integrity he would not have been successful as the businessman he was.


You might want to check how successful a business man he is. There are many reports to the contrary. Maybe if the facts aren't really known? Perhaps why he hasn't released his income tax records.
In terms of success, one critical measuring indicator is the person's net worth, i.e. his assets over his liabilities which I read is a net-asset position [2-3 billion$] for Trump. I read Trump was once VERY debt laden but no more and that he had learned his lessons to be debt free is one great achievement.

    In its 2018 billionaires ranking, Forbes estimated Trump's net worth at $3.1 billion (766th in the world, 248th in the U.S.). Bloomberg Billionaires Index listed Trump's net worth as $2.48 billion on May 31, 2018, and Wealth-X listed it as at least $3.8 billion on July 16, 2018.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_of_Donald_Trump

I don't think that is the definition of integrity. Here is a sample from businessdictionary.com "Definition of integrity: Strict adherence to a moral code, reflected in transparent honesty and complete harmony in what one thinks, says, and does."

Try the search "trump hires illegal immigrants"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/integrity
"Definition of integrity
1 : firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values : incorruptibility
2 : an unimpaired condition : soundness
3 : the quality or state of being complete or undivided : completeness"

I think perhaps you may be suffering from a bit of bias yourself.

The value for "integrity" is comprised of a wide range of traits, i.e. with synonyms like;

    honesty, uprightness, probity, rectitude, honour, honourableness, upstandingness, good character, principle(s), ethics, morals, righteousness, morality, nobility, high-mindedness, right-mindedness, noble-mindedness, virtue, decency, fairness, sincerity, truthfulness, trustworthiness

Meeting his promises is 'uprightness' honorableness, principles "trustworthiness"which I think is one of the most critical trait re one's integrity.

Trump has a large building and construction empire. I don't believe his organization has a policy to hire illegal immigrants. This non-compliance is likely to be committed by his employees down the line 'once upon a time' without his direct approval.

Character wise, Trump is a very aggressive and very determined high achiever, perhaps to feed his egomania as a boaster.
One very noticeable weakness with Trump is his very 'thin skin' which again is related to his high ego. I don't see this as a problem if there are no evil and violent intent involved.
In Trump's case there is need to consider a trade off between the positive results he produced and any consequences of the above negative traits. I see a net-positive in Trump's case.


Not that kind of character, I was asking more along the lines of moral character. Faithful? Truthful? Honest? Doesn't take advantage of others. That sort of thing. Above suspicion.


Btw, I did not insist Trump is perfect without blemish in terms of morality. Morality, i.e. good versus evil comes in degrees. The point is how critical are those "immoral" acts that he had committed. Did he murder anyone? I am sure the FBI would have cleared him of any serious immoral acts before allowing him to be a candidate for President.

In terms of truth one has to consider the weightage and criticalness of the statement to some relevant criteria, e.g. National Security, economy, etc.

One problem which is typical and common with most people is he is caught up with generalization without specific qualifications.

    E.g. his reference to "Baltimore" in is tweet which is very general whereas the real problem is specifically with West Baltimore and not the whole of Baltimore. I think Trump like everybody presumed that is common public knowledge and expected everyone to know the specific. Perhaps it is because Twitter has a word limit thus he could not elaborate the details.

However from a philosophical point of view, the above is a fallacy of generalization.

One point is whatever statements given by Trump they are open to be fact-checked by the whole world and thus if anything statement is critical it would have been exposed for consideration.

It is difficult to stop Trump from speaking the way he does but what is critical is we need to consider the weightage and criticalness of the truth of the statement and how it will effect the USA and the world.


There are many examples of his "facts" being checked. Does how critical a lie it is, in any way imply it's still not the truth?

His rhetoric is hateful and childish. He refers to anyone who he perceives as an opponent with what he intends as demeaning insults and belittlement.

Note the baseline is the FBI, CIA and other authorities would have cleared him of any significant immoral and evil acts to allow him to be a presidential candidate.

I agree some of Trump's tweets are childish, belittling, put-downs but definitely not hateful. Which ones are hateful? I believe you have misperceived them as 'hateful'.

What you are bringing up about Trump are merely 'sweating the small stuffs' as you had been brainwashed and bewitched by the media and the leftists.
What is critical and reasonable is to focus on whether Trump has performed well in accordance to his 'Employment Contract' as President of the USA.

It is obvious the President of the USA's performances is an open book for all to verify. After two and half years, Trump had indeed performed very well in his job.
However what is very sick is the media and the left NEVER report on his achievements but always report negatively on Trump in every which way.

Note the recent New York Times changing their headline from neutral truthful reporting to bias lies and rhetoric.


Here one by Tim Pool a liberal centrist [objective reporting] on;

Fake News About Trump Is Getting Insane And It's Tearing America Apart
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Mowk » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:50 am

In terms of success, one critical measuring indicator is the person's net worth, i.e. his assets over his liabilities which I read is a net-asset position [2-3 billion$] for Trump. I read Trump was once VERY debt laden but no more and that he had learned his lessons to be debt free is one great achievement.


You believe Trump is debt free. Think about the conflict of interest if he wasn't. His corporation is divested of his interest as result of the potential conflicts it would create. As long as Trump is president, he has as much worth as he is able to save from his paycheck. Trump isn't suppose to have an empire while an acting president. He is to have no involvement with "his" holdings at all.

A persons net worth, monetarily? What does that say about humanity. Feel your way around his treatment of others? You aren't going to do it with a calculator.

Btw, I did not insist Trump is perfect without blemish in terms of morality. Morality, i.e. good versus evil comes in degrees. The point is how critical are those "immoral" acts that he had committed. Did he murder anyone? I am sure the FBI would have cleared him of any serious immoral acts before allowing him to be a candidate for President.


I'm not so sure I can agree with your sentiment regarding degrees of morality. I think you are confusing the ideas of what is moral and what is criminal. I believe it is immoral to take what you haven't worked for, but we haven't legislation for all the ways people get away with doing that. Our laws regarding what is criminal haven't kept up with our ideas of morality. The FBI or CIA can't charge him for being self centered or egotistic unless in those acts he has committed and infraction of a criminal code. Just because he hasn't been charged. does not imply he is moral to a degree. It is a Boolean equation. Two negative truths in a table don't yield a truth. Any negative yields a negative.

Note the baseline is the FBI, CIA and other authorities would have cleared him of any significant immoral and evil acts to allow him to be a presidential candidate.


Sub-note: That is an inadequate baseline. They would only be capable of clearing him of criminal acts, that have previously been legislated. We can't prosecute anyone for being evil or immoral, unless it is a legislated crime.

I agree some of Trump's tweets are childish, belittling, put-downs but definitely not hateful. Which ones are hateful? I believe you have misperceived them as 'hateful'.


It's not just his "tweets" (but an interesting diversion to limit the scope) but its fairly systemic of every thing he says in speeches as well.

And perhaps we should look at a definition of hateful and see how many ticks are placed in which column.

Definition of hateful, from Webster-Meridian.

1 : full of hate : malicious
2 : deserving of or arousing hate

His comments regarding McCain seem to quality as malicious.
His speeches at his rallies in this opinion appear to qualify as arousing hate. The results are in the news, but that's just Trump's rhetoric. Do you think he can't be held accountable?

Let's look as some of the synonyms:
bad [slang], bitchy, catty, cruel, malevolent, malicious, malign, malignant, mean, nasty, spiteful, vicious, virulent.

Listening to him speak, you wouldn't tick a check on at least of few of these? Hateful.

What you are bringing up about Trump are merely 'sweating the small stuffs' as you had been brainwashed and bewitched by the media and the leftists.
What is critical and reasonable is to focus on whether Trump has performed well in accordance to his 'Employment Contract' as President of the USA.


He has? What do you know of his employment contract?

Brainwashed And bewitched. Wow that is some opinion you hold of my capacity. Sounds sort of like you hate that. You hateful too, or just frustrated?

It is obvious the President of the USA's performances is an open book for all to verify. After two and half years, Trump had indeed performed very well in his job.
However what is very sick is the media and the left NEVER report on his achievements but always report negatively on Trump in every which way.


You are starting to sort of sound like a Trump parrot. What media have you been paying attention too?

I am not an American and believe I can offer a more objective view on Trump and his psychology.


In retrospect It doesn't look like this is true. You have confused criminality with morality and notions of evil. Your entire argument rests on the premise that someone would have recognized evil or lack of morality and prevented him from becoming president, therefore he can be neither immoral or evil.

You do know that if you stick your finger in the hole, you can for a while, retard it from becoming bigger. It takes a world to make the world go round but Donald Trump thinks he can do it himself. That is some ego. What leftist agenda am I bewitched by?

It's a two way street and traffic runs in both directions, or are you one of those that thinks they own the street?

If not an American then what? I became here.
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Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Prismatic567 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:01 am

Mowk wrote:
In terms of success, one critical measuring indicator is the person's net worth, i.e. his assets over his liabilities which I read is a net-asset position [2-3 billion$] for Trump. I read Trump was once VERY debt laden but no more and that he had learned his lessons to be debt free is one great achievement.


You believe Trump is debt free. Think about the conflict of interest if he wasn't. His corporation is divested of his interest as result of the potential conflicts it would create. As long as Trump is president, he has as much worth as he is able to save from his paycheck. Trump isn't suppose to have an empire while an acting president. He is to have no involvement with "his" holdings at all.

A persons net worth, monetarily? What does that say about humanity. Feel your way around his treatment of others? You aren't going to do it with a calculator.

"Debt Free" that was a hasty mistake.
I meant Trump is not burdened with a net-debt position, i.e. more assets than 'debts and liabilities' thus his net worth reported as between $2-3 billion.

Btw, I did not insist Trump is perfect without blemish in terms of morality. Morality, i.e. good versus evil comes in degrees. The point is how critical are those "immoral" acts that he had committed. Did he murder anyone? I am sure the FBI would have cleared him of any serious immoral acts before allowing him to be a candidate for President.


I'm not so sure I can agree with your sentiment regarding degrees of morality. I think you are confusing the ideas of what is moral and what is criminal. I believe it is immoral to take what you haven't worked for, but we haven't legislation for all the ways people get away with doing that. Our laws regarding what is criminal haven't kept up with our ideas of morality. The FBI or CIA can't charge him for being self centered or egotistic unless in those acts he has committed and infraction of a criminal code. Just because he hasn't been charged. does not imply he is moral to a degree. It is a Boolean equation. Two negative truths in a table don't yield a truth. Any negative yields a negative.

Note I am confident with my knowledge of the Philosophy of Morality and Ethics in this forum. Note my posts on the subject.

The framework of morality and ethics and independent from but related to the judiciary & legislation which is politics.

According to Kant, morality represent the ideals while ethics represent the practical aspect of morality on a personal basis.
The morality and ethical principles are adapted for political matters within the related legislature and judiciary.

Within the above there are degrees.
In terms of morality [i.e. ideals] obvious there is a difference between the subject of genocides, mass rapes, murders, to petty crimes.
Being self-centered and egoistic is not a moral issue because one can do good [without evil acts] by being self-centered and egoistic.
In terms of morality, obviously there is a difference in degrees if we compare Trump to Hitler, Stalin and other evil dictators on one side, and Gandhi to the other extreme. Trump is somewhere in between.

Note the baseline is the FBI, CIA and other authorities would have cleared him of any significant immoral and evil acts to allow him to be a presidential candidate.

Sub-note: That is an inadequate baseline. They would only be capable of clearing him of criminal acts, that have previously been legislated. We can't prosecute anyone for being evil or immoral, unless it is a legislated crime.

Your knowledge of the Philosophy of Morality and Ethics is weak, thus your points above has no weight.

I agree some of Trump's tweets are childish, belittling, put-downs but definitely not hateful. Which ones are hateful? I believe you have misperceived them as 'hateful'.


It's not just his "tweets" (but an interesting diversion to limit the scope) but its fairly systemic of every thing he says in speeches as well.

And perhaps we should look at a definition of hateful and see how many ticks are placed in which column.

Definition of hateful, from Webster-Meridian.

1 : full of hate : malicious
2 : deserving of or arousing hate

His comments regarding McCain seem to quality as malicious.
His speeches at his rallies in this opinion appear to qualify as arousing hate. The results are in the news, but that's just Trump's rhetoric. Do you think he can't be held accountable?

Let's look as some of the synonyms:
bad [slang], bitchy, catty, cruel, malevolent, malicious, malign, malignant, mean, nasty, spiteful, vicious, virulent.

Listening to him speak, you wouldn't tick a check on at least of few of these? Hateful.

You are getting deceptive here, note

    Hate:
    a: intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury
    b : extreme dislike or disgust : ANTIPATHY, LOATHING
    had a great hate of hard work
    c : a systematic and especially politically exploited expression of hatred
    a crime motivated by bigotry and hate

Even in politics there should be elements of 'intense' and 'extreme.' Currently the use of 'hate' in politics is rhetoric and an abuse.

In the case Trump insults of others, he is merely playing a political game and there is no record of such when he was in the business world.

Btw, philosophically [if I am not mistaken, it was Aristotle] the term 'hate' is reserved from the dislike of things that cannot be changed, i.e. race, genes, handicap, terminal illnesses, and the likes. 'Hate' should not be used for 'religion' because one can change one's religion.

What you are bringing up about Trump are merely 'sweating the small stuffs' as you had been brainwashed and bewitched by the media and the leftists.
What is critical and reasonable is to focus on whether Trump has performed well in accordance to his 'Employment Contract' as President of the USA.


He has? What do you know of his employment contract?

Obviously there must be an employment contract!

Brainwashed And bewitched. Wow that is some opinion you hold of my capacity. Sounds sort of like you hate that. You hateful too, or just frustrated?

I am stating facts objectively.
From the way you expressed your points, it is most likely you are brainwashed and bewitched by the media and the left.
Otherwise present your arguments objectively with more facts.

It is obvious the President of the USA's performances is an open book for all to verify. After two and half years, Trump had indeed performed very well in his job.
However what is very sick is the media and the left NEVER report on his achievements but always report negatively on Trump in every which way.

You are starting to sort of sound like a Trump parrot. What media have you been paying attention too?

I give attention to all the various range of media from all over the world.
What is most critical is I strive to be objective, rely on evidence and argument leveraged on the principles of Philosophy.

I am not an American and believe I can offer a more objective view on Trump and his psychology.

In retrospect It doesn't look like this is true. You have confused criminality with morality and notions of evil. Your entire argument rests on the premise that someone would have recognized evil or lack of morality and prevented him from becoming president, therefore he can be neither immoral or evil.

Actually it is you who is lacking in the knowledge of the Philosophy of Morality and Ethics.

You do know that if you stick your finger in the hole, you can for a while, retard it from becoming bigger. It takes a world to make the world go round but Donald Trump thinks he can do it himself. That is some ego. What leftist agenda am I bewitched by?

It's a two way street and traffic runs in both directions, or are you one of those that thinks they own the street?

If not an American then what? I became here.

You are anti-Trump without giving a balanced view just like those on the left.
You don't give any considerations for anything positive he has done at all but emphasized on only the negatives just like the left and its media.

Meanwhile I acknowledge Trumps has his negatives cons and pros as well. Overall, his performance as the President of the USA so far is net-positive.

I am from the East, not in the USA and is not an American, thus not embedded with either Republican or Democrats ideology.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Prismatic567 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:38 am

As I mentioned above;
"In the case Trump insults of others, he is merely playing a political game and there is no record of such when he was in the business world."

To be effective and succeed in a political game one has to be very fluid and flexible to switch from one extreme to the other extreme strategically to adapt in achieving one's objective [that is positive to humanity]. This is why the best politically leaders has to have some reasonable degree of being a psychopath, i.e. being more objective and not be a slave to one's emotion.


Do you think Trump political romance with Kim Jon Un is really for real?
Nah! this is purely a political strategy with minimum friendly sentiments. Note Trump and Kim were condemning each other not too long ago.
In this case Trump is smart to keep the path to negotiate on a more 'friendly' term. Here Trump had kept a restraint on his ego for the greater good of humanity - Don't you know that!

Your condemnation of Trump without any consideration for the good and positive things he had done for the USA and humanity is a sure sign you had been brainwashed, hoodwinked and bewitched by the media and the left.
Btw, how had Trump's behavior and policies effected you personally in terms of financially, job availability, taxes, etc. other than your own personal bias psychological misperception indulgent in negativity.
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Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:21 am

Like I stated earlier: trump inherited a bubble.

He'd be talented if he could fuck that up!

It doesn't say much about the man.

When it comes to character and integrity, he has none.
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Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Mowk » Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:56 am

List what you believe are his accomplishments.

I sense I was born with a different genetic makeup then you that may explain what values I am drawn to that differ from yours. I am fond of the question of nature and nurture and really like the updated terminology of genes and memes. It seems to fit.

So Trump has accomplished a lot. I just don't agree with his agenda. I am pro earth, would rather error on it's side. So Trump has accomplished a great deal of things I believe are mistakes. If he vows to build a wall and succeeds you're like look at his integrity. He came though on a campaign promise. What if it's a promise I wish he didn't make in the first place? That I don't recognize them as successes is more about what I perceive his values are that informs his morality. I'm really stuck on a fence here. If I'm brain washed at all it comes from a distinction between individual success at the cost of all else, which is something I just can't agree is a success. The alternative is we are better capable working together to augment each others weakness as a definition of success. The cosmic debate seems to rage on.

If you wish to characterize thought of other species, our ecosystem, and our viability on the planet as left wing propaganda that is of course up to you. Trump has accomplished a great deal but I will still argue that I don't think of them as accomplishments. I recognize that perhaps you do, so let us discuss his accomplishments and see what has been accomplished from your perspective.

If you think that makes me brainwashed, certainly I would entertain the potential of a debriefing.

Just as a primer of the sort of metric I value.

Suicide rates in the nation, up or down? The integrity of family values up or down. Collectively are we happier in our day to day experiences of life as a result of Trumps contributions. Do we feel any more secure. Are more or less individuals able to reach their potential? These are the things I value. They are the frame work of what I question is morality. The ideology that affects practical application and is adapted to legislature and our judicial system?
Last edited by Mowk on Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Mowk » Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:12 am

My wife and I are debt free, (I mention that because I live is a mutual property state, where both husband and wife are considered a share.) Have been way before Trump took office. We owe money to no one, save for our governance, which is consistently doing less for more. Income is sufficient to cover cost. Has been, way before Trump took office. We plan ahead, my wife and I, have never taken on a financial burden we were not prepared to cover because of economic fluctuations. I have never had to negotiate with banks for favor. In our sixty years we have weathered a lot from both parties.

So what is your definition of success exactly?
Last edited by Mowk on Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Mowk » Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:00 am

You have mentioned, in several posts that what Trump is doing with his rhetoric is playing a political game.

How does morality factor into politically playing a game in real life when a game isn't actually being played. (Is it really a game, and what does that say) Unless of course you believe the lives and experiences of children is just a game. I hope not.
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Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Mowk » Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:12 am

#-o #-o #-o

Even though we live frugally and have managed to save up something for retirement, It will likely not be enough, given the outrageous cost of health care, particularly, medicine, assisted living and nursing homes. Any sort of early retirement don't look like a viable option. Right now our cost for prescription medicine is over $470 a month, out of pocket. So no, Trump hasn't improved the outlook.

He holds his tongue for the N. Korean dictator, who is still launching missiles, and attempting to build nuclear bombs. Yeah, he has held his tongue, and hasn't accomplished anything but getting a "beautiful" letter. Good show.

Brainwashed by the left? I am the left, you say that like it's a bad thing. I do not find the right very forward thinkers. But I need a right hand. It would be utopian if the middle was the head that kept either hand in check and working together. We don't have a strong middle, and I don't see Trump striving towards any sort of center.
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Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:33 am

Ecmandu wrote:Like I stated earlier: trump inherited a bubble.

He'd be talented if he could fuck that up!

It doesn't say much about the man.

When it comes to character and integrity, he has none.

You are merely blabbering.
List down the pros and cons with appropriate weightages from Trump, then explain his net-position.
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Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:40 am

Prismatic567 wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Like I stated earlier: trump inherited a bubble.

He'd be talented if he could fuck that up!

It doesn't say much about the man.

When it comes to character and integrity, he has none.

You are merely blabbering.
List down the pros and cons with appropriate weightages from Trump, then explain his net-position.


I already linked you to real news:

https://www.google.com/search?client=sa ... M_v4mjOq0I

You chose not to discuss it

I should qualify this by stating that it's real news in standard news circles, in that dimension of news, which is a lower dimension.

You don't have shows which are "the state of the cosmos", so even this is technically not real news.

But you get my gist.
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Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:59 am

Mowk wrote:List what you believe are his accomplishments.

I sense I was born with a different genetic makeup then you that may explain what values I am drawn to that differ from yours. I am fond of the question of nature and nurture and really like the updated terminology of genes and memes. It seems to fit.

So Trump has accomplished a lot. I just don't agree with his agenda. I am pro earth, would rather error on it's side. So Trump has accomplished a great deal of things I believe are mistakes. If he vows to build a wall and succeeds you're like look at his integrity. He came though on a campaign promise. What if it's a promise I wish he didn't make in the first place? That I don't recognize them as successes is more about what I perceive his values are that informs his morality. I'm really stuck on a fence here. If I'm brain washed at all it comes from a distinction between individual success at the cost of all else, which is something I just can't agree is a success. The alternative is we are better capable working together to augment each others weakness as a definition of success. The cosmic debate seems to rage on.

If you wish to characterize thought of other species, our ecosystem, and our viability on the planet as left wing propaganda that is of course up to you. Trump has accomplished a great deal but I will still argue that I don't think of them as accomplishments. I recognize that perhaps you do, so let us discuss his accomplishments and see what has been accomplished from your perspective.

If you think that makes me brainwashed, certainly I would entertain the potential of a debriefing.

Just as a primer of the sort of metric I value.

Suicide rates in the nation, up or down? The integrity of family values up or down. Collectively are we happier in our day to day experiences of life as a result of Trumps contributions. Do we feel any more secure. Are more or less individuals able to reach their potential? These are the things I value. They are the frame work of what I question is morality. The ideology that affects practical application and is adapted to legislature and our judicial system?

My mission and vision for humanity is perpetual peace.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_peace - Charles-Irénée Castel de Saint-Pierre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual ... cal_Sketch - Kant

I have to be realistic and understand the above is an ideal but nevertheless all people should strive and improve toward the ideal.
I am not forcing the above on others recognizing that different people at present have their own vision and mission. However I would recommend each individual should attempt to align their vision, mission and objectives toward perpetual peace optimally.

I agree the manifesto Trump has established is not perfect, there are blemishes but the expected results are net-positive towards perpetual peace and a reasonable well being for the USA and humanity. A good contrast of Trump has to be done with Hitler, Stalin and the present dictators at present around the world.

There are a million and one thing that one has to achieve to meet the average standard of perpetual peace. Given the limited time and resources, a government will have to prioritize and balance all the relevant critical constraints to achieve what is optimal to the circumstances.

I believe Trump achievement is net-positive and optimal till the present. Note Trump has only been president for 2+ years and is facing irrational and insane opposition who are willing to hinder his progress at all costs. Given what Trump had achieved despite the terrible opposition, that itself is a great achievement.

Suicide rates must be reduced but that cannot be a priority at present given the current circumstances.
One thing that is positive is Trump has generated the 'Can Do' spirit for the citizen of the USA [which is existing in China at present] which can be translated to 'Can Do' for anything of good intents.
Obama [Economically stupid and ineffective] resigned and surrendered to the impossibility of USA increasing manufacturing but Trump reversed that with effective and productive strategies to bring back manufacturing to the USA.

To critique Trump you need to be objective and consider what is the most optimal given the constraints he is facing in the present circumstances.
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Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:11 am

Mowk wrote:My wife and I are debt free, (I mention that because I live is a mutual property state, where both husband and wife are considered a share.) Have been way before Trump took office. We owe money to no one, save for our governance, which is consistently doing less for more. Income is sufficient to cover cost. Has been, way before Trump took office. We plan ahead, my wife and I, have never taken on a financial burden we were not prepared to cover because of economic fluctuations. I have never had to negotiate with banks for favor. In our sixty years we have weathered a lot from both parties.

So what is your definition of success exactly?

There are many perspectives to success which is a very loose term and is very relative.
Trump in general is a successful person given his net worth of 2-3 billion where along the way he has brought employment and financial success to many other people.
Whether he is happy or not, we don't know about him as much as we know about everyone else, but at least he is not clinically depress.

'Debt free' is not a measurement of success.
One can do nothing so as to be debt free.
To succeed in business [I am a reasonable expert on this] one cannot be totally debt free. Various types of debts are necessary to optimize against various financial constraints.
What is critical is to ensure one or the organization is in a net-asset position many times over while at the same time is being productive in a net-positive manner.
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Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:26 am

Mowk wrote:You have mentioned, in several posts that what Trump is doing with his rhetoric is playing a political game.

How does morality factor into politically playing a game in real life when a game isn't actually being played. (Is it really a game, and what does that say) Unless of course you believe the lives and experiences of children is just a game. I hope not.

In politics in the present circumstances, it is necessary for a politician to play the 'political game' but that must be within the rules of morality and ethics.
The reality of politics is the politician cannot be expected to meet every individual's needs and expectations but rather to meet the majority or the average.

As I had stated, politics in not morality & ethics proper. Politics is merely guided by morality and ethics in a parallel situation with is legislature and judiciary.

Morality and ethics cannot be governed but they manifest from the individual's mental conditions spontaneously. Thus moral and ethical improvements must happened within the individual's brain by the individual itself with the facilitation of various organizations. This is equivalent to improving a skill within a person culminating in the improvement of one's conscience of what is good that activates spontaneously.
The path to the above is via Philosophy-proper [theory and practical] not via politics.

At present there are great limitations to natural morality and ethics but there is an increasing trend within humanity toward the growth of spontaneous moral and ethics.
Thus given the current constraints and circumstances, Trump has done well relatively within 2+ years with an overall net-positive results.
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Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Mowk » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:38 am

A centrist isn't likely to describe either the left or the right as brainwashed. But a right leaner may describe it's opposite in that manner. I gather you are right of center.

Historically speaking, the right tends toward the philosophy of it's my way or the highway, if the right gives that grace. So which is more likely to string a black man up by a rope until dead. A right winger or a left? Which was more likely to engage in slave trade? Do you believe Epstein leaned left or right?

How would you access any major historical figure?
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Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:42 am

Prismatic567 wrote:Trump has done well relatively within 2+ years with an overall net-positive results.


No. Again. Trump has inherited an economic and military bubble that even if he were the most evil genius or bumbling idiot ever, would be impossible to destroy in 4 years.
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Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:46 am

Mowk wrote:#-o #-o #-o

Even though we live frugally and have managed to save up something for retirement, It will likely not be enough, given the outrageous cost of health care, particularly, medicine, assisted living and nursing homes. Any sort of early retirement don't look like a viable option. Right now our cost for prescription medicine is over $470 a month, out of pocket. So no, Trump hasn't improved the outlook.

He holds his tongue for the N. Korean dictator, who is still launching missiles, and attempting to build nuclear bombs. Yeah, he has held his tongue, and hasn't accomplished anything but getting a "beautiful" letter. Good show.

Brainwashed by the left? I am the left, you say that like it's a bad thing. I do not find the right very forward thinkers. But I need a right hand. It would be utopian if the middle was the head that kept either hand in check and working together. We don't have a strong middle, and I don't see Trump striving towards any sort of center.

As I had stated, there is a million and one thing for the individual, group, country and humanity to deal with while facing great constraints.

If you have complains, just compare yourself to those in the second or third-world countries.
Universal medical healthcare for all [as proposed by Bernie and others] is not effective in the long run. What is critical is there must be at least primary health care for all.

Most important is for a government to instill, in very aggressively in a sustained effort, to motivate every one to be healthy and take care of their own health, i.e. prevention is better than cure. Unfortunately this is not done by most countries' government. The govts do make noise about such points but they are not consistent at all.
Look around you, every 7 out of 10 Americans are obese!

Trump like any other nation's leader cannot meet the specific needs of all individuals but he has to prioritize within the present constraints. Given the current circumstances and constraints, Trump has done very well relative to leaders of many other countries.

As reported the North Korea has only shot short range missiles. In was in the past but at present there is no statements from N. Korea on any intention to further their nuclear programs. If N. Korea changes their moves significantly, Trump will definitely follow and counter with his own change in stance in that political game.

On the left, there are the centrists, the progressive left, the regressive left and the extreme left. It would appear you are brainwashed and bewitched by the regressive left. If you are a centrist left, you would have at least a balanced view and acknowledge Trump's achievements while criticizing his weaknesses.
Last edited by Prismatic567 on Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:54 am

Mowk wrote:A centrist isn't likely to describe either the left or the right as brainwashed. But a right leaner may describe it's opposite in that manner. I gather you are right of center.

Historically speaking, the right tends toward the philosophy of it's my way or the highway, if the right gives that grace. So which is more likely to string a black man up by a rope until dead. A right winger or a left? Which was more likely to engage in slave trade? Do you believe Epstein leaned left or right?

How would you access any major historical figure?

I am from the East and I am not used to the concept of rigidly either right or left as in Western politics.
In such terms of Western politics [I don't prefer], my views can vary from middle-right to center to middle-left depending on the circumstance with the objective to optimize the results suited to my overall objectives toward perpetual peace and well being.

I believe Americans if they can, should abandon being in a pigeon-hole of either politically right or left. Rather they should focus on what is to be a good human being for the sake of the whole of humanity. This can be achieved via philosophy-proper that encompass the full range of positive knowledge and wisdom.
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Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:02 am

Ecmandu wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:Trump has done well relatively within 2+ years with an overall net-positive results.


No. Again. Trump has inherited an economic and military bubble that even if he were the most evil genius or bumbling idiot ever, would be impossible to destroy in 4 years.

How can you expect any one to change things overnight for the better.

Given whatever the existing negative situation and that prior to becoming president, I believe [based on assessing the pros and cons] Trump has been successful so far relative to his employment contract.
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Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Mowk » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:03 am

Debt free' is not a measurement of success.
One can do nothing so as to be debt free.


There are still a few cultures left that are succeeding without capitalism's heavy hand. Subsistence cultures. The are existing which is a success, and they don't have debt either. If you are still around to bitch, you have already achieve some measure of success. It seems degree's of hardship is the more appropriate question.

To succeed in business [I am a reasonable expert on this] one cannot be totally debt free. Various types of debts are necessary to optimize against various financial constraints.
What is critical is to ensure one or the organization is in a net-asset position many times over while at the same time is being productive in a net-positive manner.


But my wife and I have done something. We have saved for a future, if we get to experience it. We have cared a great deal for our environment. We are extremely concerned about our waste driven economy.

Perpetual peace? That's a spiritual thing. Me and mine or it and me are at peace, a few shakes along the way but their is an understanding between us. In the face of extreme circumstance a single man can find that peace.

If your notion of perpetual peace comes at the cost of killing everyone who doesn't agree with you, I'm not in.
Last edited by Mowk on Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Mowk » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:21 am

What has Trump accomplished for any second or third world county? He over exaggerates what the federal government contributed to Pueto Rico as assistance in the after math of hurricane Maria.
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Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:23 am

Mowk wrote:
Debt free' is not a measurement of success.
One can do nothing so as to be debt free.
To succeed in business [I am a reasonable expert on this] one cannot be totally debt free. Various types of debts are necessary to optimize against various financial constraints.
What is critical is to ensure one or the organization is in a net-asset position many times over while at the same time is being productive in a net-positive manner.


But my wife and I have done something. We have saved for a future, if we get to experience it. We have cared a great deal for our environment. We are extremely concerned about our waste driven economy.

Perpetual peace? That's a spiritual thing. Me and mine or it and me are at peace, a few shakes along the way but their is an understanding between us. In the face of extreme circumstance a single man can find that peace.

If your notion of perpetual peace comes at the cost of killing everyone who doesn't agree with you, I'm not in.


As I had stated 'success' is very relative to loads of perspective.
It is good you are successful in your own ways.

However, a President must achieved success that are transferable to the whole of the USA in a net-positive way. Trump's success qualify to meet that objective in an optimal way.

I am sure Trump would have concerns for the environment but he had to optimize within the present constraints. When the critical things are stabilize his government will focus on the environment.

IF??
It is only your ignorance and imagination that perpetual peace has to be achieved via killings or enforcement which would be a contradiction to the term 'peace'.
If any peace were to be established by force, killing and enforcement, that would at most temporary.

Note I mentioned the spontaneity of morality and ethics;

    Morality and ethics cannot be governed but they manifest from the individual's mental conditions spontaneously. Thus moral and ethical improvements must happened within the individual's brain by the individual itself with the facilitation of various organizations. This is equivalent to improving a skill within a person culminating in the improvement of one's conscience of what is good that activates spontaneously.
    The path to the above is via Philosophy-proper [theory and practical] not via politics.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:30 am

Mowk wrote:What has Trump accomplished for any second or third world county? He over exaggerates what the federal government contributed to Pueto Rico as assistance in the after math of hurricane Maria.

This is off topic.
If he had done for one or two such countries then he would be blamed for being bias and not helping the rest of other such countries in the world.
At least he had not done anything that is significantly negative to any other second or third world country like what Obama did in enabling IS to execute their atrocities in Iraq, Syria, Libya or what Nixon did to Vietnam in the 60s.

The topic is Trump is not 'nuts' but has performed well objectively in accordance his terms of employment so far in 2+ years into his presidential terms.
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Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Mowk » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:31 am

Like I said, I'm not in.

Note: I mentioned the spontaneity of morality and ethics;


But not originally, and I agree with your newly stated sentiment, I argued it in prior posts. And the law lags behind. Also argued in previous posts.

Thanks for sharing long enough and deeply enough for eyes to see it. We humans do glance.

You really don't know me, and I would like to know more of you. So just quit it with the idea you have to place me along a spectrum as brainwashed, I've already told you where I lie and will die, I am on the left of center. An artist and a dreamer. We can change memes but genes are better left to the cosmos. I still have a few punches left in me if you still want to fight. I'm "game".
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Re: Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts?

Postby Mowk » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:17 am

We have both already disagreed with the premise of the topic. So technically we have been off topic with much of what we've discussed. Trumps voter approval hits a high at 45%, still more Americans disapprove of his job performance. His term average is 40% approval.
Last edited by Mowk on Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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