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Re: Finally

PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:43 am
by Pedro I Rengel
I never felt about Nietzsche as a nut to crack. He only ever pointed out to me.

VO I did see as a nut to crack. And delicious it was. Plus it was a good way to try to reach to Capable's philosophic toes. What a goddamn machine. If the world got wind of a single of his whispers. Yeesh. That's ripped straight from the soil. I knew I couldn't address him straight at where he worked, but, through you, through VO, maybe we could somewhat converse. Like a tectonic intellect sitting at a park with a child, having genuine fun. And by God it did save my life to be able to say something above BANANA!!!! with another human being.

Re: Finally

PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:49 am
by Pedro I Rengel
Forgive me if my reaction to you, the one who gave us a home, to me, to Capable, was to try to liberate you from things that, listen, no human sees all of what another human sees, and well there's no shame in that. And making music is goddamn fun, and maybe you could use some notgiveafuckness. To remember. What selfishness truly means, what it's for.

Maybe it was a lowly miser trying to teach a Great Man something, I don't discount it. But hey, I gotta go with what my heart tells me. It's an offering, a gift, if you want it cool, if not then there is no contract broken.

Re: Finally

PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:06 am
by Pedro I Rengel

Re: Finally

PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:59 pm
by Fixed Cross
Reverence, evil good brother. For philosophy above politics, for the good place that Capable and I built... Reverence for your own. That's all this was about. Without it, the world is bleak, empty, run by maggots and marxists.

Re: Finally

PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:16 pm
by Fixed Cross
All that is not an expanative demonstration of "world" as unfolding the inner sensitivities of perspectival agon, which are comprehended to us not in speculation or thought, but as being, namely, as wanting and desiring and aiming and anticipating, and all these apprehensive elemental experiences, which we call valuing when we are deliberately neutralizing our own valuing of that valuing when we are being 'objective' which simply means dispassionate and our for reliable results, when we set some rigorous standards for ourselves (it is still subjective but takes itself seriously as the error that must be understood as itself a being, for it to relate to being, let alone correct itself by it to its qualities and measure) -- all that is weakness.

Re: Finally

PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:40 pm
by Fixed Cross
DP

Re: Finally

PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:40 pm
by Fixed Cross
Advice for all politicians - don't show - tell. Tell how, tell why, but never when. When is not in your hands, why entirely is and how to an extent, and the very fact of opposition offers the chance of gaining honour, which is what remains in mens minds and hearts effortlessly, is what showcases 'integrity' from the skies into the cave and makes it known to the ... them, they, it, "us" - the lesser. All who lack integrity.

God is a concept, but it was always considered abstract. Non-empirical. But how in the hell could god be anything other than the most empirical facts of life?
How in Hell indeed.

Christ is the transfiguration of the spirit and in as far as he went we are in his debt. But what remains is the descent of man into matter voluntarily. Nietzsche announced it, going down and will to power - but now, we are in the valley, where Nietzsche is true but no instrument - and we must go up. Ascend, not look down on man and laugh, and congregate with truth on mountaintops and distant shores, but ascend as truth.

These "we" are far and few, willing and aware, or maybe we are many! Who knows? Only on the rise does the rising-lording which is becoming know itself and thereby births itself as a being. Knowledge is power because knowledge is being - that which is not primarily discernible as flux. Illusion or Maya? No, the machinery of the universe. So in this machinery rises the figurehead, the mediator between power-as-such and want of power - this mediator is the will to power. The image, on account of which being comes out of its its hiding.

Re: Finally

PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:07 pm
by promethean75
All that is not an expanative demonstration of "world" as unfolding the inner sensitivities of perspectival agon, which are comprehended to us not in speculation or thought, but as being, namely, as wanting and desiring and aiming and anticipating, and all these apprehensive elemental experiences, which we call valuing them we are deliberately neutralizing our own valuing of that valuing, when we are being 'objective'


'agon', sure. before all else anything existing must first perservere and hold its mass together. this is anthropomorphic language but it must be used to get this point. these not-yet-biological physical entities are not 'valuing' when holding together their mass. this is simply an expression of the natural forces at work. they are not what they are because of 'valuing', because being all encompassing, there is nothing that is not valuable, nothing that 'could have been better than it was', nothing that is 'more important' than something else, and therefore the term 'value', here, is meaningless.

once these entities arrange into biological and organic sentient beings, the physical and chemical forces are formed into more complex orders which require lower orders of arrangement (atomic, sub-atomic) to maintain their relative statis, in order to function. but here it is still 'war', still struggle; being more complex, there is an increase is vulnerability... more can go wrong... but there is still no valuing going on despite the increased possibility of system failure.

'value' simply does not exist outside of its use as a concept to describe the behavior of a language-sharing animal. without all these components in place, value won't exist. what it means won't exist.

but being that 'agon' is that fundamental beginning state of any unity in system... especially the biological... think of the effort a cell must make to maintain its cellular wall barrier from external bodies... it must ultimately give way to a contract between individual warring entities that find themselves working together to compose some greater whole. this, at a meta-biological level is the meaning of 'objective'. there is no 'neutralization' of the 'objective', as you put it. in fact, these higher orders or organization give structure to the objective, which is nothing more than information exchange... information about physical processes that change at a slow enough rate to still be predicted, or rather, anticipated. again, anthropomorphic language here, but necessary. it's the only way to describe these processes as if they were valuing... but still they are not. not yet. antibodies are not produced by the cell because it senses danger and values its life... but because a chemical trigger automatically begins the production of such. strange that it works this way, and mysterious, but this isn't a discussion about intelligent design or irreducible complexity.

at the level of complexity that brings about intelligent creatures such as ourselves, there is a tremendous degree of 'objectivity' because the amount of information and exchange is much greater than that at the lower levels of complexity and order. the fact that a organism this advanced can hold itself together (at a cellular level), and be consciously aware of its environment which is relatively 'stable' enough to be repetitious and predicted, means the change of information frequency is incredibly slow. when this is slow enough, you get what might as well be called objective conditions. these are the circumstances that are what they are regardless of how the organism interprets its environment. this information/feedback is present and is being processed without the slightest recourse to 'subjective' experience.

and what we highly complex creatures call 'value' is a feature that's existence comes so later on in this hierarchy of innumerable processes that it might as well be called epiphenomenal... and yet here you are declaring it's the genesis of all being. you couldn't be more wrong, but i understand why making this error in reasoning is so easily done.

if the final verdict is, you think you're on to something, or think you've come up with a unique philosophy (VO) never before conceived (or thoroughly dealt with already)... i say go for it. all that matters is that you believe you understand something meaningful and profound, and i'm not being sarcastic when i say this.

nietzsche's question 'why truth... why not lies' is answered, and has been answered clearly in practice for thousands of years. you don't need the truth. philosophy, in its business for 'truth', puts nothing in danger when its work is nonsense. it is both the hyper-activity of mind/language and a useless vestigial organ at the same time. what it can 'know' is already claimed by science, and what it can not belongs in poetry. the rest is language games and a few truisms in the structure of the logic of our grammar.

Re: Finally

PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:46 pm
by Pedro I Rengel
I guess the point is,

You wouldn't know about grams or logic or mass or atoms or information or natural forces etc,

If you didn't value them.

So is it that without those things value wouldn't exist, or exactly the opposite?

Mais la. Here I've gone and dialecticized both Nietzche AND the Fixed Cross.

Re: Finally

PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:16 am
by Pedro I Rengel
" philosophy, in its business for 'truth', puts nothing in danger when its work is nonsense."

Agred. Marxism is largely thrill-seeking.

"This is boring. Let's go fuck things up."

And schop was like "boring?

This is why I'm depressed."

Re: Finally

PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:32 am
by Mowk
Chins up dudes. Slow and steady. It does matter a great deal. It matters what you are interested in and more what you are not. Bleak is the world to those without vision. See. Cast your enormous thinking potential on potential. Those that have given in have given up.

I had to come see what finally looked like. The opera ain't over til that fat lady has sung. Nothing has happened to prevent us from guessing again.

Shit, who the fuck dressed me in this silly cheerleaders outfit and super glued ruffled pom poms in my hands while I was passed out, it is quite odd they keep changing colors. Practical jokes are one thing but this goes too far.

Re: Finally

PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:02 am
by Fixed Cross
Pezer, a gram is a value, yes. Obviously. To measure one must hold a value standard, thus to discern one must first value.
But this not the real point, that was known to smart cavemen.

What he point is, is that to interact, thus to react, like an atom, and any quantum of will to power does, means to discern, and thus, to value, and that to persist means to discern in a certain, opportune way. Ive called this self-valuing but we might as well call it intelligence.

Re: Finally

PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:15 am
by Fixed Cross
Mowk wrote:Cast your enormous thinking potential on potential.

Yes, wise advice.

Re: Finally

PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:17 am
by Fixed Cross
Pedro I Rengel wrote:I guess the point is,

You wouldn't know about grams or logic or mass or atoms or information or natural forces etc,

If you didn't value them.

So is it that without those things value wouldn't exist, or exactly the opposite?

Mais la. Here I've gone and dialecticized both Nietzche AND the Fixed Cross.

Those things are valuings.

I guess if after 8 years even the outline of my elemental thesis hasn't been understood Im just too boring for the risk I ask that you take. In case you (or anyone) still want to consider taking that risk, I recommend you reread Nietzsche, or read some books you haven't read before, and pay close attention whenever he mentions value, valuator, valuing, etc. Some clouds might dissipate and reveal the sheer heights Im calling you out from.

Anyway, you, unlike certain other persons Ive been trying to seduce to thought, know what and to which degree you value, and respect (value) your valuing, even if you have not understood yet that it is your very existence.
If you would realize this your power would be virtually absolute. Perhaps that is why you haven't realized it.

It is a risky endeavour to understand me, especially for someone with some actual modicum of power. Capable is proof of that. For an ordinary person, understanding appears to simply mean liberation from depression.

Re: Finally

PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:09 pm
by Pedro I Rengel
I am virtually absolute, nigga!

Haha, I really liked that description.

Your recommendations are duly noted and sincerely acknowledged.

Re: Finally

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:32 am
by promethean75
You wouldn't know about grams or logic or mass or atoms or information or natural forces etc,

If you didn't value them.


i wouldn't know about these things if i wasn't taught what they mean, and the learning of these things precedes any understanding i might have of how and why they would be valuable. such knowledge doesn't become valuable until i put it to use... but i can't put it to use until i understand what these things mean.

'this is what a gram is, and this is valuable knowledge when you want to inform the dealer that you want x amount of smoke instead of y amount', etc.

hate to break it to ya, but all this talk about 'value' has stretched and twisted the word so much it has become almost unrecognizable. like a new magic word that can mean anything. not only that, i can't think of even one real, existential problem out in the world of biggsian 'conflicting goods' where a reading of VO by everyone involved would help them find a comprehensive solution. that's what i'm into; solving real problems, not theoretical problems between words and concepts in my head. hence my adoration for historical materialism. i can roll my sleeves up with that shit.

Re: Finally

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:28 pm
by Pedro I Rengel
"and the learning of these things precedes any understanding i might have of how and why they would be valuable."

Does it?

Re: Finally

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:32 pm
by Meno_
Pedro I Rengel wrote:"and the learning of these things precedes any understanding i might have of how and why they would be valuable."

Does it?


Yes and no. The line between learning and understanding is as thin or thick , as the assigned value of a relationship determines it. Where it is more substantial, the line is not a line at all, it has interpenetrable aspects. Lines distill into a literal argumentative subscriptions.

Re: Finally

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:36 pm
by Fixed Cross
Pedro I Rengel wrote:I am virtually absolute, nigga!

Haha, I really liked that description.

Your recommendations are duly noted and sincerely acknowledged.

Excellent.

Mowks comment, focus potential upon potential, is a wisdom Ive been ignoring for years now, trying to explain the makings of gold to puddles of decaying inedible mushrooms, as it were. This stupidity of mine was also part of what brought ruin to the Cave - if you remember - when I invited a certain deeply stupid person I don't feel like mentioning by name (it is such an ugly name) to the Pentad and convinced you to have high hopes for him. Im laughing out now at the sheer ridiculousness of my callous idiocy. But it wasn't funny then.

So perhaps I have finally come to the learning of a lesson - do not address the stupid.

Ill leave that dirty work too you! Hahaha.

Re: Finally

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:32 pm
by Pedro I Rengel
.

Re: Finally

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:10 pm
by Mowk
Ah, but where does one seek potential and where is it found, and what does it look like?

Re: Finally

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:13 pm
by promethean75
What kind of 'does it' was that?

The kind asked with an inquisitive raised eyebrow: 'ah young grasshopper, but does it?'

Or this kind: 'oh I hadn't thought about it like that. How simple. Duh.'

If the former, I'll answer 'yes' again later and make a little more effort to explain. If the latter, I'll answer 'yes' again and say 'did I stutter?'

Re: Finally

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:22 pm
by Mowk
I'm still looking, maybe someday I'll find it. Misguided, mistaken, misinformed and misinterpreted. I must have just plane missed that boat. Just eat the damn grasshopper and be done with it.

That would stop the grasshopper its guessing.

Re: Finally

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:28 pm
by Fixed Cross
Pedro I Rengel wrote:.

I read that, though. Both deleted tributes.

Re: Finally

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:32 pm
by Meno_