Capitalism has shown that it's war

For discussions of culture, politics, economics, sociology, law, business and any other topic that falls under the social science remit.

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat May 04, 2019 9:01 pm

Look, as long as the anti-socialists here are complaining about corporate and banking behavior, we can find something new, rather than just bleating the old sentences and playing our parts like it's all in the Bhagavad Gita and doesn't really mater.
Karpel Tunnel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1784
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby surreptitious75 » Sat May 04, 2019 10:29 pm

The problem with capitalism is that like all hierarchies it favours those at the top but this is a rule of nature not of man
Eradicating it is therefore not viable because whatever replaced it would just be another hierarchy by a different name
So modifying the existing system is the most practical option here because idealistic Utopian ideals dont work in reality
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious75
Thinker
 
Posts: 818
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:48 pm

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby Ecmandu » Sat May 04, 2019 10:40 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:The problem with capitalism is that like all hierarchies it favours those at the top but this is a rule of nature not of man
Eradicating it is therefore not viable because whatever replaced it would just be another hierarchy by a different name
So modifying the existing system is the most practical option here because idealistic Utopian ideals dont work in reality


Demonstrably false.

Read this thread (it's not too long yet)

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194939
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8172
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby surreptitious75 » Sat May 04, 2019 11:09 pm

Is direct democracy going to overthrow capitalism then Ecmandu ?
Do you think that those that benefit from it will let that happen ?
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious75
Thinker
 
Posts: 818
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:48 pm

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby Ecmandu » Sat May 04, 2019 11:57 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:Is direct democracy going to overthrow capitalism then Ecmandu ?
Do you think that those that benefit from it will let that happen ?


No. Contradiction is what women look for in a mating partner as one of the many sexual signals in the species.

Men will not give up sex to be logically consistent, except for me.

The women are going to have to change to end this tyranny on this plane of existence.

But women hate me.

By hating me, they bury their heads in denial and hate themselves.

The question is, will women change.

That's out of my hands.

As a transcendent human, I'm not required to stay in this earth. I'm doing it to be kind.

I'm not a free ticket though. My ability to send you to a 100% consensual reality depends on you.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8172
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun May 05, 2019 7:51 am

surreptitious75 wrote:The problem with capitalism is that like all hierarchies it favours those at the top but this is a rule of nature not of man
Eradicating it is therefore not viable because whatever replaced it would just be another hierarchy by a different name
So modifying the existing system is the most practical option here because idealistic Utopian ideals dont work in reality
This argument could be used against democracy, against the abolition of slavery, for eating the heads of our mates after sex, for war, for not giving medical treatment...and so on.
Nature has a very complicated set of hierarchies. I don't know if bacteria or humans are on top and in which contexts. Or worms.
You argument would also have worked, if it works, as an argument against ending feudalism or monarchies. We should just reform them, what are these colonies thinking with their ideas of democracy.
Further modern capitalism is idealistic and would have seemed that way to societies before its arrival.
Karpel Tunnel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1784
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby promethean75 » Sun May 05, 2019 9:31 pm

Is there something lower than contempt?


i dunno, but i have a natural proclivity to turn disorganized messes into well oiled machines. i guess the marxist in me is an archetypical extension of my abilities as a crew-leader, which i've been for quite some time. through my eyes, the world looks like seven billion disorganized mexicans who spend more time fighting and arguing with each other than getting anything done. what i see is a macrocosm of the microcosm i've been experiencing for decades, and it might as well be that kaufmann translation WTP book four chapter four master of the earth legislative instinct in me that lives and breaths here. i've done good to keep the archon in me quiet recently, but i cannot deny that it's still there. once in a while it gets out when i speak of global orders and stuff, and yeah, i understand it's all in a strange and unfamiliar language to most. this is why i'm quick to silence the voice again and continue telling jokes instead. everybody can understand a joke, so imma stick with what works.
promethean75
Thinker
 
Posts: 603
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:10 pm

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun May 05, 2019 9:57 pm

shoukders.
Last edited by Pedro I Rengel on Sun May 05, 2019 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pedro I Rengel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1646
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun May 05, 2019 10:05 pm

knickers.
Pedro I Rengel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1646
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby surreptitious75 » Tue May 07, 2019 6:12 am

Ecmandu wrote:
Contradiction is what women look for in a mating partner as one of the many sexual signals in the species

Men will not give up sex to be logically consistent except for me

The women are going to have to change to end this tyranny on this plane of existence

But women hate me

By hating me they bury their heads in denial and hate themselves

The question is will women change

The question is why are you so obsessed with them and why is your answer completely unrelated to the questions which I actually asked
You cannot restrict yourself to the relevant threads but now have to talk about them when the subject matter is something else entirely
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious75
Thinker
 
Posts: 818
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:48 pm

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue May 07, 2019 1:15 pm

Political discussions are just lovely false dichotomies and excuses for making angry finger pointing loyalty moves that do not address points made.

So many people seem to think pointing out that free will is very hard to justify is a defense against any criticism of arguments for determinism. Nope argument rest on their own merits.

It gets even sillier with politics: Here if one system is attacked, socialism or capitalism, so many people think that defending their choice is somehow miraculously done well by labeling their opponents or by attacking what both teams seem to think are the only two options or even meaningful terms.

Socialism has the floppier definition since it includes the option of merely meaning that government regulates industry. Well, by that definition the US has always been socialist and so has Europe. A corporate charter, which actually used to have some real meaning, gave privileges to corporations and could be revoked. Apart from a whole mass of other regulations and oversight over various industries.


Both definitions suffer nowadays because there are no countries anymore and further the corporations are not in countries.


We also cannot say that there is a limit on the degree of regulation, not with good old capitalist China chugging away without even the pretense of democracy and a mass of regulation (though also less regulation in many areas, ironically)

An honest discussion would look at what the problems are of each, rather than pointing fingers and saying that is worse, or these are the emotions you people have, as if that was remotely a defense of anything. Ad homs have their place but they shouldn’t be confused with rebutting criticisms of practical real world effects.

Yes, let’s all show our team loyalty. Keep the discussion very abstract as if all capitalisms are the same and have been over time and as if all socialisims are the same and have been over time.

Let’s not notice that today we have neither.

Let’s not consider that we are being handed a false dichotomy and someone is laughing as we find yet another way to hate other individuals who don’t have much power.
Karpel Tunnel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1784
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby surreptitious75 » Tue May 07, 2019 1:58 pm

I think one can easily conclude from an objective perspective that capitalism is vastly superior to communism

When Germany was not one country but two it was the capitalist West that was more successful than the communist East and significantly so too
This was why when the Berlin Wall came down in I989 some West Germans did not want to be integrated with their countrymen on the other side
And when it was up the majority of defections were from East Germans trying to ecsape communism not West Germans trying to escape capitalism

Capitalism is not perfect - no man made institution is - but it is still vastly superior to communism
Just as democracy is not perfect either but it is still vastly superior to all of its many alternatives

Utopia is an impossible ideal so the next best thing is to choose the least imperfect system - whatever it may be - political or economic
And through trial and error attempt to make that system as fair as possible while recognising that it will be an eternal work in progress

Frank Zappa once said that communism would never work because people like owning things - such a simple yet profound truth in those words
The irony here is that this includes so called communists as well - a true communist would be someone who doesnt like owning anything at all
Capitalism may be a dirty word to some - not me - but we are all capitalists whether we like it or not simply because we all like owning things
Until that desire is removed from the human condition - good luck with that - then capitalism will carry on existing regardless of anything else
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious75
Thinker
 
Posts: 818
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:48 pm

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue May 07, 2019 2:49 pm

Well, surreptitious, first you could respond to...
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=194884&p=2728060#p2727887

But also capitalism being better than communism is not really a response to criticisms of capitalism. It might be a kind of excuse, and one that assumes we can only have one of two systems and further it acts as a way of not addressing the problems, since it seems to say, in your version, Oh, well, there are problems but less than communism. And since the problems are not addressed - here in the thread for example - it is as if we must simply accept them.

and then in my response I made to your earlier post....
this is in part based on a very weak argument based on 'nature'
Karpel Tunnel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1784
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby promethean75 » Tue May 07, 2019 3:02 pm

Frank Zappa once said that communism would never work because people like owning things - such a simple yet profound truth in those words


Uncle Frankie was many things, but a philosopher he was not.

But who told you people can't own things in a communism? Rhetorical question; I know how the idea was put into your head.

Can I change that assertion to: people are not allowed to purchase, and therefore own, other people's labor? This is essentially what a private business is. A legal means to possess labor other than your own. And that's the only thing you wouldn't be able to buy in a Marxism proper. You can still own all the same crap you buy in the free market.
promethean75
Thinker
 
Posts: 603
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:10 pm

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby surreptitious75 » Tue May 07, 2019 3:18 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:
The problem with capitalism is that like all hierarchies it favours those at the top but this is a rule of nature not of man
Eradicating it is therefore not viable because whatever replaced it would just be another hierarchy by a different name
So modifying the existing system is the most practical option here because idealistic Utopian ideals dont work in reality

I will correct the middle line which now seems out of place

I think that eradicating capitalism is viable only if whatever replaces it is a significant improvement or maybe any improvement at all
I dont know of a radical alternative to capitalism that has yet to be tried so am somewhat sceptical but I support the idea in principle

I think the real problem with capitalism is not the principle but the application
I think it is therefore necessary to emphasise the distinction between these two

A more equitable distribution of wealth would make it more acceptable as a viable economic system
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious75
Thinker
 
Posts: 818
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:48 pm

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed May 08, 2019 12:42 pm

For the pro-capitalist crowd

How do we stop, what I think has already happened, corporations from having so much power over government and media and election finance that we have an oligarchy?

How do we deal with the particular threat of the surveillance monopolies like Google and Facebook, including dealing with their plans for the internet of things, which is essentially a Panopticon which they are planning to use not just for data collection to sell, but also for behavior modification and enforcement?
Karpel Tunnel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1784
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby barbarianhorde » Wed May 08, 2019 2:01 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:For the pro-capitalist crowd

How do we stop, what I think has already happened, corporations from having so much power over government and media and election finance that we have an oligarchy?

By electing Trump.

Seriously, that exactly what happened. A wrench in the cabals wheels.
Of course, as I said then, he has 40-60 trillion opposed to him, so he would either be killed or compromised, and it has been a miracle of bravery and intelligence how he has done so far.
But the 40-60 trillions are really doing their work.

How do we deal with the particular threat of the surveillance monopolies like Google and Facebook, including dealing with their plans for the internet of things, which is essentially a Panopticon which they are planning to use not just for data collection to sell, but also for behavior modification and enforcement?

If we had an answer to that, we would not be living under fascism but under a benign form of capitalism.

Capitalism is simply what will always endure. It is not an ideology but the reward system of nature herself, where the combination of creative genius, exorbitant effort and determination is rewarded. It harbours all ideologies.
It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed.
~ Владимир Ильич Ульянов Ленин

THE HORNED ONE
User avatar
barbarianhorde
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2042
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:26 pm

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed May 08, 2019 6:01 pm

To the corporate monopoly question:

Make more money than them with less evil products. Daunting, I know, but doable. It would not be doable in, say, feudalism or communism, where what you could do about it is tremble in fear and thank God for your limbs.
Pedro I Rengel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1646
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed May 08, 2019 8:49 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:To the corporate monopoly question:

Make more money than them with less evil products. Daunting, I know, but doable. It would not be doable in, say, feudalism or communism, where what you could do about it is tremble in fear and thank God for your limbs.
Is this your plan? How's it going? Me personally, I do work very hard, and right now in a creative area I get paid for. Doesn't put me up in Google's gnp.

Got any workable solutions.

And the internet of things is coming and they will know every single gesture you make. They will know about how you take care of yourself, where you stop to get a snack. And everyone will be hooked in from an early age.

The capitalists are right now heading us for a smily dystopia the Stasi could only have dreamt of.

Again, I recommend The Age of Surveillance Capitalism.
Karpel Tunnel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1784
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed May 08, 2019 8:54 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:By electing Trump.

Trump freed Google. He allowed them to monotize. Maybe he is fucking with the other elite on some issues, but as far as Google and facebook and Amazon, he is setting them free. And they are much more powerful than most countries. Read the book I mentioned above to Pedro.
They were already able to stop government intervention in the way they are monitoring our lives. They are moving forward now into behavior modification, and getting services ready for contractual enforcement for corporate customers. Like online cars which your bank can shut off if you are late on payments, which your insurance company will monitor to see what level your insurance should be. Telemetry will track where you go to eat, so your health insurance can set rates. Everything will be a camera and an audio pick up. They will be selling all your data and able to sense everything. And Trump made this easier. That's why when you Google now, you get products first. He is either ignorant about them, which would be a huge ignorance, or he does not care.
Karpel Tunnel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1784
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed May 08, 2019 10:21 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Pedro I Rengel wrote:To the corporate monopoly question:

Make more money than them with less evil products. Daunting, I know, but doable. It would not be doable in, say, feudalism or communism, where what you could do about it is tremble in fear and thank God for your limbs.
Is this your plan? How's it going? Me personally, I do work very hard, and right now in a creative area I get paid for. Doesn't put me up in Google's gnp.

Got any workable solutions.

And the internet of things is coming and they will know every single gesture you make. They will know about how you take care of yourself, where you stop to get a snack. And everyone will be hooked in from an early age.

The capitalists are right now heading us for a smily dystopia the Stasi could only have dreamt of.

Again, I recommend The Age of Surveillance Capitalism.


You aksed.

Don't bitch and moan at me if you don't like the answer.
Pedro I Rengel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1646
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby barbarianhorde » Thu May 09, 2019 11:07 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
barbarianhorde wrote:By electing Trump.

Trump freed Google. He allowed them to monotize. Maybe he is fucking with the other elite on some issues, but as far as Google and facebook and Amazon, he is setting them free. And they are much more powerful than most countries. Read the book I mentioned above to Pedro.
They were already able to stop government intervention in the way they are monitoring our lives. They are moving forward now into behavior modification, and getting services ready for contractual enforcement for corporate customers. Like online cars which your bank can shut off if you are late on payments, which your insurance company will monitor to see what level your insurance should be. Telemetry will track where you go to eat, so your health insurance can set rates. Everything will be a camera and an audio pick up. They will be selling all your data and able to sense everything. And Trump made this easier. That's why when you Google now, you get products first. He is either ignorant about them, which would be a huge ignorance, or he does not care.

Wait wait. You make a living doing something creative and... you're complaining?

That says it all.
This is so brutally naive I am stunned.
It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed.
~ Владимир Ильич Ульянов Ленин

THE HORNED ONE
User avatar
barbarianhorde
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2042
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:26 pm

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby barbarianhorde » Thu May 09, 2019 11:17 am

Modern western-born socialists never came into smelling distance of even the mildest earthly hardship. They are so completely oblivious of the privilege they were given at birth that nature herself is blushing in embarrassment.

Rhetorics aside, google has been a paid catalogue for well over a decade, if you wanted to appear in it with your company in 2008, you had to pay for ads as well. In 2015, my phones illicit voice recognition was already producing ads about most things I was talking about in its vicinity. I guess Trump must be good friends with dr Emmett Brown.
It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed.
~ Владимир Ильич Ульянов Ленин

THE HORNED ONE
User avatar
barbarianhorde
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2042
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:26 pm

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Thu May 09, 2019 11:34 am

barbarianhorde wrote:Wait wait. You make a living doing something creative and... you're complaining?

That says it all.
This is so brutally naive I am stunned.
Let me know if you care to actually put that in an argument form and/or respond to my post.

Are you actually saying that since I make money from creative work, I should not give a shit about totalitarian trends? about a panopticon that is much more in place already than peopel realize? the way children are being made into addicted zombies? I mean, if you aren't willing to actually make an argument - I know, I guess it could be seen as scary - I have to guess at the above.

Hey, look, if you have some shit job, I'd feel sympathy. I worked hard but I also had some luck too. If you think Trump is going to make it easier for you to not have a shit job, good luck. If you have a decent job that matches your skills and interests, then why the fuck do you complain about left policies?

I mean seriously, come on, make some sense.

And, in case, this for some reason needs to be said, I wasn't complaining about having creative work.
Last edited by Karpel Tunnel on Thu May 09, 2019 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Karpel Tunnel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1784
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: Capitalism has shown that it's war

Postby barbarianhorde » Thu May 09, 2019 12:06 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
barbarianhorde wrote:Wait wait. You make a living doing something creative and... you're complaining?

That says it all.
This is so brutally naive I am stunned.
Let me know if you care to actually put that in an argument form and/or respond to my post.

Are you actually saying that since I make money from creative work, I should not give a shit about totalitarian trends? about a panopticon that is much more in place already than peopel realize? the way children are being made into addicted zombies? I mean, if you aren't willing to actually make an argument - I know, I guess it could be seen as scary - I have to guess at the above.

Hey, look, if you have some shit job, I'd feel sympathy. I worked hard but I also had some luck too. If you think Trump is going to make it easier for you to not have a shit job, good luck. If you have a decent job that matches your skills and interests, then why the fuck do you complain about left policies?

:mrgreen:
Yeah, I knew I was gonna hit a nerve.

You're a person deeply privileged by your capitalist environment. But you want to feel like a victim.
It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed.
~ Владимир Ильич Ульянов Ленин

THE HORNED ONE
User avatar
barbarianhorde
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2042
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:26 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Society, Government, and Economics



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users