May we lie to the proletariat?

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A civilian may be justly served when a truth is kept from him by a knowing government.

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May we lie to the proletariat?

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:56 pm

Old news. Interesting question still in the air.

http://www.brasschecktv.com/videos/gove ... lying.html

Dallas Morning News

The Justice Department, the nation’s top law enforcement arm, had proposed formally allowing federal agencies to tell people requesting law enforcement or national security documents that those records didn’t exist, even if they did.

This had the unintended effect of bringing together right and left — libertarians, congressional Republicans and open-government groups — in protest. Thankfully, the Justice Department backed down late last week and said it would rethink the whole thing.

As it stands, if a federal agency decides that a requested document would fall outside the scope of the Freedom of Information Act, it can turn down the request and neither confirm nor deny the existence of such documentation. The so-called Glomar denial dates to a 1970s case when a newspaper reporter sought information about a CIA project to recover a sunken Soviet submarine.

The new proposal would have directed agencies to “respond to the request as if the excluded records did not exist.”

If that change seemed small, it wasn’t.

Congress amended FOIA in 1986 to address specific exemptions in which confirming the existence of records would compromise an ongoing criminal investigation or confidential informant or reveal classified information. What Congress did not do was allow federal agencies to make overtly false claims.

Ordinary citizens seeking government information would be far less likely to demand justification for withheld records that, as far as they knew, did not exist. Federal agencies would have to justify far fewer decisions to withhold such information.

This isn’t new, of course. Researchers have found memos from the Reagan Justice Department that advised such informal deception. But codifying it now seemed especially ironic under President Barack Obama, who promised “an unprecedented level of openness in government.”

It seems that telling some truth about some politicians has paid off for a businessman and his business community, the US - evoking I presume the fear of him telling even more truth, with he ha threatened to do in the campaign, but this isn't the same as being obliged to reveal the existence of identities - that gets pretty strange quick.
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Re: May we lie to the proletariat?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:51 pm

My gut reaction is that we should not hide stuff. I am not sure why it is 'the proletariat'. Stuff is hidden from other classes also.

I do think there can be good grounds to hide certain things.

But this must be a context where the regular abuse of' 'national security' etc. excuses never results in what should be serious jailtime or even the death penalty - since to me this kind of excuse often counts as treason. Someone who for political or personal reasons or just plain embarrassment or to protect careers, lies in this way to FOIA request, has committed a serious crime. Not just in the specific instance but because it damages trust at such a fundmental level. But Ican't think of anyone getting busted and getting serious time for these bullshit excuses.

In a context where people cover shit up with regularity for the wrong reasons and if ever caught are not punished...

I say, full transparency.
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Re: May we lie to the proletariat?

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:51 pm

I would agree, but I am not sure if I would if I were in the position to make these decisions.

In general a military mindset is one that is okay with secrets, with information getting scarce down the ladder, it enhance efficiency. Do we need military?
My answer is yes, but not because it is needed, but because it is there, in men, and needs to be controlled, organized to be a benefit rather than a chaotic societal violence. Sports do a lot to take this but the ultimate discipline is always going to be before death, which is the most basic fact of life. A military, deliberately limited existence is for many men a way to give shape to the given of their mortal nature; this is, I believe, deeper than any use value this or that party has for armed forces. The same goes for deliberate ignorance; it is a form of discipline. Religions origins are there in part as well.
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Re: May we lie to the proletariat?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:47 am

As long as gas stays cheap, and it's easy to live as an American from day to day, and I don't have to work hard to live a good life, then I don't care what the government does or what happens in the war zones etc.
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Re: May we lie to the proletariat?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:34 am

Fixed Cross wrote:I would agree, but I am not sure if I would if I were in the position to make these decisions.

In general a military mindset is one that is okay with secrets, with information getting scarce down the ladder, it enhance efficiency. Do we need military?
You could have a military and I think come up with justifications for all sorts of tactical information being secret. I understand why D- Day is not told to all the soldiers. But you could also show that people who hold stuff secret that was about something else get punished. You can still have secrets, there would still be BSer that got away with it,just as other crimes are never completely eliminated. But you can show that even people with a great deal of power, like presidents, will be convicted if they misuse the option, the population can have a generalized trust.
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Re: May we lie to the proletariat?

Postby Zero_Sum » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:47 pm

The working class only exists as a luxury or privilege of our elite existence. They should be satisfied and content with the scraps of their existence that we throw out to them from time to time.

Only ignorant, uneducated, and stupid malcontents questions otherwise.

They exist solely to serve their betters and need to learn humility in accepting that constant reality. They must learn a respect for obedience of authority to their betters or otherwise be removed from society permanently if they become too much of problem in becoming unmanageable.
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