The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

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The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Zero_Sum » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:10 am

Tonight I did something interesting in that I searched all throughout the internet for a place of socialist ideals, values, and thoughts on achieving a more socialist economy for our modern world. What I found was perplexing, daunting, and downright depressing. It would seem the only socialist movements around these days are ones that are either marxist or communist, sure there are plenty of democratic socialist movements also but their rank or file is filled to the brim of international marxists as well. It seems to me now that socialism as a movement has been completely hijacked by internationalists, marxists, and communists. I could not even find a single moderate socialist website, platform, or forum out there. Anymore it would seem that both capitalists and marxists have done an entirely thorough job of dividing the entire world carving it amongst themselves predominately. As for third position socialists like myself there is scarcely very little trace of us anywhere and I suspect this is due to censorship of the internet itself. As a minority of third position socialists we certainly have our work cut out for us concerning communication, organization, and expressing our message across to people around the world.

I've realized tonight just how very few of us are out there and it most certainly dawns on me.

Even more interesting is the message of a lot of these so called socialist movements I was observing, they're so focused on racial injustice, feminist issues, unlimited immigration, and pyrrhic victories of raising the minimum wage that none of their movements are even trying to illustrate in any real depth manner of socialist economics itself. I really do wonder just how many of them are controlled opposition. You know in order to have a socialist nation you need to illustrate and quantify the social mechanics of its economic structure. It's almost embarrassing if not saddening to see what modern socialist movements have degenerated into. You would think to yourself somebody somewhere would have an illustration or deep analysis of socialist economics as an alternative to modern capitalist ones but I could not find much at all. The capitalists much as I hate saying it have completely decimated socialist movements throughout the west not because they're smarter or better but because they have more representation in power and influence. Their ideological and economic propaganda is a well oiled machine which never sleeps that has almost completely destroyed all of their political opposition here in the west.

Any fight against the dominance of capitalism throughout the west is most certainly a high stakes uphill battle full of treachery, dominance, and risks. If a moderate socialist movement of course was to succeed not only would we have to fight against capitalists but also marxists as well that are equally organized internationally whose ideology is equally horrific. After tonight's activities I think that I have a better understanding of the problems ahead going into the future. It certainly has made me a bit more jaded which I didn't think was possible until now.
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:47 am

Bernie Sanders is a socialist. People called Obama one. They're everywhere man.

You have, in the past...switched from one political philosophy to another more often than most people that I know. I'm not sure that the level of nuance between some of these positions amounts to more than hair splitting. The best way to be sure you're making the world better for humanity, is to do the most that you can for the human that you have the best ability to impact...and that is yourself. Why so staunchly against capital? Has it crossed your mind that by participating in capitalism that you may have the best shot at living the best life that's available to you under the various choices that you have before you? What is it, exactly that makes you so adamantly against the idea of capitalism?
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby barbarianhorde » Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:48 pm

I feel it is so interesting now that Socialism can exist in the minds of the person without a reference to Marx. But Marx on the other hand is just the dude that posited Socialism.
Maybe there will be a Socialism where its members have kicked out Marx and just follow his doctrine without knowing. But they will still need money so there's that.
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Meno_ » Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:33 pm

We in the US have one of the highest standards of living anywhere. In other places like South East Asia, people are mired in poverty on an unimaginable scale. And yet, they have not elected socialism, excepting North Korea.

Under a aocialist cover, manipulators can capitalize on power much more effectively, and rob people blind using overt repressive tactics no one cares to oppose, or gulag for you. Its always been the same, and this is why socialism is a nice sounding word, and that's all it is, and ever will be.
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Zero_Sum » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:01 am

barbarianhorde wrote:I feel it is so interesting now that Socialism can exist in the minds of the person without a reference to Marx. But Marx on the other hand is just the dude that posited Socialism.
Maybe there will be a Socialism where its members have kicked out Marx and just follow his doctrine without knowing. But they will still need money so there's that.

Karl Marx didn't invent socialism as it existed well before he came onto the scene of history, he did however pervert and corrupt it almost irreparable to which it hasn't been able to recover since then. There was those that tried to revitalise and cleanse it of all its impurities in 1933 but as they say the rest is history.
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Zero_Sum » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:13 am

Meno_ wrote:We in the US have one of the highest standards of living anywhere. In other places like South East Asia, people are mired in poverty on an unimaginable scale. And yet, they have not elected socialism, excepting North Korea.

Under a aocialist cover, manipulators can capitalize on power much more effectively, and rob people blind using overt repressive tactics no one cares to oppose, or gulag for you. Its always been the same, and this is why socialism is a nice sounding word, and that's all it is, and ever will be.

No one is arguing communism here as far as I know and what I argue for is a socialist mixed economy that has some basic level of market forces at work but that strictly believes in collectively the public well being of its nation for all people which includes common people also.

A nation of one solidified mind, voice, and commonwealth of all it citizens to which prosperity can be enjoyed by all social classes of people relatively speaking.

All you capitalists can say what you want but it is obvious by any man or woman with any intelligence that this capitalist system is destroying and devouring itself. Sure communism was the first experiment to destroy itself and eventually capitalism also will catch up doing the same since neither system was sustainable in the long run to begin with. The destruction of capitalism is taking a bit longer than its opposite of communism but the end result will be the same.
Last edited by Zero_Sum on Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Zero_Sum » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:20 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:Bernie Sanders is a socialist. People called Obama one. They're everywhere man.

You have, in the past...switched from one political philosophy to another more often than most people that I know. I'm not sure that the level of nuance between some of these positions amounts to more than hair splitting. The best way to be sure you're making the world better for humanity, is to do the most that you can for the human that you have the best ability to impact...and that is yourself. Why so staunchly against capital? Has it crossed your mind that by participating in capitalism that you may have the best shot at living the best life that's available to you under the various choices that you have before you? What is it, exactly that makes you so adamantly against the idea of capitalism?


It's unsustainable in the long run that revolves around short term thinking of immediate profit or gratification. It revolves around military imperialism that endangers the entire planet with the proliferation of nuclear weapons. It revolves around a ridiculous assertion of infinite growth. These are just a couple of reasons why I oppose capitalism.

Bernie Sanders is a Jewish communist and Barack Obama for all his socialist rhetoric was actually a corporatist figure head with a black face.
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Mr Reasonable » Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:30 am

The macro/micro distinction is important here.

Be a capitalist who wants socialist outcomes for the world.
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Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby WendyDarling » Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:28 pm

What are some of the specific ways to achieve a comprehensive socialist movement...what would it look like more explicitly...what are its tenements?
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Meno_ » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:46 pm

Deleted - too presumptive and ponderous. How different things look when the ink dries.
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Meno_ » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:25 pm

WendyDarling wrote:What are some of the specific ways to achieve a comprehensive socialist movement...what would it look like more explicitly...what are its tenements?




Wendy, my only thought here is keyed in by the term 'affordability' some purist nations in Scandinavia are so prosperous , socially cohesive, that they can offer incredible social guarantees. But the US , a huge multiculturalism seems unlikely to foster specific kinds of social programs as sought for by progressives.
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Zero_Sum » Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:56 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:The macro/micro distinction is important here.

Be a capitalist who wants socialist outcomes for the world.

A social capitalist sounds a bit like an oxy moron, does it not? 8)
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Zero_Sum » Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:57 pm

WendyDarling wrote:What are some of the specific ways to achieve a comprehensive socialist movement...what would it look like more explicitly...what are its tenements?

I don't know yet to be honest, I am still trying to find that out in much contemplation.
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Zero_Sum » Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:58 pm

Meno_ wrote:Deleted - too presumptive and ponderous. How different things look when the ink dries.


Don't be afraid to express yourself here.
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Zero_Sum » Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:59 pm

Meno_ wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:What are some of the specific ways to achieve a comprehensive socialist movement...what would it look like more explicitly...what are its tenements?




Wendy, my only thought here is keyed in by the term 'affordability' some purist nations in Scandinavia are so prosperous , socially cohesive, that they can offer incredible social guarantees. But the US , a huge multiculturalism seems unlikely to foster specific kinds of social programs as sought for by progressives.

Yes, there in lies the rub of multi racial multiculturalism.
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby barbarianhorde » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:14 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:
barbarianhorde wrote:I feel it is so interesting now that Socialism can exist in the minds of the person without a reference to Marx. But Marx on the other hand is just the dude that posited Socialism.
Maybe there will be a Socialism where its members have kicked out Marx and just follow his doctrine without knowing. But they will still need money so there's that.

Karl Marx didn't invent socialism as it existed well before he came onto the scene of history, he did however pervert and corrupt it almost irreparable to which it hasn't been able to recover since then. There was those that tried to revitalise and cleanse it of all its impurities in 1933 but as they say the rest is history.

You mean slave revolt did exist, which is true. Byt socialism was in fact a Marxian creation from the opium pipe.
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby barbarianhorde » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:17 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:The macro/micro distinction is important here.

Be a capitalist who wants socialist outcomes for the world.

Capitalists focus on creating and inventing things. Zerosum wants to steal things from capitalists which is all socialism is, a negative to subtract from the positive of capitalism.
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Serendipper » Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:45 pm

A capitalist does not want even one regulation, so, therefore, one regulation makes the system socialist and now it's merely a question of where to draw the line on how much regulation is needed.

Regulations are always for the good of society, not the capitalist.

Capitalism is zero regulation
Socialism is greater than zero, but less than 100% regulation
Fascism and communism are 100% regulated.

If someone wants to argue the definitions, then show me a regulation that benefits the capitalist who believes the free market resolves everything. If that can't be done, then the definitions stand.

Now, do you want to eat food that is not inspected by the government? No? Then you're a socialist. So, essentially we are all socialists arguing about just how socialist we ought to be. I doubt anyone is *really* a capitalist.
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Meno_ » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:25 am

So all these arguments based on definitions of what party affiliations we have are basically for political rhetoric, in order to stretch out boring or displaced discussions, right?
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Mr Reasonable » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:24 am

Zero_Sum wrote:
Mr Reasonable wrote:The macro/micro distinction is important here.

Be a capitalist who wants socialist outcomes for the world.

A social capitalist sounds a bit like an oxy moron, does it not? 8)


No. A capitalist is someone who uses money to make money. A socialist is someone who wants to spend money to make society better. So you can invest and make money, and then build a shelter for the homeless.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Zero_Sum » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:42 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:
barbarianhorde wrote:I feel it is so interesting now that Socialism can exist in the minds of the person without a reference to Marx. But Marx on the other hand is just the dude that posited Socialism.
Maybe there will be a Socialism where its members have kicked out Marx and just follow his doctrine without knowing. But they will still need money so there's that.

Karl Marx didn't invent socialism as it existed well before he came onto the scene of history, he did however pervert and corrupt it almost irreparable to which it hasn't been able to recover since then. There was those that tried to revitalise and cleanse it of all its impurities in 1933 but as they say the rest is history.

You mean slave revolt did exist, which is true. Byt socialism was in fact a Marxian creation from the opium pipe.



Socialist Thinkers Before Karl Marx:

Robert Owens 1771-1858
Charles Fourier 1772- 1837
Pierre Joseph Proudhon 1809-1865
Louis Blanc 1811- 1882
Saint Simon 1760-1825


Versus


Karl Marx 1818-1883
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Zero_Sum » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:47 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:
Mr Reasonable wrote:The macro/micro distinction is important here.

Be a capitalist who wants socialist outcomes for the world.

Capitalists focus on creating and inventing things. Zerosum wants to steal things from capitalists which is all socialism is, a negative to subtract from the positive of capitalism.


Capitalism doesn't steal? :lol: 8)

Socialism doesn't seek to disrupt or lessen innovation just so you know.
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Zero_Sum » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:49 pm

Serendipper wrote:A capitalist does not want even one regulation, so, therefore, one regulation makes the system socialist and now it's merely a question of where to draw the line on how much regulation is needed.

Regulations are always for the good of society, not the capitalist.

Capitalism is zero regulation
Socialism is greater than zero, but less than 100% regulation
Fascism and communism are 100% regulated.

If someone wants to argue the definitions, then show me a regulation that benefits the capitalist who believes the free market resolves everything. If that can't be done, then the definitions stand.

Now, do you want to eat food that is not inspected by the government? No? Then you're a socialist. So, essentially we are all socialists arguing about just how socialist we ought to be. I doubt anyone is *really* a capitalist.

State centrally controlled capitalism does argue for a minimum of regulations, it's only delusional libertarians that argue for a zero regulatory environment.

All socialist governments argue for 100% regulation because as socialists we understand how corruption of private individuals work like with zero oversight, I just call that common sense.
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Zero_Sum » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:00 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:
Mr Reasonable wrote:The macro/micro distinction is important here.

Be a capitalist who wants socialist outcomes for the world.

A social capitalist sounds a bit like an oxy moron, does it not? 8)


No. A capitalist is someone who uses money to make money. A socialist is someone who wants to spend money to make society better. So you can invest and make money, and then build a shelter for the homeless.

There is this tiresome narrative that socialists are against trade, investments, labor, making money, working, or running businesses. It is all of course completely unfounded.

The caricature that capitalists create for socialists is a ridiculous one.

A socialist is an individual that desires to create a levelled playing field economically in society where all people have the opportunity to succeed in life and where they're all protected by government equally under law. This is of course much different from capitalists with their exclusive monopolies followed by a belief of exceptional entitlements where they basically don't give a damn whatsoever about a majority of people. This is why capitalism will fail because when you throw 75% of your population under the bus into ruin it is not a winning strategy of success for society collectively as a whole.
The temple mount will be rebuilt in Jerusalem and all the nations of the world will be ruled from there. All races, cultures, leaders, and nations will come to bow before the new messiah yet to come. All will come to know the chosen of God who refer themselves as Jews. For every Jew there will be a thousand goyim that will be their slaves as it was ordained by God. Every man, woman, and child will convert to Zionism.
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Mr Reasonable » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:48 am

Best chance you have at making society better is to live better yourself. If you don't think that competition is where the cream rises to the top, then what does cause it? Think about the accumulation of wealth necessary to research cures for disease and to build shelters and to fund programs for those who can't manage to take care of themselves. Who's gonna accumulate that wealth? Certainly not a bunch of participation trophy hippies.
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