The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby barbarianhorde » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:02 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:
Socialist Thinkers Before Karl Marx:

Robert Owens 1771-1858
Charles Fourier 1772- 1837
Pierre Joseph Proudhon 1809-1865
Louis Blanc 1811- 1882
Saint Simon 1760-1825


Versus


Karl Marx 1818-1883


No, no noNO
this can't be trueth!

U r RIGHT and I am WRONG

Holy hail what is going ons?


/

Turns out, Socialism is none other than philanthropic capitalism.


(some one still got to makes the money, before it is given away to the splendid poorly ones)
It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed.
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Zero_Sum » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:41 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:
Socialist Thinkers Before Karl Marx:

Robert Owens 1771-1858
Charles Fourier 1772- 1837
Pierre Joseph Proudhon 1809-1865
Louis Blanc 1811- 1882
Saint Simon 1760-1825


Versus


Karl Marx 1818-1883


No, no noNO
this can't be trueth!

U r RIGHT and I am WRONG

Holy hail what is going ons?


/

Turns out, Socialism is none other than philanthropic capitalism.


(some one still got to makes the money, before it is given away to the splendid poorly ones)



No, I'm pretty sure you're confusing philanthropic capitalism with tax evasions or tax write offs.

Is this another Fixed Cross account? Ironic hearing about capitalism from the ultimate trust fund kid.
"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-


"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
― Robert A. Heinlein


"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Zero_Sum » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:58 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:Best chance you have at making society better is to live better yourself. If you don't think that competition is where the cream rises to the top, then what does cause it? Think about the accumulation of wealth necessary to research cures for disease and to build shelters and to fund programs for those who can't manage to take care of themselves. Who's gonna accumulate that wealth? Certainly not a bunch of participation trophy hippies.


I have nothing against competition however competition taken to the extremes only hurts society as a whole. I am all about cooperative competition, at first glance that might seem contradictory but it isn't.

I assure you there is nothing hippie about my beliefs.
"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-


"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
― Robert A. Heinlein


"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Jakob » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:35 am

Zero_Sum wrote:
barbarianhorde wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:
Socialist Thinkers Before Karl Marx:

Robert Owens 1771-1858
Charles Fourier 1772- 1837
Pierre Joseph Proudhon 1809-1865
Louis Blanc 1811- 1882
Saint Simon 1760-1825


Versus


Karl Marx 1818-1883


No, no noNO
this can't be trueth!

U r RIGHT and I am WRONG

Holy hail what is going ons?


/

Turns out, Socialism is none other than philanthropic capitalism.


(some one still got to makes the money, before it is given away to the splendid poorly ones)



No, I'm pretty sure you're confusing philanthropic capitalism with tax evasions or tax write offs.

Is this another Fixed Cross account? Ironic hearing about capitalism from the ultimate trust fund kid.


Are you James S Saint now, spreading lies about my life like some resentful snake?
Ive already produced more value and done more responsible and lucrative labour than you can imagine.


As for the OP, I think barbarian horde was under the impression that you had read these authors.
Capitalism is naturally social. Tax evasion came into existence when lower class folks like yourself were given access to the mean to productions.
Socalism has failed.
"There is no such thing as a snail-king" - JP
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Jakob » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:44 am

Zero_Sum wrote:I assure you there is nothing hippie about my beliefs.

Hippies thrived on relentless competition, sexual and economic, which is how they came to dominate basically all industries except derivative banking. None of them were economic socialists. Don't even think you can be confused with them. They were pacifists, not fascists like you, and creative, rather than destructive like you.

What you're after is simple uncreative plunder based on numbers. But you're too late. Your kind has already leeched your country dry.



To be perfectly clear to the people reading this snakes thread, I have earned all money I ever spent and done it by enhancing worthy purposes, even if many were merely mildly worthy. And always Ive obstructed the people who payed me when they were doing something undignified, whether that meant I got fired or the company got destroyed, no matter, I don't compromise.

You are your work. If you convince yourself you have an identity separate of what you bring into existence, you are a non-entity.



Ive discovered to both my disgust and amusement (typical internet-engendered sensation) that there is a whole network of slaves talking about me in backrooms like bureaucrats from Brussels. I don't care what they think. But I will rectify their worst public lies.



Rather than a beneficiary, I am the type that builds other peoples careers. Half the time, the people I aim to exalt refuse to do the rudimentary labor, but when they worked according to my valuing of them, they have invariably become successful. I am never wrong about peoples powers. But versus their weaknesses I am often too mild in my judgment. I will change that;

I once recommended that you, Joker, become a novelist, but now that potential is wasted, compromised, tarnished by your fouler tendencies, your "politics". You will never be able to write a story that people want to read, anymore - youve lost your character, and with that, your style.
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Zero_Sum » Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:12 pm

Jakob wrote:
Are you James S Saint now, spreading lies about my life like some resentful snake?
Ive already produced more value and done more responsible and lucrative labour than you can imagine.


As for the OP, I think barbarian horde was under the impression that you had read these authors.
Capitalism is naturally social. Tax evasion came into existence when lower class folks like yourself were given access to the mean to productions.
Socalism has failed.
"There is no such thing as a snail-king" - JP


Ah, so James S Saint (may he rest in peace) came to similar conclusions? How about that.

I have been told by others here that you come from a rich family which I've always assumed to be true you being the globe trotter that you are. What kind of valued labor production have you done? I'm curious, please indulge my curiosity.

Capitalism is natural socially? Well that depends what side of the spectrum you fall under in the categorization of capitalism, are you a master or slave? Are you an exploiter or the exploited?

Being a slave, peasant, or serf I can assure you it is an unnatural lifestyle to be imposed on anybody.

Now some here might thump their chests and say that the master slave dynamic is only natural as it most certainly reoccurs all throughout history but then again what also reoccurs with that dynamic as well is revolution, insurrection, and whole entire societies that collapses when there are more outnumbering slaves than there are masters. Also, capitalism eventually destroys itself when the poor outweigh the wealthy especially in a market consumer society where vast majority of individuals have little to no disposable income. Without consumer spending concerning disposable income a consumer market comes to a grinding halt thereby collapsing afterwards. Any society where the poor are sixty percent or more of the population will collapse, it's as simple as that.

It's not the lower classes that evades taxes but instead is always the very wealthy that believe they shouldn't have to contribute anything to society. I am not sure what you meant or were referring to with your means of production comment.

Moderate socialism certainly has been defeated temporarily by both capitalism and communism, there's no doubt about that since such a defeat came shortly after world war II. Then in the 1980's communism collapsed with the fall of the U.S.S.R. where surviving marxists have only been able to find refuge in campus university environments. Now for my theory next capitalism also will collapse as an ideology and it will do so with the collapse of the United States. The United States is to capitalism what the U.S.S.R. was for communism. Moderate socialism will eventually make a comeback as its ideals lives on by many and with both communism or capitalism collapsed on themselves something else will have to fill the void.
"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-


"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
― Robert A. Heinlein


"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Meno_ » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:22 pm

I am very much afraid , and inclined to believe that tribalism , as the lowest rung of support in an anti-thetical way, may be that, which will be left, after all the debris is cleared up.

The reason I think this view is reasonable is, because in the current economic athmosphere of unrest, minimally organized social patterns fit best. Go for the sure thing, because unpredictability is way high of trying to peer into future outcomes of what reasonably could be expected.
Vested institutions serving these needs may fate best, and people may double down on things they are used to. Religiously, the trend will fund those things that offer maximum security with minimum investments of time and assets. People are more likely to dig in for the long haul that is still possible in the United States.

There are turbulent times ahead and the only thing keeping things at bay, is the very capital, infused by its own intricate mechanism to a Swiss watch detail, that can assure respect from the world as a whole, the market capitalization , the life blood .
Last edited by Meno_ on Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Zero_Sum » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:30 pm

Meno_ wrote:I am very much afraid , and inclined to believe that tribalism , as the lowest rung of support in an anti-thetical way, may be that, which will be left, after all the debris is cleared up.

Tribalism is necessary and at the end of the day can be curved under an effective leadership.
"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-


"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
― Robert A. Heinlein


"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie
User avatar
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Jakob » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:49 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:
Jakob wrote:
Are you James S Saint now, spreading lies about my life like some resentful snake?
Ive already produced more value and done more responsible and lucrative labour than you can imagine.


As for the OP, I think barbarian horde was under the impression that you had read these authors.
Capitalism is naturally social. Tax evasion came into existence when lower class folks like yourself were given access to the mean to productions.
Socalism has failed.
"There is no such thing as a snail-king" - JP


Ah, so James S Saint (may he rest in peace) came to similar conclusions? How about that.

I have been told by others here that you come from a rich family which I've always assumed to be true you being the globe trotter that you are. What kind of valued labor production have you done? I'm curious, please indulge my curiosity.

Capitalism is natural socially? Well that depends what side of the spectrum you fall under in the categorization of capitalism, are you a master or slave? Are you an exploiter or the exploited?

Being a slave, peasant, or serf I can assure you it is an unnatural lifestyle to be imposed on anybody.

Now some here might thump their chests and say that the master slave dynamic is only natural as it most certainly reoccurs all throughout history but then again what also reoccurs with that dynamic as well is revolution, insurrection, and whole entire societies that collapses when there are more outnumbering slaves than there are masters. Also, capitalism eventually destroys itself when the poor outweigh the wealthy especially in a market consumer society where vast majority of individuals have little to no disposable income. Without consumer spending concerning disposable income a consumer market comes to a grinding halt thereby collapsing afterwards. Any society where the poor are sixty percent or more of the population will collapse, it's as simple as that.

It's not the lower classes that evades taxes but instead is always the very wealthy that believe they shouldn't have to contribute anything to society. I am not sure what you meant or were referring to with your means of production comment.

Moderate socialism certainly has been defeated temporarily by both capitalism and communism, there's no doubt about that since such a defeat came shortly after world war II. Then in the 1980's communism collapsed with the fall of the U.S.S.R. where surviving marxists have only been able to find refuge in campus university environments. Now for my theory next capitalism also will collapse as an ideology and it will do so with the collapse of the United States. The United States is to capitalism what the U.S.S.R. was for communism. Moderate socialism will eventually make a comeback as its ideals lives on by many and with both communism or capitalism collapsed on themselves something else will have to fill the void.


Typical slave morality; see someone who leads a free existence, and you don't even think that he may have earned his way.

Extrapolate this to your socialist dreams and conclude: you can't ever see yourself earning your freedom. Some big cigar smoking daddy must be well faring your ass.

Precisely as I had imagined you.

I have worked so many jobs I lost count. Some of them very lucrative. My family is working class, but smart, made a decent business out of helping troubled kids achieve success, which I helped set up.

And no, James drew whole other absurd conclusions, based on his complexes.

Is he dead?
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Re: The Struggle For A Comprehensive Socialist Movement.

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:03 am

Jakob wrote:
Capitalism is naturally social.
Capitalism includes the idea of making money off capital rather than (or in addition to) labor. That is not naturally social, it is antisocial. It creates a class that is beyond labor that can siphon off the fruits of labor from the people who still must work. It also leads to that elite figuring out more ways to make money off of not doing labor - like the whole derivatives leading to 2008. It is a kind of reverse socialism, capitalism that it. A socialism for the few. Of course it is a complicated phenomenon with contradictions and areas where, yes, innovation and/or hard work can lead to wealthy or at least being fairly well off. Fiat banking is another lovely area of making money out of not doing labor. And it is not natural. Try explaining that one to tribal people used to bartering things that are the fruits of labor. And of course capitalism also undermines democracy in a myriad of ways. Not a problem per se for the post-Nietzscheans who abhor democracy, but what this does in practice is make it easier to create more ways of not doing labor and making money. It also allows the primary bombardment of propaganda - which creates the public's paradigms to be controlled by the class that has figured out ways to make money without labor. Take the combination of the materialist decadent marketing of products as solutions to self-identity, combined with the psychiatric/pharma model of human emotional suffering. This combination puts incredible money into the hands of one class, while dehumanizing the other classes. Post-Nietzscheans will tend to view this as fair game - even if they haven't bought all that bullshit themselves. Grab the minds of those children, then offer them a solution to the suffering creates by those now fucked up minds. A tax on those who can still feel.
Socalism has failed.
What hasn't failed? But I see no clear binary socialism here and capitalism there. Today's capitalism has many socialist features, not just the one's siphoning money up to the non-laboring elite, but the free public school system that enhances the elite's needs, both directly through creating cog labor illsuited to important decision making, but also through jamming paradigms into those children that suit corporate needs. At taxpayer's expense. That is, socialism.
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