Accusations alone prove Nothing

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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby Serendipper » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:14 am

Silhouette wrote:
Serendipper wrote:Silhouette may believe I'm conservative.

Nah, you actually seem like a decent thinker - you couldn't be conservative ;)

:lol: =D> I had a good laugh at that

I was merely basing that probability on the gun thread where you may have concluded I'm conservative because I defend gun rights, but I'm now relieved to learn that those odds were poorly calculated :)
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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby URUZ » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:32 am

"Just be yourself, and to hell with what people think."


^ Exactly.


I stopped giving a fuck about what anyone else thinks about me a long time ago. Anyone who doesn't like me as I am can go fuck off and I am better for it.
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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby URUZ » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:34 am

My own radical honesty and not giving a fuck is a very nice litmus test of others. Saves me a lot of time and effort not having to sort through the shit.
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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby Serendipper » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:04 pm

Gloominary wrote:Serendipper

You said "According to statistics mainstream liberals like to use".

]Why use the qualifier "progressive"?

Because it's systemic.

This isn't just an isolated phenomenon, it's part of a broader political agenda called progressivism, which's at least partly if not wholly anti-white, anti-Christian and anti-male.
Progressivism turns Nazism on its head, inverts it.
Non-whites are good, whites are bad, atheists or matriarchal pagans are good, monotheists or patriarchal pagans are bad, religion is bad, spirituality is good, women are strong, men are weak, the rich and powerful are bad, the poor and weak are good, children are born good, parents and culture corrupts them, civilization is bad, nature is good and so on.
Now it's an ideology, no ideology is perfect.
When it comes to socialism and environmentalism, I'm mostly on board, altho I have my own vision of how, and to what extent they should be implemented.

True, progressivism does seem an entity. Although, that's what the progressives say about the white men. And that's what the nazis say about the jews. Men say it about the feminists.

The Jews are an entity.
The Nazis are an entity.
The white men are an entity.
The progressives are an entity.

So ideologies are personified into entities and there is probably some evolutionary advantage for doing that since it's better to assume the rustling leaves is a lion stalking us rather than just the wind.

Nazism was a return to traditional values in a modern economic, scientific and technological context, where as progressivism, as the name implies, was new.
However, I suspect there have always been progressive currents and undercurrents in culture. Christianity was progressive in some respects before it was politicized by Rome.

Well, progressivism is a natural consequence of prosperity because when the desperate struggle for food and shelter is behind us, we can focus on other sources of pain and truth. So when life becomes too easy, people find new ways to complain: before, it was starving in the street, but now it's having hurt feelings that's the big deal.

Progressivism is as old as prosperity and generally precedes the fall of empires. Check out feminism and the fall of rome https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/12 ... l-of-rome/ Look into the Weimar Republic (discounting WWI effects) and see the condition that enabled the rise of Hitler. Or just accept it as sensible if you need no convincing since strong values build strong societies which engender prosperity which causes people to question the continuing need for those strong values and that precedes the erosion of prosperity until it falls apart and someone rises from the debris once again with strong values to restart the cycle.

Progressivism came long after conservatism, and after the capitalist, liberal, socialist and fascist revolutions of the early modern and modern epochs.
economically it originally allied itself more with socialism than capitalism, but today it's less concerned with economics, and if anything has allied itself more with capitalism than socialism.

Yes, I see what you mean. If they can't control the gov, then fine, they'll control private industry and that's even better because who can question Dick's right to choose not to sell the AR15? Hey, private industry can do what it wants and not only are the conservatives forced to support their own disarming despite the cognitive dissonance of on one hand supporting freedom of their disarmers and on the other desiring to own guns, but they couldn't do anything about it anyway since since private industry isn't put up to a vote. Try arguing with a capitalist about declaring google a public utility and suddenly the "deplorables" are totally defending their enemy; it's hilarious!

Btw, did you see: UC Berkeley: Saying "I'm Not Racist" Is Racist

https://academicaffairs.ucsc.edu/events ... _11_12.pdf

Wth? How can anyone not be afraid to talk???
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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby Serendipper » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:08 pm

Gloominary wrote:Perhaps the key is to continually postconceptualize (empiricism), rather than preconceptualize (dogmatism), or not conceptualize at all (philosophical skepticism/zen).

I never thought of it like that. Thanks!
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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby URUZ » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:08 pm

Hahaha yeah exactly. "You are so racist that you cannot even mention how you are not racist! How dare you try to claim to not being racist, that proves you are so racist!"

We live in the Orwellian madness now.
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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby URUZ » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:10 pm

"Wth? How can anyone not be afraid to talk???"


Making you afraid to talk is the entire point. This is what tyrants do.
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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby Serendipper » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:12 pm

UrGod wrote:"Just be yourself, and to hell with what people think."


^ Exactly.


I stopped giving a fuck about what anyone else thinks about me a long time ago. Anyone who doesn't like me as I am can go fuck off and I am better for it.

How does one do that though? Is it a realization of futility? Or is there something I can practice? How do you come to a place called "don't care"?
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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby URUZ » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:15 pm

Serendipper wrote:
UrGod wrote:"Just be yourself, and to hell with what people think."


^ Exactly.


I stopped giving a fuck about what anyone else thinks about me a long time ago. Anyone who doesn't like me as I am can go fuck off and I am better for it.

How does one do that though? Is it a realization of futility? Or is there something I can practice? How do you come to a place called "don't care"?


By necessity. In my experience anyway, you simply have no choice left because you are surrounded by so much shit and death and nonbeing trying to value you in its own terms, holding you down, sucking the life out of you... eventually you reach a point where you either keep letting that happen and die, or you stop letting it happen and live.

For myself, it became an addiction. Once I realized how it feels to be myself and not prioritize the silly nonsense and totalitarian demands made on me by others, I was hooked. This is being, this is freedom, this is existence. Be yourself, because you will attract other people who are also being themselves. The truly great people will respond to you and you will be drawn together with them, while the shit people will fall away from your life.
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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby Serendipper » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:17 pm

UrGod wrote:Hahaha yeah exactly. "You are so racist that you cannot even mention how you are not racist! How dare you try to claim to not being racist, that proves you are so racist!"

We live in the Orwellian madness now.

It's so ridiculous that how can anyone take it seriously? Imagine 20-30 yrs ago having someone spout such silliness.
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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby URUZ » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:22 pm

Serendipper wrote:
UrGod wrote:Hahaha yeah exactly. "You are so racist that you cannot even mention how you are not racist! How dare you try to claim to not being racist, that proves you are so racist!"

We live in the Orwellian madness now.

It's so ridiculous that how can anyone take it seriously? Imagine 20-30 yrs ago having someone spout such silliness.


It is a rabbit hole, looking into all this shit and how it has come about so quickly. And seeing where it is going. Not very healthy because so depressing. And not much you can do about it.

I've done that work, enough to satisfy myself in the truth of things. Such work is a test of strength, and of one's own character because you must do it, must wade through these putrid lowly truths because somehow they have come to determine much of the world we happen to live in. But after you do the work long enough you no longer need to, you can free yourself to better things.

I will always fight for truth and freedom, in every way possible. But there is no reason to keep swimming in the shit, and in fact we fight far better when we don't do that. This is why I do not talk to leftists anymore.
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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby Serendipper » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:24 pm

UrGod wrote:
Serendipper wrote:
UrGod wrote:"Just be yourself, and to hell with what people think."


^ Exactly.


I stopped giving a fuck about what anyone else thinks about me a long time ago. Anyone who doesn't like me as I am can go fuck off and I am better for it.

How does one do that though? Is it a realization of futility? Or is there something I can practice? How do you come to a place called "don't care"?


By necessity. In my experience anyway, you simply have no choice left because you are surrounded by so much shit and death and nonbeing trying to value you in its own terms, holding you down, sucking the life out of you... eventually you reach a point where you either keep letting that happen and die, or you stop letting it happen and live.

So it's realizing futility then. The faster one can get to the point of realizing that caring is futile, the sooner he can get on with life. Then it would seem the answer is to care obsessively until I either die or finally break. I wonder why I can't just cognitively decide to stop caring. Maybe because I'd be desiring to stop desiring and now I'm on the Buddhist dialog.
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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:25 pm

Gloominary wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:
A woman, or man who lies about being raped, is just as bad as a rapist, they're every bit as worthy of our contempt and wrath, and they deserve to go to jail for many, many years.

Woah! I disagree that they are the same and deserve the same punishment. The liar should be publically shamed and threatened with jail time for any re-occurant behavior, but they are not culpable for the actions of others who do not wait for the guilty verdict before they trash someone's life due to that lie.

If you rape someone, you damage, or destroy their lives.
If you publically accuse someone of rape in todays culture, you damage, or destroy their lives.
It's slander, it's criminal, it's grossly negligent/sadistic behavior, and needs to be treated with the utmost seriousness.

If someone's caught making something that serious up, whether it's out of envy, jealousy or spite, for fame, fortune or sympathy, I have no sympathy for them.
They're a sick, demented freak, and they should be thrown in prison.

You are reacting emotionally, dismissing my point. The physical attack and violation of rape is not the same as badmouthing someone with a lie. I don't disagree that the liars should suffer, my beef is with your equating the two as if they are one in the same when they're not. My reaction is the same as I had with Carleas equating racism with murder in terms of contemptability. If murder is abhorrent due to it being the most heinously damaging crime, racism cannot actually be argued as equally abhorrent but rather something less detestable, removing it from the top of the same category. My beef must be with the way people use adjectives to align two disparate terms onto the same ballfield. It's the same with the leftists who scream Nazi at people who wish to protect their national borders, the way they misequate labels and the punishment that follows.

Has there ever been a more accusatory/confrontational time in history where a mere statement changes people's lives so dramatically? It's like the Salem witch trials in some ways.
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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby URUZ » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:26 pm

UrGod wrote:"Just be yourself, and to hell with what people think."


^ Exactly.


I stopped giving a fuck about what anyone else thinks about me a long time ago. Anyone who doesn't like me as I am can go fuck off and I am better for it.

Serendipper wrote:
UrGod wrote:
Serendipper wrote:How does one do that though? Is it a realization of futility? Or is there something I can practice? How do you come to a place called "don't care"?


By necessity. In my experience anyway, you simply have no choice left because you are surrounded by so much shit and death and nonbeing trying to value you in its own terms, holding you down, sucking the life out of you... eventually you reach a point where you either keep letting that happen and die, or you stop letting it happen and live.

So it's realizing futility then. The faster one can get to the point of realizing that caring is futile, the sooner he can get on with life. Then it would seem the answer is to care obsessively until I either die or finally break. I wonder why I can't just cognitively decide to stop caring. Maybe because I'd be desiring to stop desiring and now I'm on the Buddhist dialog.


It is because this isn't merely a cognitive "choice" you can make, it has to be a deeply felt, instinctive change. You cannot think this into being. You are right, you will need to push this to the absolute excess point of dying or finally breaking; only at that point will you finally learn which way it will go, must go, for you.
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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby Serendipper » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:28 pm

UrGod wrote:
Serendipper wrote:
UrGod wrote:Hahaha yeah exactly. "You are so racist that you cannot even mention how you are not racist! How dare you try to claim to not being racist, that proves you are so racist!"

We live in the Orwellian madness now.

It's so ridiculous that how can anyone take it seriously? Imagine 20-30 yrs ago having someone spout such silliness.


It is a rabbit hole, looking into all this shit and how it has come about so quickly. And seeing where it is going. Not very healthy because so depressing. And not much you can do about it.

I've done that work, enough to satisfy myself in the truth of things. Such work is a test of strength, and of one's own character because you must do it, must wade through these putrid lowly truths because somehow they have come to determine much of the world we happen to live in. But after you do the work long enough you no longer need to, you can free yourself to better things.

I will always fight for truth and freedom, in every way possible. But there is no reason to keep swimming in the shit, and in fact we fight far better when we don't do that. This is why I do not talk to leftists anymore.

Well, I suppose it must come to pass because: strong men make good times, etc, etc I'm sure you know the rest. It's a cycle and there's not much we can do about it other than have some laughs I reckon.
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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby URUZ » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:32 pm

Yep.


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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby Serendipper » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:35 pm

UrGod wrote:It is because this isn't merely a cognitive "choice" you can make, it has to be a deeply felt, instinctive change. You cannot think this into being. You are right, you will need to push this to the absolute excess point of dying or finally breaking; only at that point will you finally learn which way it will go, must go, for you.

Yes, I'm sure you are completely right. That's what William Blake meant when he said "A fool who persists in his folly will become wise." For instance if one believed the earth were flat, he'd walk diligently and consistently due east until he came to the place where he started and it will be by that persistence in his folly that he will eventually become wise to the fact that the earth is round.
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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby Gloominary » Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:57 pm

UrGod wrote:"Just be yourself, and to hell with what people think."


^ Exactly.


I stopped giving a fuck about what anyone else thinks about me a long time ago. Anyone who doesn't like me as I am can go fuck off and I am better for it.

Right on.
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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby Gloominary » Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:58 pm

Serendipper wrote:
Gloominary wrote:Perhaps the key is to continually postconceptualize (empiricism), rather than preconceptualize (dogmatism), or not conceptualize at all (philosophical skepticism/zen).

I never thought of it like that. Thanks!

You're very welcome.
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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby Gloominary » Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:52 pm

Serendipper

True, progressivism does seem an entity. Although, that's what the progressives say about the white men. And that's what the nazis say about the jews. Men say it about the feminists.

The Jews are an entity.
The Nazis are an entity.
The white men are an entity.
The progressives are an entity.

So ideologies are personified into entities and there is probably some evolutionary advantage for doing that since it's better to assume the rustling leaves is a lion stalking us rather than just the wind.

We sometimes see things as entities because they are entities.
An ant isn't just an ant, it's part of a colony.
Sometimes a wolf is lone, sometimes it's part of a pack.
Species aren't just species, they're part of an ecosystem, with both competitive, and symbiotic relationships with that ecosystem, known or unbeknownst to themselves.

Well, progressivism is a natural consequence of prosperity because when the desperate struggle for food and shelter is behind us, we can focus on other sources of pain and truth. So when life becomes too easy, people find new ways to complain: before, it was starving in the street, but now it's having hurt feelings that's the big deal.

Progressivism is as old as prosperity and generally precedes the fall of empires. Check out feminism and the fall of rome https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/12 ... l-of-rome/ Look into the Weimar Republic (discounting WWI effects) and see the condition that enabled the rise of Hitler. Or just accept it as sensible if you need no convincing since strong values build strong societies which engender prosperity which causes people to question the continuing need for those strong values and that precedes the erosion of prosperity until it falls apart and someone rises from the debris once again with strong values to restart the cycle.

If one species, race, sex, culture, class and so on (or if you prefer, some individuals, families) manages to thoroughly dominate the competition, making itself extraordinarily wealthy (decadence), it may go on dominating them, until there's nothing left, or alternatively, it may feel a little sympathy for the weak/unwilling, or, it may realize it's necessary for its own existence in the long run to give something back (symbiosis), or, the weak/unwilling may ban together and organize a resistance, a campaign to its reign.

egoism, corporatism and conservatism, where individuals and groups primarily care about themselves, is the Right approach, whereas altruism, socialism and progressivism is the Left approach.
Capitalism with the four monopolies (see Benjamin Tucker) is somewhere in between, but more on the Right, whereas a free market without the four monopolies is more on the Left.
I say neither approach is absolutely right/wrong, good/bad, but only relatively.
If a civilization, or an individual is to survive, it has to find the right balance of these two approaches, and the right balance varies.
There is a time to take, and a time to give back.
Giving back can be the right thing to do, or necessary, but also leaves one vulnerable to being taken advantage of.

If the victor voluntarily gives back, or is made to give back too much, if we bite the hand that feeds, we stand to lose everything, but on the other hand, if the victor never gives anything back, he will consume and consume until he's either too fat to consume anymore, and bursts/festers, or he will consume all of the resources on which he depends, ultimately leading to his starvation.
Civilizations have to find the right balance of growth, and sustainability/recession, or they perish.
It can be a tightrope walk, there are many variables and it's difficult to manage them all, in addition to greed, not just on behalf of the haves, but on behalf of the have nots as well.
And our genes, memes and environment, as individuals and as societies, incline us more to the right hand path in some ways, and the left hand path in others.

Yes, I see what you mean. If they can't control the gov, then fine, they'll control private industry and that's even better because who can question Dick's right to choose not to sell the AR15? Hey, private industry can do what it wants and not only are the conservatives forced to support their own disarming despite the cognitive dissonance of on one hand supporting freedom of their disarmers and on the other desiring to own guns, but they couldn't do anything about it anyway since since private industry isn't put up to a vote. Try arguing with a capitalist about declaring google a public utility and suddenly the "deplorables" are totally defending their enemy; it's hilarious!

Actually what I meant was progressives have become less preoccupied with class politics, and more preoccupied with race, sex and religious politics, turning progressivism into what I see as a tool of the economic elite, but in misunderstanding me, you made an interesting point yourself.
Progressives are allying themselves with the private sector, much to the dismay of conservatives who wedded themselves to the private sector and noninterventionism so much, they can't back out now without giving up a lot face, credibility.
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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby Gloominary » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:23 pm

All that being said, I think society has a tendency to veer too far towards the right in most ways, but can veer too far towards the left in some ways also.
Myself I'm finding my own balance, and I find my balance is at odds with my society.
In some ways I'm very far left, and in others far right.
Most people are rather simple, and tend to be mutually exclusive.
Ironically societies balance is made up of some very extreme individuals.

There is mysterious and covert symbiosis in overt competition.
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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby Gloominary » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:44 pm

@Wendy

I think you're falsely equating my position of equating falsely accusing someone of rape with rape, with Carleas equating racism with murder.

Firstly, there's degrees of racism, there isn't degrees of false rape accusations, all false rape accusations are terrible, some racism is relatively benign.
Saying Chinese can't drive, or blacks can't get enough fried chicken and watermelon, is relatively benign, whereas saying Chinese and blacks are subhuman and should be exterminated is damaging, whereas saying you had sex with someone while they were drunkenly unconscious, is extremely damaging, and saying you beat someone unconscious, then raped them, is also extremely damaging.

Secondly, almost no one approves of racism in our culture, if you say, I think blacks are dumb and Jews evil, you are more likely to incur physical damage upon yourself, and strengthen progressivism, than you are to incur damage upon a member of said races, whereas everyone disproves of rape, and so they should, and so it's far more damaging to be the target of a false rape accusation than the target of racism.

Thirdly, even your average racist hates rapists, even if they're members of his own race, more than they do other races, and is far more likely to feel emboldened and justified in attacking someone falsely accused of rape, especially if it's his daughter, girlfriend, mother or sister making the false rape accusation, than a member of another race.

Lastly rape accusation is about individuals, you are specifically targeting an individual where as racism targets a whole race, and spreads the damage thinly among the race.
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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby Gloominary » Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:18 pm

I mean it comes down to this, a single person, let alone all of society, isn't going to change their opinion of you, and start hating you on the basis of what one racist said about your race, and furthermore the racist may have said something benign, like I just want to preserve my race, not exterminate or subjugate other races, or I think Italians are too emotional, gregarious and jovial, where as if you falsely accuse someone of rape, you will probably ruin that individuals life overnight.
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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby Mr Reasonable » Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:43 pm

UrGod wrote:"Wth? How can anyone not be afraid to talk???"


Making you afraid to talk is the entire point. This is what tyrants do.


If I made you afraid to talk in the gun control thread, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to tyrannize you.
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Re: Accusations alone prove Nothing

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:45 pm

Firstly, there's degrees of racism, there isn't degrees of false rape accusations, all false rape accusations are terrible, some racism is relatively benign.
Saying Chinese can't drive, or blacks can't get enough fried chicken and watermelon, is relatively benign, whereas saying Chinese and blacks are subhuman and should be exterminated is damaging, whereas saying you had sex with someone while they were drunkenly unconscious, is extremely damaging, and saying you beat someone unconscious, then raped them, is also extremely damaging.

I'm not talking about the degrees of something that exists, I'm referring to how one thing is or is not, in this case, the equivalent of another. For instance, the liberal lefties equate an accusation with a guilty verdict. Is that an accurate equation? Is rape the equivalent of a lie? Is racism the equivalent of murder? Should a white collar criminal receive the same penalty as a murderer? <---I was on a roll so I had to throw that in there. :evilfun:
Last edited by WendyDarling on Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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