New school shooting, leftist response

Discussion of the recent unfolding of history.

Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:27 pm

UrGod wrote:What you said has literally nothing to do with what I said.

So... yeah

Are you fucking that dumb?

Yep. Gun control isn’t targeted at criminals

You said this, which is 100% wrong.

Gun control, laws, are targeted at criminals, which is why they are "criminals" in the first place. Retard.
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Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:28 pm

The whole point and purpose of "Gun Control (Laws)" are to identify criminals and take guns away from them, like spree-shooters, or retards like Urgod, who shouldn't be anywhere near a gun in the first place.
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Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby Zero_Sum » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:37 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:The whole point and purpose of "Gun Control (Laws)" are to identify criminals and take guns away from them, like spree-shooters, or retards like Urgod, who shouldn't be anywhere near a gun in the first place.

There are ways around all laws and regulations that is called loopholes where if you have the purchasing power requires very little work or effort. Right now if you have the mechanical ability and money you can buy the parts for an AK-47 essentially assembling it in your garage. You can even buy ammunition creator kits for the bullets.

If you have a 3D printer you don't even need to order the parts but instead make the components yourself. You can even make silencers or compressors out of you garage.

All you need is firearms blue prints specifications easily attained on the internet.
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Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:02 pm

Ideally you want "good guys" to have guns and "bad guys" to not. Therefore the issue is how to remove guns from the hands of spree-shooters. To say "we don't need gun control" is to imply that spree-shooters can get guns (assault rifles) as easily as anybody else.
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Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby Gloominary » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:08 pm

Why're Americans more homicidal than Europeans?
Is it because Americans have more guns?
Again, as I said earlier, Switzerland has loads of guns, yet a lower homicide rate than many-most other European Countries, so at the very least guns alone can't be blamed for the disparity, if they can be blamed at all, and as I've been participating in this discussion and looking at statistics, increasingly I don't think they can.
Look at this:

According to the US Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for African Americans was almost 8 times higher than whites, and the victim rate 6 times higher. Most homicides were intraracial, with 84% of white victims killed by whites, and 93% of African Americans victims were killed by African Americans.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide

So African Americans, for whatever reasons, genetic, environmental, I don't want to get into that here, it's unnecessary, are 8 times more likely to murder people than White Americans.
At the very least this is part of the reason why America has a higher homicide rate than your average European Country, who doesn't have a large African (American) Population.
Do White Americans commit homicide about as often as White Europeans?
If so, it follows the sole reason Americans commit more homicides than Europeans, is because of African Americans, and to a lesser extent Hispanic Americans, who also commit more homicides than White Americans, but less than African Americans.
Asian Americans tend to commit homicide a little less frequently than Whites, but since they're a small demographic compared with African, Hispanic and White Americans, their lower homicide rate is insufficient to offset the higher African and Hispanic American homicide rates in determining the American homicide rate as a whole.
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Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby Silhouette » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:13 pm

I'm interested by these US stats that show basically zero correlation between gun ownership and gun murders by state.

Whilst I think such a comparison leaves huge amounts of further relevant detail to be explored, and in fact misses the point, the idea of zero correlation at such a macro level potentially still applying to the micro level on further investigation amuses me. This is because it would otherwise annihilate both sides of the argument:

Are you anti-gun? Well there's no correlation between gun ownership and gun murders so all your fears were unfounded in practice after all. Deal with that!
But also, are you pro-gun? Well it turns out that all the rhetoric about needing a gun to protect yourself was equally unfounded in practice after all too. Suck it!

Of course, if this were true, despite the welcome respite that we would get from the most polarised commentators incessantly spouting what would have turned out to be fabricated drivel, nothing would change - because with no correlation it's no longer an issue. So the US would keep their guns, but a least they'd have to eat some humble pie.

___________________________________


But what do these stats really mean?

They mean with however many guns lying around, as long as there are at least some, the vast majority of people still don't want to use them against each other and don't, and the ones who do will pick them up and cause much more devastation than if they weren't around.

About this subject of criminals getting their hands on guns regardless of laws, that's not the full story. You see, with guns few and far between, black markets do indeed still sell them but at vastly inflated prices. This is only enhanced by there being no legal avenue through which to acquire a gun, and who resorts to criminal behaviour if they're rich enough to buy guns that cost obscene amounts? Also, when guns are everywhere, their use or even possession isn't seen in the same way as if they are all banned. It's like smoking when there's been a ban on it. You might be against it while there's no ban, but the degree to which you notice it sky-rockets once it's banned. Additionally, even criminals don't need guns, which are far more expensive than knives, when everyone is aware that nobody else has them. There is knowing that you know something, knowing that someone else knows something, but then there is also knowing that someone knows what you know, and even knowing that everyone knows what everyone else knows. The difference between these types of knowing is far more than you might think. Nobody seems to be appreciating the full consequences of banning guns, least of all the pro-gun people. We in countries that have banned them know for sure, by our own experience, how these things pan out. It really IS ok to just let them go. You don't get enslaved, none of your fears come true - we are living evidence of this.

Yes, there are countries where this happens more so than in others.
In fact, ironically, the countries where banning guns matters least, having guns matters least too. The less you need them, the more you are ok to have them. In the US, you feel you need guns, and correspondingly you don't deserve them.

A potential scenario that also interests me is based on the above: there might be a sweet spot that causes the most trouble with guns, and as long as you go to one extreme or the other, you'll be ok. Like people have said, if people know everyone has guns, they're less likely to use them because they have no advantage. And also, obviously, if nobody has guns, there's no need to bring one because the advantage is not worth the cost to acquire it.

But what I think it comes down to is this:
Gangs are going to use guns. This will influence figures.
Regular people are only going to use guns on themselves or on others in extreme moments of emotion. The more we do to help prevent these states before they start the better. And when there are less deadly weapons available, the most severe thing at hand won't be as dangerous and the consequences of the inevitable, occasional crime of passion will be alleviated.
Similarly to the above, mentally ill or unstable people are going to break and go on sprees regardless - but would you rather they did this with a knife or an automatic weapon?
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Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby Zero_Sum » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:52 pm

I could buy a pistol for $500.00 with ammunition on the black market if I wanted to. Vastly inflated prices? :lol:
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Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby Zero_Sum » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:14 am

Safe spaces to be built everywhere?

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Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby Gloominary » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:23 am

@Silhouette

In fact, ironically, the countries where banning guns matters least, having guns matters least too.

Not only have we presented evidence helping to prove banning guns in the USA probably wouldn't make Americans safer, but you haven't presented any evidence banning guns would help make any other country safer, you're just asserting it would, in fact, I posted a graph a little earlier that suggested the contrary, that there's a correlation between countries with fewer guns and higher homicide rates.

The less you need them, the more you are ok to have them. In the US, you feel you need guns, and correspondingly you don't deserve them.

Firstly, Americans want guns for more reasons than to defend themselves against criminals, secondly, if America wanting guns, in part to protect themselves, when the evidence seems to suggest they wouldn't help them to protect themselves, means Americans don't deserve guns, then it follows that Britons, wanting to ban guns, because they think banning guns will make them safer, when the facts suggest it wouldn't, means they don't deserve to live in a gun free country.
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Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:30 am

Banning guns would be the first step to making society safer (from spree-shooters).

And I will repeat: any answer is greater than no answer. This is what the Conservative-Right doesn't understand. You have to do something, even if it's ineffective. To sit and do nothing, means your political power will be withdrawn to the opposition.
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Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby Gloominary » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:35 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Banning guns would be the first step to making society safer (from spree-shooters).

And I will repeat: any answer is greater than no answer. This is what the Conservative-Right doesn't understand. You have to do something, even if it's ineffective. To sit and do nothing, means your political power will be withdrawn to the opposition.

But no evidence has been presented here to suggest that banning or significantly restricting guns would reduce the overall homicide rate, the evidence presented has suggested otherwise, that it wouldn't matter, and rationally speaking, that's all that really matters, that the overall homicide rate is reduced, what does it matter how people are killing people, what matters is they're killing people more or less, the way they do it is irrelevant, unless of course you're thinking emotionally.
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Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby Gloominary » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:41 am

any answer is greater than no answer.

This sounds emotional to me.
Any answer is better than no answer?
So we don't know what the cause of x disease is, therefore it's better to pick a random cause out of a hat, like french-fries, and spend billions of dollars trying to ban french-fries, instead of suspending judgment for now, and researching things more thoroughly to determine what the real culprits are, so something can actually be done about it to help avert these tragedies, instead of just emoting, scapegoating and wishful thinking?
I mean our culture is so simplistic, so dumbed down, the only answer the left can come up with seems to be a dumb one: ban guns, and the right aren't trying to come up with an answer.
Both parties are equally wrong.
What we need is some outside of the box thinking, like looking into other causes: drugs, autism, divorce, bullying, poverty, race, whatever the case may be, but our culture is so narrow, so polarized, unfortunately that is impossible right now.
This is the best the human race can come up with at this time folks, sad I know.
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Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby Zero_Sum » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:49 am

Give everybody guns to kill each other with or ban all guns disarming the entire population, can we just get the whole civil war started with either way? *Yawns* It doesn't really matter to me, make your pick and choose one.
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Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby URUZ » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:17 am

Zero_Sum wrote:Give everybody guns to kill each other with or ban all guns disarming the entire population, can we just get the whole civil war started with either way? *Yawns* It doesn't really matter to me, make your pick and choose one.


False black and white dichotomy. Typical nonsense.
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Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby URUZ » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:17 am

ILP is apparently the sewer of all sewers.
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Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:39 am

Gloominary wrote:the way they do it is irrelevant

Are you fucking joking me???

The way mass-murder is committed is "irrelevant"???
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Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby Zero_Sum » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:59 am

UrGod wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:Give everybody guns to kill each other with or ban all guns disarming the entire population, can we just get the whole civil war started with either way? *Yawns* It doesn't really matter to me, make your pick and choose one.


False black and white dichotomy. Typical nonsense.



You say that now, give it time....
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Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby Gloominary » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:11 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Gloominary wrote:the way they do it is irrelevant

Are you fucking joking me???

The way mass-murder is committed is "irrelevant"???

No I'm dead, fucking, serious, if 10 people are murdered, it doesn't matter if they died by knife, or gunshot, or grenade, or being ran over with a car, all's that matters is, they died.
What does it matter???
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Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby Gloominary » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:36 am

If 100 people are murdered in x state every year, what does it matter if they were murdered one at a time, or 10 at a time, or all at once?
What does it matter if they were murdered with x weapons, or y weapons, or z weapons?
Only if it can be demonstrated that banning x weapons will reduce the murder rate from 100 to 99 or less, does it matter, but if after banning x weapons people are just murdering an equal number of people in different ways, or the same ways because they're getting a hold of x weapons illegally, than it does, not, matter, unless you are emotionally attached to this idea that banning x weapons will, somehow, do something, in spite of the data suggesting otherwise.
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Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby Serendipper » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:54 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Serendipper wrote:Yes, that's very sensible.

I can protect my home with a 12 ga shotgun that will clear a hallway, but not penetrate walls. I can protect my property with a .22LR and a bolt action 30.06 is about all I'd need in reality. I couldn't make a strong case for needing an AR or a nuke, especially in the house.
Unless you felt like part of the reason citizens need guns is to protect against tyranny, then perhaps AR or nukes would be handy.

Yup, but the argument that someone can successfully fend-off the gov is moot since many have tried and no one has succeeded since the 1700s during the Revolutionary War when the people fought-off the Brits who had to cross an ocean by sail wielding only muskets and a few cannons. Now their gov is in their backyard and infinitely more weaponized. Whether or not people have ARs is irrelevant to the outcome and a "well-regulated militia" can't exist for the implied purpose of guarding a free state.

The clause should be reworded for people to have the right to bear arms for personal and property protection from criminals and thugs rather than the state because, as it stands, there is no possibility of complying with the clause and no mention of personal protection as a right.


I see the widespead gun owning as a horrific compromise that would be best dealt with long term by finding ways for power to have less control over information. Right now people are so poorly informed, and that includes in the police and military, that resistence to tyranny can easily be called terrorism and marginalized. But honestly the whole thing makes me rather sick. I suppose when it comes to the US I see the most powerful military in the world with a collapsing economy and that is a bad combination both domestically and internationally. Gun ownership seems like a least evil balancing there, aaaagh. And what you said was very sensible also.

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Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby Serendipper » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:17 am

Gloominary wrote:This graph appears to indicate that if anything, more guns make you safer.

Yes, so it would seem, but I think there is something more fundamental at play in that the ones who choose to own guns also choose to not shoot people.

Perhaps that's because guns even the playing field, people are naturally unequal, some people are strong, others are weak, some people are many, others are few, and the more guns the more people have, the less the strong and the many can oppress the weak and the few, or in other words: guns deter bullies.

It sounds good, but if it were true, then we could arm our prisoners and expect the equalization of power to secure peace. The difference between prisoners and other people is their held philosophies, tendencies, mindsets. So, peace comes to armed people not by the addition of arms, but from a philosophy of not using those arms to kill people which, somehow, coincidences with people who choose to arm themselves.

People who feel strongly about protection of the right to bear arms also feel strongly about not using those arms. And people who do not feel strongly about protecting the right to bear arms also do not feel strongly about not shooting people. Why that is so, I can only speculate. I suspect it has something to do with dogmatism vs open-mindedness and moral-relativism vs absolutism.

Absolutists are dogmatic in their beliefs and are not open-minded in discussion. They are not morally relative. They do not hold beliefs on reason and evidence, but assert their beliefs to be absolute; therefore they have no cognitive mechanism to undermine their own beliefs. Arguing with those sorts is futile, but they can be trusted not to shoot you for the same bullheaded reason.

Moral relativists are opposite. They're open-minded and therefore have a mechanism to change their mind. "Thou shalt not kill" is not absolute to them. If at some moment they deem you to be evil, then the ends of your extermination justifies the act of murder. Probably, because they know that about themselves, they seek to ban the means of killing.

That's my theory to explain why guns coincide with less use of guns.
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Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby Serendipper » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:31 am

Zero_Sum wrote:Smart criminals don't get pulled over to begin with and have on them all the right legal documentation to not warrant a search/seizure or if they are have secret storage compartments in their vehicle that can even elude a veteran experienced highway patrol officer.

Yes, one only needs to examine the war on drugs to see that prohibition doesn't work.

All the war on drugs accomplished was keeping pot out of scientific study while allowing pot-use to proliferate.

And it's the same with guns because if guns are banned, then law abiding people won't have guns and will be sitting ducks for criminals who don't observe the law.

Coke and meth are banned, but the shit is everywhere. I could probably find meth easier than I could aspirin. For aspirin, I'd have to drive to the store, but the iceman delivers. (I don't use meth; just saying.)
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Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby Serendipper » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:49 am

Gloominary wrote:So African Americans, for whatever reasons, genetic, environmental, I don't want to get into that here, it's unnecessary, are 8 times more likely to murder people than White Americans.
At the very least this is part of the reason why America has a higher homicide rate than your average European Country, who doesn't have a large African (American) Population.

That's a good observation. I wonder if it's true that intelligent people are more likely to kill themselves than someone else. What are the murder rates vs suicide rates of japan? Murder rate = 6.2/100k and suicide rate = 26/100k. Japan is has the 3rd highest IQ by country (105). Switzerland is 101 and the US is 98. I bet one could correlate murder and suicide rates with iq.

If so, the murder problem could be ended with education, but then we'd have a suicide problem.
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Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby Zero_Sum » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:54 am

Serendipper wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:Smart criminals don't get pulled over to begin with and have on them all the right legal documentation to not warrant a search/seizure or if they are have secret storage compartments in their vehicle that can even elude a veteran experienced highway patrol officer.

Yes, one only needs to examine the war on drugs to see that prohibition doesn't work.

All the war on drugs accomplished was keeping pot out of scientific study while allowing pot-use to proliferate.

And it's the same with guns because if guns are banned, then law abiding people won't have guns and will be sitting ducks for criminals who don't observe the law.

Coke and meth are banned, but the shit is everywhere. I could probably find meth easier than I could aspirin. For aspirin, I'd have to drive to the store, but the iceman delivers. (I don't use meth; just saying.)


Another thing to note, drug dealers often enough also sell illegal guns. At least that is my impression living across the United States within its societal fringes over the years.

It's because drug gangs are usually armed to the teeth where when they aren't smuggling drugs everywhere they're smuggling guns as well. Think of it as profit diversification on the part of organized crime at large.
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Re: New school shooting, leftist response

Postby Zero_Sum » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:10 am

Ideas floating around now is teachers being able to do their jobs with conceal and carry permits having firearms on themselves.

"Alright little Billy, if you don't recite your ABC's I am going to fire a round in your face!" :lol:

I love the rotting smell of a disgusting decadent dying society breathing its last gasps of air.
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