Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Discussion of the recent unfolding of history.

Is Muller chasing his own tail or vica versa?

1 FBI is flawed and deeply biased and concocted the Russian collusion in an effort to discredit the Trump administration
4
40%
2 The Trump administration has come up with the FBI bias in order to discredit the Muler investigation
5
50%
3 unsure
1
10%
 
Total votes : 10

Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby Carleas » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:42 pm

WendyDarling wrote:How can Trump be held liable for a Russian hack that he did not aid?

As a co-conspirator to whoever is responsible for the hack, either for agreeing to it, or for helping to disseminate it for profit after the fact. There may also be direct criminal liability for knowingly accepting stolen goods, but I don't know about the application of that concept in hacking cases.

WendyDarling wrote:Even if he had the DNC emails in advance and reported their existence, that wouldn't have stopped the source of the hack from releasing them.

This doesn't matter for purpose of determining if he committed a crime.

WendyDarling wrote:Trump would have still won.

This also does not matter for purpose of determining if he committed a crime.
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Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:57 pm

The FBI is biased, the media is biased, the judges are biased, the facts are biased, reality is biased, all against Trump. Everything that keeps Trump's ridiculous nature in check is what they attack and make up lies about, in order to sustain their delusional sense of self righteousness
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Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:18 pm

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:The FBI is biased, the media is biased, the judges are biased, the facts are biased, reality is biased, all against Trump. Everything that keeps Trump's ridiculous nature in check is what they attack and make up lies about, in order to sustain their delusional sense of self righteousness



K: perhaps... I might offer up a different idea..... that the supporters of IQ45
have biases and still believe in the myths and habits and prejudices and
superstitions that they were taught.... never having lost those biases and
myths....etc... they believe in IQ45 and his lies because they cannot
move past having those biases and myths...etc....they are a victim of the past
because they can't move beyond the past training of their childhood...
for them.. Santa Claus still exists as does the easter bunny......
myths and habits that people outgrow as they grow older, conservatives
have yet to outgrow..... and thus they are believers in anything that
confirms their myths and biases and habits and prejudices and superstitions
of childhood..in other words.... they have never grown up emotionally....
the world is still that dark and mysterious place of childhood.... where
belief is more important then facts....if you believe.. clap your hands....
I recall that from watching Peter Pan in my childhood.... conservatives
still clap their hands because they still believe.....

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Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby Carleas » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:48 pm

Trump refusing to apply new sanctions to Russia is a big deal too, right? Congress nearly unanimously passed a law requiring him to impose new sanctions, and he's just choosing to ignore that law. Curious to hear how this one is not problematic.

Here is the law. I can't find the official statement from the State Department, but here is one article on it (feel free to provide a conflicting source if you think this report is inaccurate).

EDIT: here's a conservative (but generally anti-Trump) commentator arguing that the administration is in compliance with the law. I don't think this accurately states what the law requires, but it is probably similar to the case the administration would make.
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Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby iambiguous » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:40 pm

WendyDarling wrote:
It's Obama hate pure and simple, irrational and neverendingly full of false accusations...the conservative right in a nut shell that needs to be committed to the nuthouse.

Obama wasn't overwhelmingly hated during his first term, but the hate grew during his second term of driving our country into the ditch.


Perhaps Trump can provide us with the actual number of conservatives who hated Obama in order to prove that so many more liberals hate him.

And whatever the political bias of the FBI [and others] actual sets of facts will eventually emerge. Then we can squabble about them. All the while pretending that if there is any political bias to be found it will be theirs and not ours.

I predict that.
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Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby Uccisore » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:02 pm

Carleas wrote:Is it just disingenuous, or is it actually incorrect? Is journalism just politics by another name?


Not inherently, but in this time and place it certainly is. To return to my point, it is disingenuous for you to make a special plea that the press should be allowed to do things political campaigns can't when it just so happens the press is in the pocket of your favorite political campaigns.

This is an interesting claim (if it is your claim); my initial reaction is to disagree, but I acknowledge that there's a lot of grey in the distinction.


The American press has voted overwhelmingly for Democrats, and donated overwhelmingly to Democrats, since at least Nixon. Landslide losers like Mondale and Dukakis were landslide winners if you poll just the press.

Uccisore wrote:If someone told the Trump campaign that they were going to do something illegal for the benefit of the campaign, and the campaign received the spoils of that illegal act,


Then that somebody would be a fool, because telling them that would serve absolutely no purpose other than to incriminate the person you're helping. Plausible deniability is a thing- there's nothing to be gained at all by doing what you describe.

I am a lawyer.


No shit! Cool.

Uccisore wrote:\Here "contribution or donation of money or other thing of value" is ambiguous, but easily interpretable to exclude stump speeches in support of a candidate, but not exclude e.g. material support in the form of the spoils of criminal hacking.


And it will be interpreted that way by any given lawyer that wants to see Trump impeached, I'm sure. Of course the problem there is that you can't easily say that getting information is legal, but getting information that *was obtained in an illegal way* is illegal, if the receiver of the information didn't know. And I would think conspiring to obtain illegally-obtained information must be covered by some other law.

But again, the salient point here is that we already know Trump and Hillary both were 'meeting with foreign officials to seek help with their campaign', and zero curiosity was apparently raised about their private conversations and so on.

Uccisore wrote:If "dirt on Trump" includes dirt on any more senior member of the campaign, or a promise to testify to what he does know, etc., that's how I understand it as well.


Those are two completely different things. A promise to testify to what he does know leaves open the possibility that he doesn't know anything useful to the investigation whatsoever- which is also a left open possibility in the documents you've shown me, which just say Flynn is going to cooperate. Again, the implication by all this 'Flynn cut a deal' bullshit is that Flynn offered dirt on Trump in exchange for a lighter sentence. Flynn agreeing to answer questions and not impede the investigation is a completely other thing, and I'm not sure that he could have ever disagreed.

The written agreement makes it pretty clear that that's what the investigators believe they have. Whether or not Flynn or Papadopolous are in fact able to provide what investigators seem to expect them to provide remains to be seen, but it is a reasonable conclusion from what we do know.


It's entirely possible that they have some information that points to somebody in the Trump campaign talking to somebody in Russia at some point in time about the campaign, and maybe even soliciting/accepting help with the campaign. But as I already showed everybody knows that isn't illegal. The entire precedent for what we're even talking about this shit is false, and the obstruction of justice case isn't any stronger. The entire thing revolves around pretending strategizing your campaign with foreign nationals is somehow sinister, which in turn revolves around pretending the Farage thing never happened.

Remember, we're not looking for "I saw Trump talking to a Russian guy about what piece of shit Hillary is" or even "I saw a Russian guy strategize with Trump about how to beat Hillary." This are both publicly available activities, you just have to swap out Russia for UK or Italy. By your own admission, we're looking for one of two things: A Russian official offering Trump money to help his campaign even though Trump is already a billionaire, Or a Russian official declaring to Trump (or Trump floating the idea) that they intend to nail Podesta with a phishing attempt.

Both of those are so ludicrously amateurish that they sound more like bait for just such an investigation as this, and not any serious attempt to collude.
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Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby Meno_ » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:32 pm

Without bias it is fair to say that something happened to the American political landscape since the early days of politics when moral and ethical ground was much more inclined to become a real issue based on true rather then fake inventions of political rhetoric. The same had precedent in the Roman Empire, where, Sophism had claimed the routes of political design and evolution.

Transposing it to today, the media being the message, it seems obvious that there is a divisive two level approach to public and private distinction In US politics.

Earlier in the Teapot Dome, the Watergate, and the Lawintsky efforts of censure, the distinction between what the public was made to understand what's behind the closed door conferences held , was less obviously sewn with , efforts to prevent the appearance of gross McCarthy type overreach between the two.

Today the apparent brazenness of political rhetoric resembles a kind of gross public trial of American Values , as distinct from the intentions of the Constitution. The message seems to be , -let the political lawyers present cases, regardless of the truth, our society has evolved to the stage of sophistry and let the whole of society become the jury, believing truth to be based on the best oratorical presentation, since cynicism as to political correctness has slipped into the equation as well.

The public knows that the beat defense is funded by the best filled pocket book, this is a politically correct statement with which no one really could , or would argue with. Truth as am ideal has been displaced by praatix approaches to interpretation , the black letter has been washed out to protect those whom society understands to be victims of circumstance. Circumstantial evidence bars any justification based on other then entry into the slippery slope d terrain of lowering it, the bar to establish more stringent levels of proof.

This is process of values in free fall , and it is the other side of the logic between arguments such as this. The free fall dangerous because it can effect the course democracy"s unraveling of distinctive didferemces between those governing amdntje governed, at the very least impinging on the stabilizing power of checks and balances, ultimately creating an authoritarian governance, based on false allegations claiming to be truthful.

That it happened in Rome, which fell, may be an indication of what will take place in the US, excepting that perhaps something has been learned in history.

Never the less, the Coanstitition has been written in no uncertain terms, therefore look for efforts to change it, challenging its said archaic vision.

As ambigoqus said earlier , that we shall see the outcome as it turns out, but results will be fed into the evolutionary matrix by constant repetition and conflation of ideas. Too long a time in the various investigations will wash out relevance and the irony of time healing all wounds of society passe., bloating the evolving correlation between fall of values and public cynicism
It is this replacement to public trust and religion that is becoming the opium of the people, and this Narcotic is the price of redemptive payout by the governence.

The new antipathy between Wray, the new FBI chief and President Trump over the release of the Nunes document is an indication that the snowball is rolling down the slope. Otsnsaid that its coming to a head between the administration and the intelligence community as a whole.
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Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby WendyDarling » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:07 pm

The new antipathy between Wray, the new FBI chief and President Trump over the release of the Nunes document is an indication that the snowball is rolling down the slope.

Does Wray have the choice to betray the FBI by allowing the Trump WH the memo's release? I don't think so, even if he supports Trump, he would have to side with the FBI, his employees, or eventually there would be no FBI left for him to manage.

Carleas, like I said the FBI (all the security agencies) are in the Democrats pockets with the media. This memo may be the start of the evidence regarding Clinton that you requested and it will go along ways towards answering the OPs question as a yes for #1. Who stalled the release of the memo to the Republicans for a year?
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Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby Meno_ » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:53 pm

WendyDarling wrote:
The new antipathy between Wray, the new FBI chief and President Trump over the release of the Nunes document is an indication that the snowball is rolling down the slope.

Does Wray have the choice to betray the FBI by allowing the Trump WH the memo's release? I don't think so, even if he supports Trump, he would have to side with the FBI, his employees, or eventually there would be no FBI left for him to manage.

Carleas, like I said the FBI (all the security agencies) are in the Democrats pockets with the media. This memo may be the start of the evidence regarding Clinton that you requested and it will go along ways towards answering the OPs question as a yes for #1. Who stalled the release of the memo to the Republicans for a year?




I don't know, WENDY , l am trying to adhere to no bias on my part , in order to be more objective , and with me its like both parties are complicit in devaluing the concept of fair play , honesty so as to create the cynical impression that its business as usual, the difference being which party is doing it more conceivably, effectively.
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Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby WendyDarling » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:24 pm

Both parties are not complicit. One party, the Democrats, are doing all this BS and the media is who is complicit in aiding them to rile up the public.
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Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby Meno_ » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:47 pm

WendyDarling wrote:Both parties are not complicit. One party, the Democrats, are doing all this BS and the media is who is complicit in aiding them to rile up the public.



I would not state that beyond a reasonable doubt experts in the field just came out with the opinion that the case does not require the production of a warrant to produce evidentiary proof beyond preponderance of evidence. Legal scholars do not see the issue rising to a need for criminal action.(as of 02/03/2018).
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Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby Meno_ » Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:21 pm

With the threat of a coming Constitutional Crisis, based mostly on the irreducability of. real and fake truths, where the smoke is so heavy that it covers a political maelstrom , US society is basically repressed by changing winds whose sources are equally hidden. That's all an objectivity can say at this point"
in light of a poll's supposed fairness.

Repression is a strong word but the facts are that mixing intangibles which correlate to the use of sophistry to undermine meaning , by creating a sense of vagueness about who opposites can create hybrid meanings , do repress the understanding of constituents who basically either are in a fog, or are vested by self serving interests.

The release of the memo is simply an act of self serving interest, putting the interests of the country after the real fact of gaining political clout. Trump allegedly has not read the document, but if he is sure that it will serve his interest in overriding an alleged bias by the intelligence and justice arm of the US system of governance, why not?
To create more confusion? Follow the classic tools of repression? Why not if truth, or the impressions such create necessitates it?

The results can be serious:, either an explosion of Constitutional wrath, or an implosion of trust in the capacity to govern, resulting in a large boost to a non aligned independent voice in the U.S..
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Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby Meno_ » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:31 pm

In any case, the trend toward disenfranchising 'Democatic Principles' and undermining and deconstructing the tie in between economic - political struggle between principle and process, will be more successfully buried under the increasingly failing intelligence memory of the country and collusion will morph into just another ideological relic, not at all resembling McCarthy-ism.

Democracy is not affordable as a tool to bring NWO about. Either party could attest to it, but they are too worried about asymmetry between their political careers and constitutional niceties.

In fact, it may not be too early to project some kind of consistent view of a resolution to the title of this poll, that appears credible at this time.

Bias seems to have been present in some degree in both camps, but the question comes up, what degree of preponderance can be attributed to either, in this mix, which may prove libel, defactoring the normal attribution of political horseplay.

This slippery slope is what they are navigating on, imminently testing the litmus of public knowledge, tolarence, and believability. Since the cluster of issues have not been raised to a liability in terms of a criminal standard, the playing field is as of now, is still maneuverable with some margin for error left. Once criticality is reached, the noose will tighten in the amount of slack presumed.
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Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby Uccisore » Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:31 am

So, fact, as it turns out.
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Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby Meno_ » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:00 pm

Uccisore wrote:So, fact, as it turns out.



Could You elaborate? I am somewhat in the fog . I could let it stand. , as a statement of probability, against a backdrop of certainty, since definitionally the whole nine yards is still in process.

I may be off on Your intended meaning here , though.
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Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby Chakra Superstar » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:25 pm

Meno_ wrote:
Uccisore wrote:So, fact, as it turns out.


Could You elaborate? I am somewhat in the fog . I could let it stand. , as a statement of probability, against a backdrop of certainty, since definitionally the whole nine yards is still in process.

I may be off on Your intended meaning here , though.


I won't speak for Ucci but the OP asked whether political bias from the FBI is a fact or fiction and it has turned out to be a fact.

The Nunes memo is a summary of the House Intelligence Committee (HIC) investigation into the claim the FBI/DoJ Trump investigation was biased and that they abused their surveillance authority by spying. The gist of the summary is this:

* Clinton PAID Fusion GPS $160K to get dirt on Trump

* Fusion GPS hired Steele (ex-MI6)

* Steele paid Russian agents to collect dirt on Trump which means: CLINTON PAID RUSSIANS (VIA INTERMEDIARIES) TO INTERFERE IN THE ELECTIONS.

* Steele contacted left-wing media and planted stories about Trump/Russian collusion.

* The left-wing media ate it up and flooded the news outlets with fake news.

* Steele then used the fake stories he leaked, and included them in his dossier to prove Trump was colluding with Russia – i.e. he quoted his own stories in the dossier to back up his fake narrative.

* The Steele dossier included amateur research some of it seemingly lifted from Wikipedia, errors that were easily proven wrong (e.g. Page could not have met with Russians in Prague because he has NEVER been to Prague) and salacious stories like the one about Trump hating Obama so much that he hired the Moscow hotel room Obama stayed in and got prostitutes to piss on the bed Obama used etc.

* Even though doubtful, the FBI accepted the information with almost NO VERIFICATION.

* The FBI then used the information (they believed to be largely untrue) to get a FISA spy warrant on Page (a Trump foreign affairs advisor) and thus by extension, spy on the communication going to and from Trump and his team.

* The FBI didn’t tell the FISA court that the dossier was 1. virtually UNVERIFIED 2. written by a vehemently anti-Trump source with a history of lying or 3. that the source of the information used his own leaks to use in the dossier.

* The FBI admitted under oath to Congress that they KNEW the information was fake. Knowing this, the FBI still used the fake information to extend their spy warrant on Page/Trump three times.

This is NOT justice. Justice supposed to be blind; without fear or favour This is political bias in the extreme. For anyone who believes in the rule of law, an unbiased police and justice system and a functioning, fully-informed democracy, this should worry the shit out of you. If the Republicans were doing this shit to the Democrats, I have exactly the same response - no fear or favour. But this is beyond disgusting.
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Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby iambiguous » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:03 am

Chakra Superstar wrote:The Nunes memo is a summary of the House Intelligence Committee (HIC) investigation into the claim the FBI/DoJ Trump investigation was biased and that they abused their surveillance authority by spying. The gist of the summary is this:

* Clinton PAID Fusion GPS $160K to get dirt on Trump

* Fusion GPS hired Steele (ex-MI6)

* Steele paid Russian agents to collect dirt on Trump which means: CLINTON PAID RUSSIANS (VIA INTERMEDIARIES) TO INTERFERE IN THE ELECTIONS.

* Steele contacted left-wing media and planted stories about Trump/Russian collusion.

* The left-wing media ate it up and flooded the news outlets with fake news.

* Steele then used the fake stories he leaked, and included them in his dossier to prove Trump was colluding with Russia – i.e. he quoted his own stories in the dossier to back up his fake narrative.

* The Steele dossier included amateur research some of it seemingly lifted from Wikipedia, errors that were easily proven wrong (e.g. Page could not have met with Russians in Prague because he has NEVER been to Prague) and salacious stories like the one about Trump hating Obama so much that he hired the Moscow hotel room Obama stayed in and got prostitutes to piss on the bed Obama used etc.

* Even though doubtful, the FBI accepted the information with almost NO VERIFICATION.

* The FBI then used the information (they believed to be largely untrue) to get a FISA spy warrant on Page (a Trump foreign affairs advisor) and thus by extension, spy on the communication going to and from Trump and his team.

* The FBI didn’t tell the FISA court that the dossier was 1. virtually UNVERIFIED 2. written by a vehemently anti-Trump source with a history of lying or 3. that the source of the information used his own leaks to use in the dossier.

* The FBI admitted under oath to Congress that they KNEW the information was fake. Knowing this, the FBI still used the fake information to extend their spy warrant on Page/Trump three times.

This is NOT justice. Justice supposed to be blind; without fear or favour This is political bias in the extreme. For anyone who believes in the rule of law, an unbiased police and justice system and a functioning, fully-informed democracy, this should worry the shit out of you. If the Republicans were doing this shit to the Democrats, I have exactly the same response - no fear or favour. But this is beyond disgusting.


Certainly something to think about.

Still, as usual, there are other ways to look at it:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... fbi-russia

Many are then inclined to pile up the facts in order to support their own political prejudices.

Both the liberals and the conservatives do it. More or less self-consciously.

Now, either Clinton colluded with the Russians in order to help defeat Trump or Trump colluded with the Russians in order to defeat Clinton.

Or, sure, neither party did any such thing.

A set of facts will eventually emerge regarding this that we can all argue about until the day we die. And a set of facts regarding obstruction of justice.

Personally, I don't really follow this shit much anymore. These days, I'm more inclined to focus instead on my "dilemma". The hole that I've dug for myself philosophically.

Still, it does seem rather convincing [here and now] that Trump and Putin have something going on here that is mighty suspicious.

I mean, come on.
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Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby Chakra Superstar » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:07 am

.
These firings, demotions and retirings aren't happening because of piling up political accusations.
Read their emails. Their anti-Trump bias is all there.

McCABE
* Deputy Director FBI (McCabe) resigned just before the memo came out. He was due to retire in a few months so something was seriously worrying him.

* The FBI ‘lost’ the emails those looking for bias were after but fortunately, someone in the DOJ ‘found’ them.

* The emails between McCabe and his staff showed the level of anti-Trump bias and how they were concerned about their careers and pensions more than finding the truth.

* McCabe’s wife ran for office as a Democrat in 2015 and receive hundreds of thousands of dollars from Hillary’s people and Democrat donor.

STRZOK
* Peter Strzok (FBI – Deputy Assistant Director Counterespionage) was removed by Mueller for anti-Trump bias. The emails said they should go easy on Clinton as an ‘insurance policy’ when she became President.

* Strzok’s interviews are also troubling. He interviewed people like Flynn alone and without any form of recording. What he says was said in the interviews is the only evidence public has.

COMEY
* FBI Director Comey was fired for leaking FBI info to a friend who was expected to leak it to the press.

* Comey wrote a draft exonerating Clinton in the private server/classified information investigation months BEFORE he interviewed her. He was also concerned about Clinton becoming President and the effect that would have on his career. In his final report, he removed 5 references to ‘gross negligence’ which could have been used to jail or fine her.

Under Comey, the server the DNC said was hacked by Russians was NEVER INSPECTED BY THE FBI or other government agencies. The DNC wouldn't give the FBI access but they did provide the FBI with a report done by a private company that works for the DNC. That report is what the intelligence communities report is based off.

Let's clarify what this means: 1) claim a crime was committed 2) refuse to give the police access to the crime scene 3) give them a report you arranged and 4) the police go after the perpetrator you claimed was responsible. To quote Putin "Have you lost your mind?" Da, comrade Putin. Da.

THIS ENTIRE INVESTIGATION AND FISA SPYING SCANDAL ON PAGE (AND TRUMP) REVOLVES AROUND THE BELIEF THAT THE DNC SERVERS WERE HACKED BY RUSSIANS BUT NOBODY SEEMS CONCERNED THAT THE DNC SERVER WAS NEVER INVESTIGATED BY THE FBI OR ANY U.S. INTELLIGENCE AGENCY.


OHR
* Ohr (DOJ - Deputy Attorney General) was demoted – twice. His wife worked for Fusion GPS (the source of the fake dossier) when the FBI / DOJ were investigating Trump. His wife passed on some Fusion GPS information to Ohr who then passed it on to the FBI. Ohr didn’t divulge that he got the information from his wife/Fusion GPS.

* Ohr reported that when Steele spoke with him Steele told Ohr that he “was desperate that Donald Trump not get elected and was passionate about him not being president.”

ROSENSTEIN AND WRAY
* Many are now waiting on Rosenstein – Dept Attorney General in DOJ to resign (very likely) and some are even suggesting that Wray, the new Trump appointed FBI Director who was called in to clean up the bias and corruption after Comey was fired, must resign too.

.
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Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby Uccisore » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:30 am

I think Dinesh DiSouza said it best: Anybody who says this is no big deal is saying they would happily see it done again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8mPuckq ... ure=vmdshb

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Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby iambiguous » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:43 am

Uccisore wrote:I think Dinesh DiSouza said it best: Anybody who says this is no big deal is saying they would happily see it done again.


Let's come back to this in, say, six months. We'll have a lot more facts to hammer into it then.

Still, what we need on threads like this is an agreement as to which of us is aligned with the irresistible force and which of us is aligned with the immovable object. :wink:
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:08 am

Chakra Superstar:
I won't speak for Ucci but the OP asked whether political bias from the FBI is a fact or fiction and it has turned out to be a fact.

The Nunes memo is a summary of the House Intelligence Committee (HIC) investigation into the claim the FBI/DoJ Trump investigation was biased and that they abused their surveillance authority by spying. The gist of the summary is this:

* Clinton PAID Fusion GPS $160K to get dirt on Trump

K: and the moon is in the sky, so what...

* Fusion GPS hired Steele (ex-MI6)

K: actually the fact is, fusion was researching GOP candidates early in 2016 while
being paid by an GOP firm...later a law firm, Perkins Coie, retained Fusion GPS on
behalf of both Clinton and the DNC, roughly April, 2016.... Fusion subcontracted
Steel, a retired M1-6 agent....Steele dossier circulated in them media during the fall
of fall 2016...and the existence of the dossier was revealed publicly by David Corn
of Mother Jones on OCT 31...too late to influence the election....on January 10, 2017
Buzz feed publish the entire dossier.....

The dossier has 6 major points...1: Trump has cooperated with Russian Authorities for years...
the payoff for IQ45 was the Russian nationals who brought his property for a massive
increase of price.... for example, his building was for sale for 8 million dollars,
and some Russian national bought it for 45 million dollars...therein lies possible
money laundry charges....

2: IQ45 is vulnerable to Russian blackmail on sexual matters..... as the Russians
are supposed to have a tape of IQ45 being peed on by prostitutes in the Moscow
Ritz-Carlton.....

3: there was a "well developed conspiracy of cooperation" between IQ45 and Russia...
which was managed by Manafort with Carter Page being the intermediary until
Manafort firing in Aug, 2016... afterward IQ45 personal lawyer, Michael Cohen played
an increasingly larger role in magaging the "Kremlin Relationship" this is similar to
what we are finding out today with details being slightly different....

4: IQ45 team know of and approved of the Russian plan to deliver E-MAILS
to WikiLeaks and offered them policy concessions in exchange..... to date, as
far as we know, this hasn't been proven....

5: Carter Page played a key role in the conspiracy...so far Page has denied under
oath, that he didn't have such a role.....and no proof has shown up but we don't
know what Mueller knows...

6: Michael Cohen played a key role in the conspiracy... after Manafort was fired,
Cohen traveled to a European country, later claimed to be the Czech Republic for
a meeting in late August or early Sept..... Cohen's claims to have never been to
the Czech Republic, but he could have traveled via another Schengen area country
and like Manafort have multiple passports.. both is possible......

Now the interesting thing about the Dossier is how much Steele didn't find out....
for example, the dossier doesn't mention Natalia Veselnitskaya who did arrange
the infamous Trump tower meeting on, June 16?....it doesn't mention Papadolpolous
who has since pleaded guilty...

the problem with the entire GOP narrative about the dossier is how the FBI actually
became involved in this whole thing... in May 2016, during a night of heavy drinking,
Papadolpoulos, told the Australia's ambassador to the UK, that Moscow had
thousands of emails that would embarrass Mrs. Clinton, stolen in an effort to try to
to damage her campaign.... the Australian ambassador told his government who in
turned told the FBI.. and then the FBI began to investigate both the Russian hacking itself
and the possible involvement of the IQ45 campaign which is before the FBI got the
dossier...so the link you are looking for happened BEFORE Steele took the dossier to
the FBI......... this takes care of the dossier part of this rebuttal...


* Steele paid Russian agents to collect dirt on Trump which means: CLINTON PAID RUSSIANS (VIA INTERMEDIARIES) TO INTERFERE IN THE ELECTIONS.

* Steele contacted left-wing media and planted stories about Trump/Russian collusion.

* The left-wing media ate it up and flooded the news outlets with fake news.

* Steele then used the fake stories he leaked, and included them in his dossier to prove Trump was colluding with Russia – i.e. he quoted his own stories in the dossier to back up his fake narrative.

* The Steele dossier included amateur research some of it seemingly lifted from Wikipedia, errors that were easily proven wrong (e.g. Page could not have met with Russians in Prague because he has NEVER been to Prague) and salacious stories like the one about Trump hating Obama so much that he hired the Moscow hotel room Obama stayed in and got prostitutes to piss on the bed Obama used etc.

* Even though doubtful, the FBI accepted the information with almost NO VERIFICATION.

K: recall that the FBI was investigating this story BEFORE, getting the Dossier.. so it was
just used as secondary information... and recall that to get a FISA warrant,
you need to get a sign off on a minimum of 6 FBI and Justice people.... and every 90 days,
from a federal judge... if the FBI came to a FEDERAL judge with nothing, the judge
would have laughed them out of court... and in fact, it seems the judge did ask and was
told about the path of the dossier... which isn't really relevant but one sole source
of information will not get you a FISA warrant...

* The FBI then used the information (they believed to be largely untrue) to get a FISA spy warrant on Page (a Trump foreign affairs advisor) and thus by extension, spy on the communication going to and from Trump and his team.

* The FBI didn’t tell the FISA court that the dossier was 1. virtually UNVERIFIED 2. written by a vehemently anti-Trump source with a history of lying or 3. that the source of the information used his own leaks to use in the dossier.

K: they did tell the judge and had to tell every single judge since then, recall, you
need to renew the FISA warrant every 90 days... and how do you know that steel is
an "vehemently anti-trump source with a history of lying"? inquiring minds want to know...

* The FBI admitted under oath to Congress that they KNEW the information was fake. Knowing this, the FBI still used the fake information to extend their spy warrant on Page/Trump three times.

K: when? how do you know this?

This is NOT justice. Justice supposed to be blind; without fear or favour This is political bias in the extreme. For anyone who believes in the rule of law, an unbiased police and justice system and a functioning, fully-informed democracy, this should worry the shit out of you. If the Republicans were doing this shit to the Democrats, I have exactly the same response - no fear or favour. But this is beyond disgusting.
.[/quote]


K: me thinks you are protesting too much..... I really wonder why you are so
afraid of this investigation....but the real problem lies in the right's remarkable
turnaround......the right now loves Russia and Putin and hates America and
its institutions... if you don't hate America and its institutions, why do
you keep attacking the FBI and its work? Why do you insist on damaging
the credibility and work of the FBI? the government and its institutions can
only work if they have the full faith and trust of the american citizens
and by attacking the FBI in particular and intellegence agencies
in general, you are damaging America in a very real and profound way...and
not only the FBI, but the justice department has come under heavy attack
and all that does us undermined our judicial system but hay, if you hate
america so much as to undermine the entire political system, you can
always move to Mother Russia... I am sure Putin would love you to
undermine America... he might even put you on the payroll with IQ45 and
his minons.....you can troll on internet sites like this and make money
defending IQ45.... wait a minute, you troll this sites with nonsense
and you clearly hate america and its institutions, you are paid by Putin....
I have some questions, are you paid in Rubles or in dollars? What kind of
401k plan does Russia have? do you have a medical plan?...

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:56 am

Apparently Napoleon said something to the effect ... "Don't interfere with your enemies when they are killing each other"

Sounds like practical advice.

Napoleon aroused the consciousness of tens of millions of people .... what was the population of Europe at the time ... 100M ??

Putin has aroused the consciousness of 100's of millions of people ... simply the consequence of the historically largest populations at the moment combined with astronomically superior communications technology.

Putin like Napoleon before him is credited with the "arousal" ... a human weakness ... not a fact. Humans have a need to point to one person ... their simple minds can't deal with the complexity of the issue.

What are the consequences when such an "arousal" occurs within the species?

Like water heated in a closed container ... at some point the lid will blow off.

The USA does not operate in a vacuum ... despite the fact so many Americans think otherwise.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby Chakra Superstar » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:24 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:K: actually the fact is, fusion was researching GOP candidates early in 2016 while
being paid by an GOP firm...later a law firm, Perkins Coie, retained Fusion GPS on
behalf of both Clinton and the DNC, roughly April, 2016.... Fusion subcontracted
Steel, a retired M1-6 agent....Steele dossier circulated in them media during the fall
of fall 2016...and the existence of the dossier was revealed publicly by David Corn
of Mother Jones on OCT 31...too late to influence the election....on January 10, 2017
Buzz feed publish the entire dossier.....

Parts of the dossier were released from June 2016 and continued to be released up to, and after, the elections. You’re being intentionally deceitful by using the date the FULL dossier was released. The constant flow of memos from the piss dossier fed the rapacious fake news media 24/7 from June onward running up to the elections.

I know anti-Trump Republicans started the Fusion GPS search for dirt on Trump but that’s irrelevant. Fusion GPS found nothing so the anti-Trump republicans stopped hiring them. For the anti-Trump Republicans, it ended there.

Fusion GPS however shopped around and Hillary decided to hire them and start her own tacky dirt operation. She paid $160 million and demanded they find something. Fusion GPS hired an ex-MI6 agent with a reputation for making bullshit up. They got their money; Clinton got her bullshit.

Some of that $160 million went to Russian agents which means:

HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS

So, who’s colluding with Russians to interfere in the elections again?

If the investigation was simply on Russian interference in the 2016 elections, then Hillary and Co. would be in jail. Unfortunately, it's only focused on Trump colluding with Russians and the elections so she gets a 'get out of jail' card and he gets smeared as someone who rigged the elections.



PS: Did you know the Russians hired Podesta Group to push through the sale of 20% of U.S. Uranium production to Russia? Did you know that John Podesta was hired by Russians to lobby politicians to ease the sanctions on Russia? Did you know Bill Clinton met with Vlad when Hillary was Sec of State? Did you know that Bill Clinton was paid $500,000 from a Russian Bank (Moscow) involved in the Uranium sale? Did you know that Hillary got 'donations' from the participants after the sale of the Uranium deal went through? I admit this has nothing to do with tampering with the 2016 elections but it's good to know that the Clintons/Democrats don't hate Russia. It's just part of the charade to cover their incompetence at losing the unlosable elections.

Next time you hear Papadolpolous Manafort, Page etc met with a Russian... talked to someone who had a friend who was Russian.... or was drunk (Russian vodka no doubt) and said they he had all this information that nobody has seen, compare all that drunken stupor and gossip to the Clinton camp above. The Clinton camp WERE PAID BY RUSSIANS -- OVER AND OVER AGAIN -- TO DO RUSSIAN’S BIDDING FOR THEM. That is what collusion looks like. Getting money from foreign governments/interests and. in Hillary's case, not declaring it aka hiding it.


Peter Kropotkin wrote:The dossier has 6 major points...1: Trump has cooperated with Russian Authorities for years...
the payoff for IQ45 was the Russian nationals who brought his property for a massive
increase of price.... for example, his building was for sale for 8 million dollars,
and some Russian national bought it for 45 million dollars...therein lies possible
money laundry charges....

How about supplying the dates these supposed (?) deals went through? I know he did deals in 2008 but who gives a fuck about what Trump did 5, 10 years ago? If what he did was a crime deal with it in a separate investigation. I’m not interested in protecting Trump from crimes he may have conducted in his past life. Throw the book at him if he's guilty. I’m ONLY interested in keeping the focus on the what the investigation is about – colluding with Russia to interfere with the 2016 election.

Peter Kropotkin wrote:2: IQ45 is vulnerable to Russian blackmail on sexual matters..... as the Russians
are supposed to have a tape of IQ45 being peed on by prostitutes in the Moscow
Ritz-Carlton.....

"Supposed to have" :lol: You don't trust the Russians - except when it comes to dirt they 'supposedly' have on your political opponent. Then you believe them. The double standard of the left is too much.

Hey Pete, I've been told the Russians 'supposed to have' a tape of Huma pissing on Hillary's face while Podesta wanks and watches. Do you believe that? It's part of Steele's dossier that hasn't been released yet. It hasn't been proven, there is no evidence but if we repeat it each day, people will start to believe there's something in it. That's how brainwashing happens.

Peter Kropotkin wrote:3: there was a "well developed conspiracy of cooperation" between IQ45 and Russia...
which was managed by Manafort with Carter Page being the intermediary until
Manafort firing in Aug, 2016... afterward IQ45 personal lawyer, Michael Cohen played
an increasingly larger role in magaging the "Kremlin Relationship" this is similar to
what we are finding out today with details being slightly different....

A ‘well develop conspiracy to cooperate’ in what? :lol: Again, the sleazy manipulation is breathtaking. Why didn’t you/your source say what they were cooperating in? Were they cooperating in their jobs? Were they cooperating in something that had nothing to do with Trump or Russia? Sleasy innuendo.

This style is typical of left-wing media and why left-wing media attracts people with no critical faculties. (I'm sure the right have their own sleazy style as well it's just that I don't see the right-wing press much). I get my information from non-aligned, non-corporate sources that treat people as adults who can think for themselves.

Peter Kropotkin wrote:4: IQ45 team know of and approved of the Russian plan to deliver E-MAILS
to WikiLeaks and offered them policy concessions in exchange..... to date, as
far as we know, this hasn't been proven....

This is complete and total bullshit. Assange has denounced that so many times he's sick of repeating himself.

"...to date, as far as we know, this hasn't been proven" :o shock horror.

Peter Kropotkin wrote:5: Carter Page played a key role in the conspiracy...so far Page has denied under
oath, that he didn't have such a role.....and no proof has shown up but we don't
know what Mueller knows...

"...and no proof has shown up " This is my point. At some time you'll have to come to the awful realization that Jesus is a no-show, Santa doesn't exist and Trump didn't collude with the Russians to hack the DNC servers and throw the elections.

I’m not going to respond to the rest of your nonsense because you’ve just cut ‘n pasted material for Vox (or some other socialist website) and dumped it here. Apparently, you can’t think for yourself so why should I bother? I may as well argue with a bot. Sad.

.
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Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby iambiguous » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:01 pm

iambiguous wrote:Still, it does seem rather convincing [here and now] that Trump and Putin have something going on here that is mighty suspicious.

I mean, come on.


Speaking of which consider this:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/donald-tr ... n?ref=home

About two thirds of the way down, the author considers just that:

Just look at his post-election behavior toward Russia, because if we're going to play tag-the-traitor, let's get to it. Trump's abject, boot-licking obedience to Russia and Putin speaks for itself.

If it is treason you seek, look no further than a man who gladly allows Russia's continued attacks on our democracy, our Republic and our institutions. Putin's implacable hostility, aggression and desire to divide and disrupt this nation are not in question by anyone except Trump and his most slavish sycophants. Putin's desire to weaken our standing, diminish our power and to harm our interests in the world is stated Russian policy, not speculations in the fevered minds of Never Trumpers.

When Congress sent Trump veto-proof legislation demanding he impose sanctions on Russia, Comrade Don waited until the last second to impose, well, nothing. When Putin arrested campaign opponent Alexei Navalny on phony charges, Vlad's errand boy in the Oval Office remained silent.

For some reason, this President seems determined to demonstrate that he will do anything, at any time to please the Russian authoritarian. He will tear down the United States government around him to hide from accountability. He will wreck alliances, compromise intelligence sources, and endanger our troops to please Putin. There's a word for that.

There is always a reckoning for treason. There is always a moment where justice and history strip away the excuses and rationalizations, and the betrayer is held to account.

One thing Donald Trump should have considered before launching Monday's attack was just how vulnerable he is to the same accusation, and that reckoning.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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Re: Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:46 pm

Chakra Superstar:
I know anti-Trump Republicans started the Fusion GPS search for dirt on Trump but that’s irrelevant. Fusion GPS found nothing so the anti-Trump republicans stopped hiring them. For the anti-Trump Republicans, it ended there.

Fusion GPS however shopped around and Hillary decided to hire them and start her own tacky dirt operation. She paid $160 million and demanded they find something. Fusion GPS hired an ex-MI6 agent with a reputation for making bullshit up. They got their money; Clinton got her bullshit.

K: ummm, maybe 4 post ago, it was 160 thousand... and you repeated that number
and when I used that number, you didn't say a word, so if you are going to lie, at least
keep the numbers right......

Chakra: Some of that $160 million went to Russian agents which means:

K: and who exactly?

Ch: HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS

K: I am reminded of the Simpsons beginning where Bart is writing on the Blackboard...
but of course, if you write it only 4 times, it can't be true.... you must write it 8 times
for it to be true...


Chakra: So, who’s colluding with Russians to interfere in the elections again?

K: ummmm, IQ45, why do you ask?

CH: If the investigation was simply on Russian interference in the 2016 elections, then Hillary and Co. would be in jail. Unfortunately, it's only focused on Trump colluding with Russians and the elections so she gets a 'get out of jail' card and he gets smeared as someone who rigged the elections.

K: I find this very interesting in so far as if IQ45 went on TV today and confessed,
confessed everything about the Russian invesigation was right, you would still
find some means to deny that confession.... because for you, the belief is
far more important then the truth....you have created this fantasy
conspiracy land that must be protected at all cost.... if IQ45 did confess,
you would say, oh, the democrats and the liberal media somehow made him
falsely confess..... your entire self worth is based on these conspiracy theories...
and what would happen to your own self validation if they were proven wrong?

either you would create new conspiracy theories to protect your ego or
you would have a nervous breakdown, as would most members of the
GOP.....

Clinton on the other hand, has been the most investigated person ever in planet
earth's history and despite all that, she has never, ever
been charged with or proven to do anything wrong.........

but of course, your various conspiracy theories PROVE, that she
is guilty of something, evil and anti-american.....

so you change the facts to suit your conspiracy narrative,
so Clinton goes from paying Fusion GPS 160,000 to 160 million dollars
in the space of 5 post... why, because it fits your narrative better....
your conspiracy theories...... and that is because your entire self worth
is tied up in your faith in these theories.....as for my self worth,
I am old and my self isn't worth much these days......

truth is I am far too busy to engage in nonsensical conspiracy theories....

truth is, I only engaged in yours because I have been very, very busy with work and
study and writing and I needed a good laugh... thank you for that laugh.....

nothing like a deranged conspiracy theory to make my day.....

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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