The Unfuture of the United States

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The Unfuture of the United States

Postby Jakob » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:49 pm

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Ouch.
Is there a future?
I mean besides a total debt-amnesty?
It would seem, not so much.

Discuss.
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Re: The Unfuture of the United States

Postby Meno_ » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:19 pm

There is. Case at hand , my daughter. She would not have been able to attain her plans at all in education had at not relied on the government loan system. She has accrued over 200,000 in loans but she achieved her goals.now she is a lawyer and teaches at a university.

She worries paying it off but her earning potential signifies
an early termination with liberal and low interest payments until then. Debt is bad but worse are unfulfilled dreams.

The question becomes pejorative if the quality over quantity issue is seen in terms of the basic intended concept, (I think)
that is, even if 1000 students are unsuccessful to get their plans into motion in spite of having loaded up on themselves a lot of debt, even then the worth of one success over failure makes the system worthwhile.

Education has to consider statistical evidence as a backdrop against the not so glamorous picture of success rate as a given.
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Re: The Unfuture of the United States

Postby demoralized » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:32 pm

i'd like to see more info on the numbers

do these numbers consider people who graduate college many years ago?
how do these debts #'s compare to other debts of both college graduate and non-college grad?
how do these average debts compare to average income? net worth?
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Re: The Unfuture of the United States

Postby Pandora » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:43 am

I think it's a scheme (among others) to get people into debt for the rest of their lives. Most graduates cannot even find the job in their field of study after graduating and end up working in a completely unrelated field, making their degree pretty much useless.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFzUbgpWNf8
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Re: The Unfuture of the United States

Postby James S Saint » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:12 am

Pandora wrote:I think it's a scheme (among others) to get people into debt for the rest of their lives. Most graduates cannot even find the job in their field of study after graduating and end up working in a completely unrelated field, making their degree pretty much useless.

You nailed it, as you often do.
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Re: The Unfuture of the United States

Postby Pandora » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:04 pm

These things are obvious, or at least should be. Unfortunately, people don't really question it (the system). I wrote a big rant in rant section about it,too, but then deleted it. Anyway, it seems that nobody really wants to question the system; because everybody wants to be somebody in the system.
And people who are PhDs are more committed to the system because they are in greater debt. They become the servants of the system too. Suppose you're a doctor, or a medical/scientific researcher. If your work is sponsored by big companies, they will only sponsor that research the results of which will be profitable for it. If for federal government, it will be very politicized. Doctors are the same way. Because doctors are brought up by the system and are indebted to it, they are more likely to become blind drug/surgery peddlers themselves. If an MD has been taught in school that treatment method A or B is not recognized by the system he will not implement it or even suggest it, period. He will only do what the system has taught him to do. The boxed thinking shows how these people are used as tools. (before anyone reads any scientific research they should look at where the money for research came from). Has anyone noticed that in say, a medical system, all roads lead to only this or that, and somebody (a contracted company) is making money out of it; It's like a con game, but only on a legal basis. So what do you get when you buy your higher education? The right to be the slave to the system and wear nicer clothes while being so? People think the higher the degree the smarter the person, but that's just bullshit. It's more like being a top whore in a harem; you may have more freedom, nicer jewels and more power over people below you, but it doesn't change the fact that you're a tool to the system.
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Re: The Unfuture of the United States

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:21 pm

Pandora wrote:I think it's a scheme (among others) to get people into debt for the rest of their lives. Most graduates cannot even find the job in their field of study after graduating and end up working in a completely unrelated field, making their degree pretty much useless.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFzUbgpWNf8

Yes, you've got it right. People are being lured into borrowing money to get a career that will not in ten lifetimes pay off that loan.
It is literal slavery. The banks own these people, some very successful exceptions barred, for life.
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Re: The Unfuture of the United States

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:30 pm

These things are obvious, or at least should be. Unfortunately, people don't really question it (the system). I wrote a big rant in rant section about it,too, but then deleted it. Anyway, it seems that nobody really wants to question the system; because everybody wants to be somebody in the system.

Ive invited you to BTL before, because, as apparently James also has seen, you lack certain illusions.
Be assured, there are very many who do not trust the system at this point. Now is a good time for you.
And the system will come down. It may take 50 years or just 3, I don't know that. But it is a house of cards.

And people who are PhDs are more committed to the system because they are in greater debt. They become the servants of the system too. Suppose you're a doctor, or a medical/scientific researcher. If your work is sponsored by big companies, they will only sponsor that research the results of which will be
profitable for it.

And people that have invested half their life in getting into a situation are going to be trying to convince themselves that it was the right choice.
They will attempt to value their mistakes as positives and value themselves in terms of these mistakes. Thus becoming sociopaths, monsters, zombies, schizos.

If for federal government, it will be very politicized. Doctors are the same way. Because doctors are brought up by the system and are indebted to it, they are more likely to become blind drug/surgery peddlers themselves. If an MD has been taught in school that treatment method A or B is not recognized by the system he will not implement it or even suggest it, period. He will only do what the system has taught him to do. The boxed thinking shows how these people are used as tools.

Yes. A tool is a thing that only exists in terms of others. It is a passive being that passively values itself in terms of the value it has to active beings that sustain it in this slavish state of apparent safety, which is actually a very fragile and infection-prone state of artificial stagnation.

(before anyone reads any scientific research they should look at where the money for research came from). Has anyone noticed that in say, a medical system, all roads lead to only this or that, and somebody (a contracted company) is making money out of it; It's like a con game, but only on a legal basis. So what do you get when you buy your higher education? The right to be the slave to the system and wear nicer clothes while being so? People think the higher the degree the smarter the person, but that's just bullshit. It's more like being a top whore in a harem; you may have more freedom, nicer jewels and more power over people below you, but it doesn't change the fact that you're a tool to the system.

Again, all this is accurate. I add that legal system is itself a con game, because the only thing that is decisive in terms of whether someone is physically detained or not, is money. First in terms of reputation and friendships in high circles, then in terms of hiring high class lawyers, third in terms of bail. There eis definitely no such thing as equality before the law. Still, it is worse in a lot of other places.

We need to think about why this tradition of thousands of years of authoritative scheming persists. There must a very powerful reason, which even if it is bad and unsound, must be understood if we want to have leverage here. We can't just say "they are evil scum" - scum has motivations too, and these motivations are rarely as simple as overt will to power - it is usually disguised in forms of justification; religious-type view of how things are.

We may need to deconstruct that view.
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Re: The Unfuture of the United States

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:47 pm

Because you have to realize, I mean I ma sure you do, that to the people engineering these situations, there is equally little choice about the matter, perhaps less, as there is for people engaging these loans. Its quite interesting, the decision to go there, deep into debt for an education which itself takes a huge toll - the concept is quite absurd, quite suicidal a thing for a society to come up with - perhaps it is only the willingness of the people to take these loans that "spawned the baddies".

Perhaps this was the case in Egypt in 5000 BC as it is now. People are begging to be used up.
And with reason - if one isn't able to engineer great purposes, there is the very real question of how to expend ones valuable life, how to not waste it. Putting it in service to other forces that appear justified may not seem the worst of gambles.

The problem arises when these forces are themselves struggling to justify their ways of existence by some ancient means that aged like milk. It my be easier to beat them by offering them relief, a means out of their rat-race. Im sure it isn't pleasant spending ones life ruining other lives according to ancient protocol. Here it goes too, that if one doesn't have an individual design for ones powers, it is a question to which powers to relinquish. It may be an extremely aggravating form of existence. Philosophies task would not be to "kill kill kill the opposition" but to create conditions wherein the opposition succumbs to a valuing of the world that isn't antithetical to the world in general.
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Re: The Unfuture of the United States

Postby Pandora » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:53 pm

It is being speculated that social inequality started with domestication of animals in the ancient world.
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/358/6365/850.full

And with reason - if one isn't able to engineer great purposes, there is the very real question of how to expend ones valuable life, how to not waste it. Putting it in service to other forces that appear justified may not seem the worst of gambles.

The problem arises when these forces are themselves struggling to justify their ways of existence by some ancient means that aged like milk. It my be easier to beat them by offering them relief, a means out of their rat-race. Im sure it isn't pleasant spending ones life ruining other lives according to ancient protocol. Here it goes too, that if one doesn't have an individual design for ones powers, it is a question to which powers to relinquish.
It usually comes to a case of blind leading the blind. I was talking to a guy recently who was working for a pharmaceutical research company. This guy was convinced that his company was trying to help people (thereby making him a good person by default). And I ask, is a drug dealer helping the druggie in agony by giving him a doze of the drug? Does a passerby really help the homeless man on the street by giving him spare change? I'm sure he thinks he does, and maybe the druggie or the homeless thinks so too. And this is how this gets justified. Of course someone will say, "who are you to judge what other person's true values are? What if someone actually wants to be homeless or a slave, or used for someone else's gain?" In that case, I won't have an answer except that they will have to recognize and know exactly what they are in the scheme of things, and not delude themselves with pretty justifications.
Philosophies task would not be to "kill kill kill the opposition" but to create conditions wherein the opposition succumbs to a valuing of the world that isn't antithetical to the world in general.
I don't think it works. For some reason (greed, low self-esteem, etc.), this gets hijacked and re-routed back to profit land. If financial incentive is removed, it will be psychological reward. In other words, it just gets more insidious. People want to believe in the good cause, but there is always someone else who just wants to take advantage of it for personal gain. I have seen it happen again and again. If something sounds too good to be true, or feels too good, it likely is. Unfortunately, many people are okay with overestimated and exaggerated things and buy into a pretty picture presented to them: miracle cures, snake oils, get rich schemes, helping charities, helping animals and trees, donating own organs and blood, or donating for this or that noble cause, and of course, dying for your country. No matter what horrendous things you do for the system, you will always be a "good person". And who doesn't want to be a "good person"?
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Re: The Unfuture of the United States

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:55 pm

It usually comes to a case of blind leading the blind. I was talking to a guy recently who was working for a pharmaceutical research company. This guy was convinced that his company was trying to help people (thereby making him a good person by default). And I ask, is a drug dealer helping the druggie in agony by giving him a doze of the drug? Does a passerby really help the homeless man on the street by giving him spare change? I'm sure he thinks he does, and maybe the druggie or the homeless thinks so too. And this is how this gets justified. Of course someone will say, "who are you to judge what other person's true values are? What if someone actually wants to be homeless or a slave, or used for someone else's gain?" In that case, I won't have an answer except that they will have to recognize and know exactly what they are in the scheme of things, and not delude themselves with pretty justifications.

Yes, like Auschwitz camp commanders were surely proud of their virtuous lives. Ive given up on humans in that sense of thinking they arent as a rule spineless morons when it comes to the world at large.

I give to beggards when I like the character of the beggard. Ill talk for some minutes if I suspect the person is worthy kf my money and if s/he is Ill give a couple of dollars. But not to feel good. Just because Im relatively wealthy and I know what it is like to be at rock bottom and forgotten.

]Philosophies task would not be to "kill kill kill the opposition" but to create conditions wherein the opposition succumbs to a valuing of the world that isn't antithetical to the world in general.
I don't think it works. For some reason (greed, low self-esteem, etc.), this gets hijacked and re-routed back to profit land. If financial incentive is removed, it will be psychological reward. In other words, it just gets more insidious. People want to believe in the good cause, but there is always someone else who just wants to take advantage of it for personal gain. I have seen it happen again and again. If something sounds too good to be true, or feels too good, it likely is. Unfortunately, many people are okay with overestimated and exaggerated things and buy into a pretty picture presented to them: miracle cures, snake oils, get rich schemes, helping charities, helping animals and trees, donating own organs and blood, or donating for this or that noble cause, and of course, dying for your country. No matter what horrendous things you do for the system, you will always be a "good person". And who doesn't want to be a "good person"?

Haha, I dont. Whenever someone calls me that I shiver. Its a foul title, seeing as who have received - and extended it. I am a good thinker and writer. Good persons dont exist as 'person' has no qualitative or normative measure. Im a decent cook and a bad ice skater, a good dancer and martial artist, i have a good mind and a bad temper, etc etc. I do work to benefit the Earth, and this is good work, rewarding and it makes other people happy. But Im not "a good person" for it - just sane and capable.

All people working for Pharma are directly or indirectly involved in experimenting on humans. All of them either psychopaths or very dumb.

My point in general is that there is only one logical rule that applies to life at all and that morality is only real when this logic is being upheld.

This logic is the logic of difference as the universal primordial groud.
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Re: The Unfuture of the United States

Postby UrGod » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:40 pm

Average student loan debt is way, way worse than the infographic indicates.

I know people graduating with $100,000 in debt with a social studies degree. Also, most lawyers do not even earn very much money, certainly not compared to the massive debts for schooling and the amount of hours they need to work (80-100 hours a week usually).

Yes it is a scam to indebt people for life, considering you cannot discharge student loan debt in bankruptcy. Imagine what will happen when the debt keeps skyrocketing, most middle class and upper-middle people have this debt they can barely afford, and then the economy crashes again like in 2008. Wages will fall, unemployment will rise sharply, and millions of people will be stuck with $100,000-200,000 in loans that they literally cannot pay of, ever, nor can they get rid of in bankruptcy or any other means.

This is all part of creating a permanent slavery class.
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Re: The Unfuture of the United States

Postby UrGod » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:43 pm

UrGod wrote:Average student loan debt is way, way worse than the infographic indicates.

I know people graduating with $100,000 in debt with a social studies degree. Also, most lawyers do not even earn very much money, certainly not compared to the massive debts for schooling and the amount of hours they need to work (80-100 hours a week usually).

Yes it is a scam to indebt people for life, considering you cannot discharge student loan debt in bankruptcy. Imagine what will happen when the debt keeps skyrocketing, most middle class and upper-middle people have this debt they can barely afford, and then the economy crashes again like in 2008. Wages will fall, unemployment will rise sharply, and millions of people will be stuck with $100,000-200,000 in loans that they literally cannot pay of, ever, nor can they get rid of in bankruptcy or any other means.

This is all part of creating a permanent slavery class.


There is one thing Trump needs to do while there is still time: make it possible for people to discharge student loan debts in bankruptcy.

This single act alone would rescue the entire economy, and prevent the formation of a perpetual slave-class in the coming decades.
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Re: The Unfuture of the United States

Postby Zero_Sum » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:18 pm

The United States is a great example of what capitalism guided by unfettered greed inevitably becomes. It is an example of capitalism in its final stages much like the serpent Ouroboros that eventually given the chance will eat its own tail.
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Re: The Unfuture of the United States

Postby UrGod » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:41 am

Zero_Sum wrote:The United States is a great example of what capitalism guided by unfettered greed inevitably becomes. It is an example of capitalism in its final stages much like the serpent Ouroboros that eventually given the chance will eat its own tail.



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