Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

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Would you rather...

Spacey never broke any law and never became an actor.
2
33%
all the allegations are true and his filmography is as is.
4
67%
 
Total votes : 6

Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby Sauwelios » Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:16 pm

If you don't know or don't care, don't vote.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby Blurry » Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:40 pm

Why is this question worded this way, as if his career was somehow directly influenced by an alleged assault?
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Re: Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby iambiguous » Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:58 pm

Yet another one.

Weinstein...Toback...Ratner...Allen...Polanski

Going all the way back to...Hitchcock? Or, no doubt, to the invention of the casting couch itself.

Spacey is largely an actor, but he did direct a couple of films.

Anyway, here's our dilemma: To the extent that it is proven that these men are guilty as charged, what is our moral obligation insofar as either viewing or not viewing their films?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby Sauwelios » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:10 pm

Blurry wrote:Why is this question worded this way, as if his career was somehow directly influenced by an alleged assault?


It _is_ directly influenced by the allegations: he was just fired from House of Cards, while filming for the final season is still underway (currently suspended).

Anyway, regardless, my question is simply: if you could either have his filmography or no serious pain caused by him (I'm sketching the scenario where, say, 9/11 wasn't prevented by the absence of the movie Se7en), which would you choose? If his character is what it allegedly is, and his career would have been significantly less great if his character had been significantly "better", would you rather that his character had been significantly "better"?
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Re: Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby Sauwelios » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:14 pm

iambiguous wrote:Anyway, here's our dilemma: To the extent that it is proven that these men are guilty as charged, what is our moral obligation insofar as either viewing or not viewing their films?


I say view their films insofar as these are good. Not only is that pleasurable, but the more pleasure they bring, the more justified is the pain that helped make possible or was made possible by their success!
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Re: Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby Meno_ » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:56 pm

He is not an actor, albeit a good one , because he couldn't act out of his abuse of an underaged male, by suddenly admitting he was gay.

It was just so unconvincing...


Was it worth it? Well kind of, if referring to his role in "American Beauty",as a typified de-construction of intimate visuals depicting sensual behavior.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby iambiguous » Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:41 pm

Sauwelios wrote:
iambiguous wrote:Anyway, here's our dilemma: To the extent that it is proven that these men are guilty as charged, what is our moral obligation insofar as either viewing or not viewing their films?


I say view their films insofar as these are good. Not only is that pleasurable, but the more pleasure they bring, the more justified is the pain that helped make possible or was made possible by their success!


That'll work for some though not for others.

The mention of Kevin Spacey reminded me of of an article I had read recently at the Daily Beast: https://www.thedailybeast.com/this-dire ... cars-stage

In particular:

Asked if he’s avoiding watching any Weinstein-produced films, Bossert said: “Yes, for the time being I won’t patronize [sic] anything that he produced. There are plenty of films to see."

It all goes back to that ambiguous -- necessarily ambiguous? -- relationship between what an artist creates and what an artist does. Think, for example, if Adolph Hitler's paintings -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paintings_by_Adolf_Hitler -- had been thought to be the work of an artistic genius.

No getting around how problematic this all becomes.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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Re: Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby Meno_ » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:28 pm

To ignore what some consider his greatest role, in American Beauty, for which earned him an Academy Award for best actor, and of which commentators conveyed a prophetic sense of underlying events to follow, gives away a purposeful override of general themes over specific ones.

But to be fair, the greatest artists who by their actions resolve a prioritized subtlety , are not as complexly earth shaking, whereby a resolution cannot encompass the aesthetic totality of what their intentional beginnings tried to envision structurally


The thematic homosexuality has no resolution in that manner, a look at the moral compass can inscribe the paradox by which , a very large segment still adhere to: the Vatican's view, that homosexuality is a structural deficit.

This has to be factored in, in light of which, many people concern as telling.
Last edited by Meno_ on Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:54 pm

I dont do hypotheticals, but Spacey is a genius actor and as many actors, a scummy bastard with absolutely no idea of where fiction ends and reality begins.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby Blurry » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:51 am

Sauwelios wrote:
Blurry wrote:Why is this question worded this way, as if his career was somehow directly influenced by an alleged assault?


It _is_ directly influenced by the allegations: he was just fired from House of Cards, while filming for the final season is still underway (currently suspended).


But you just gave an example of his career being negatively affected by his actions, yet he still has had the career he's had and still has allegedly assaulted someone.

Anyway, regardless, my question is simply: if you could either have his filmography or no serious pain caused by him (I'm sketching the scenario where, say, 9/11 wasn't prevented by the absence of the movie Se7en), which would you choose? If his character is what it allegedly is, and his career would have been significantly less great if his character had been significantly "better", would you rather that his character had been significantly "better"?


This is a pointless hypothetical. It literally means nothing to anyone to ask this question. I'm not trying to dog you or be a bitch, but seriously. He allegedly assaulted someone, and he's also had a pretty awesome career. Those things have happened. He may have had better character and still assaulted someone, or worse character and never assaulted anyone. Doesn't matter.
"Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don't bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: 'It's not where you take things from - it's where you take them to.'" - Jim Jarmusch
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Re: Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:31 am

I agree with Orbie that America Beauty is his best film. Its a true classic.

On Weinstein, these are the movies that should apparently now be redacted or preferably burned.

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    2000 Chocolat (executive producer)
    2000 Bounce (executive producer)
    2000 Malèna (producer)
    2000 Hellraiser: Inferno (Video) (executive producer)
    2000 Backstage (Documentary) (executive producer)
    2000 Highlander: Endgame (executive producer)
    2000 Scary Movie (executive producer)
    2000 Boys and Girls (executive producer)
    2000 The Yards (executive producer)
    2000 The Prophecy 3: The Ascent (Video) (executive producer)
    2000 Reindeer Games (executive producer)
    2000 Love's Labour's Lost (executive producer)
    2000 Scream 3 (executive producer)
    2000 Takedown (executive producer)
    2000 About Adam (executive producer)
    2000 The Crow: Salvation (executive producer)
    2000/I Committed (executive producer)
    2000 Down to You (executive producer)
    1999 Allied Forces (executive producer)
    1999 Wasteland (TV Series) (executive producer)
    1999 The Cider House Rules (executive producer)
    1999 Music of the Heart (executive producer)
    1999 Holy Smoke (executive producer)
    1999 Mansfield Park (executive producer)
    1999 In Too Deep (executive producer)
    1999 Outside Providence (executive producer)
    1999 Teaching Mrs. Tingle (executive producer)
    1999 My Life So Far (executive producer)
    1999 She's All That (executive producer)
    1999 Guinevere (executive producer)
    1998 Playing by Heart (executive producer)
    1998 Shakespeare in Love (producer)
    1998 The Faculty (executive producer)
    1998 B. Monkey (co-executive producer)
    1998 Talk of Angels (executive producer)
    1998 Little Voice (co-executive producer)
    1998 Heaven (executive producer)
    1998 Rounders (executive producer)
    1998 54 (executive producer)
    1998 Halloween H20: 20 Years Later (co-executive producer)
    1998 Velvet Goldmine (executive producer)
    1998 The Mighty (executive producer)
    1998 Since You've Been Gone (TV Movie) (executive producer)
    1998 Ride (executive producer)
    1998 Wide Awake (executive producer)
    1998 Senseless (executive producer)
    1998 Phantoms (executive producer)
    1998 A Price Above Rubies (executive producer)
    1998 The Prophecy II (Video) (executive producer)
    1997 Wishful Thinking (executive producer)
    1997 Scream 2 (executive producer)
    1997 Jackie Brown (executive producer)
    1997 Good Will Hunting (executive producer)
    1997 The Wings of the Dove (executive producer)
    1997 Cop Land (executive producer)
    1997 Air Bud (executive producer)
    1997 Princess Mononoke (executive producer - english language version)
    1997 Tokyo Pig (TV Series) (executive producer)
    1997 Robinson Crusoe (executive producer)
    1997 Mimic (co-executive producer)
    1997 She's So Lovely (co-executive producer)
    1997 Addicted to Love (executive producer)
    1997 Nightwatch (executive producer)
    1996 Scream (executive producer)
    1996 Sono pazzo di Iris Blond (executive producer)
    1996 Victory (co-executive producer)
    1996 The Last of the High Kings (co-executive producer)
    1996 The English Patient (executive producer)
    1996 The Crow: City of Angels (executive producer)
    1996 I Love You, I Love You Not (executive producer)
    1996 Emma (executive producer)
    1996 The Pallbearer (executive producer)
    1996 Flirting with Disaster (executive producer)
    1996 Beautiful Girls (executive producer)
    1996 Jane Eyre (co-executive producer)
    1995 Restoration (co-producer)
    1995 The Journey of August King (executive producer)
    1995 A Month by the Lake (executive producer)
    1995 The Crossing Guard (executive producer)
    1995 The Englishman Who Went Up a Hill But Came Down a Mountain (executive producer)
    1995 Things to Do in Denver When You're Dead (executive producer)
    1995 Blue in the Face (executive producer)
    1995 Smoke (executive producer)
    1994 Prêt-à-Porter: Ready to Wear (executive producer)
    1994 Pulp Fiction (co-executive producer)
    1994 The Road Killers (executive producer)
    1993 Mother's Boys (executive producer)
    1993 The Hour of the Pig (executive producer)
    1993 True Romance (executive producer)
    1993 The Night We Never Met (executive producer)
    1993 Benefit of the Doubt (executive producer)
    1992 Into the West (co-executive producer)
    1992 Dust Devil (co-executive producer)
    1992 Map of the Human Heart (executive producer)
    1991 The Pope Must Die (executive producer)
    1991 A Rage in Harlem (executive producer)
    1990 The Big Man (co-executive producer)
    1990 Hardware (executive producer)
    1990 Strike It Rich (executive producer)
    1989 The Lemon Sisters (co-executive producer)
    1989 Scandal (co-executive producer)
    1986 Playing for Keeps (producer)
    1985 Deep End (Documentary) (producer)
    1982 The Secret Policeman's Other Ball (Documentary) (producer)
    1981 The Burning (producer)


For me, Pulp Fiction and True Romance are the main accomplishments. He sure made a lot of crap too. No so with Spacey, through House of Cards truly gets very, very bad in the last season. Its probably artistically for the best that it got canceled.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:38 am

Marilyn Monroe made a career as a high class prostitute with no acting ability making movies about... high class prostitutes with no acting abilities making acting careers. It is what Hollywood is. Without sexual deviancy not be a single Hollywood movie might have been made except perhaps James Cameron and Ridley Scott productions.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby Sauwelios » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:12 am

Blurry wrote:
Sauwelios wrote:
Blurry wrote:Why is this question worded this way, as if his career was somehow directly influenced by an alleged assault?


It _is_ directly influenced by the allegations: he was just fired from House of Cards, while filming for the final season is still underway (currently suspended).


But you just gave an example of his career being negatively affected by his actions, yet he still has had the career he's had and still has allegedly assaulted someone.


Your point being? My point is that the people who think his actions should affect him in this way should logically also think he should have been fired from Se7en if any assault allegations had emerged during the filming thereof. (I mention Se7en because I'm pretty sure that's the first I ever saw of Spacey.)


Anyway, regardless, my question is simply: if you could either have his filmography or no serious pain caused by him (I'm sketching the scenario where, say, 9/11 wasn't prevented by the absence of the movie Se7en), which would you choose? If his character is what it allegedly is, and his career would have been significantly less great if his character had been significantly "better", would you rather that his character had been significantly "better"?


This is a pointless hypothetical. It literally means nothing to anyone to ask this question. I'm not trying to dog you or be a bitch, but seriously. He allegedly assaulted someone, and he's also had a pretty awesome career. Those things have happened. He may have had better character and still assaulted someone, or worse character and never assaulted anyone. Doesn't matter.


I suppose someone with good character may _happen_ to assault someone. However, the allegation is not that he's assaulted _someone_, as in a single person; a pattern seems to be emerging since the first allegation. So it's this bad character, allegedly, who has that impressive filmography. It's this bad character who played the killer in Se7en, and Kaiser Soze, and the ephebophile in American Beauty, and Frank Underwood etc. etc. so convincingly. Still think his character doesn't matter and my hypothetical is pointless now?
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Re: Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby Sauwelios » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:19 am

Fixed Cross wrote:Marilyn Monroe made a career as a high class prostitute with no acting ability making movies about... high class prostitutes with no acting abilities making acting careers. It is what Hollywood is. Without sexual deviancy not be a single Hollywood movie might have been made except perhaps James Cameron and Ridley Scott productions.


Maybe Zoot should go to Hollywood when he gets out! :mrgreen:
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Re: Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:48 pm

Sauwelios wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:Marilyn Monroe made a career as a high class prostitute with no acting ability making movies about... high class prostitutes with no acting abilities making acting careers. It is what Hollywood is. Without sexual deviancy not be a single Hollywood movie might have been made except perhaps James Cameron and Ridley Scott productions.


Maybe Zoot should go to Hollywood when he gets out! :mrgreen:

He should have gone there to begin with. No one would have noticed anything out of the ordinary, let alone illegal about his behaviour. Now it would seem rather bad timing.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby Meno_ » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:38 pm

But Hollywood IS where he did go, if You're implicating Kevin, so the bad timing is very bad for a professional, since there timing is everything.

But perhaps he will be forgiven for what fixed says of his inability not to live up to his confusion between his roles on the screen and in real life. His brother thinks not, and he dismisses any justification based on his intimate knowledge
He was called a monster very way on. A book is coming out written by said brother, literally spelling out Kevin's internal monsters covered by a repealing animus, who he has acted out from true early experiences, most notably from his monster of a father.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:21 pm

Meno_ wrote:But Hollywood IS where he did go, if You're implicating Kevin, so the bad timing is very bad for a professional, since there timing is everything.

But perhaps he will be forgiven for what fixed says of his inability not to live up to his confusion between his roles on the screen and in real life. His brother thinks not, and he dismisses any justification based on his intimate knowledge
He was called a monster very way on. A book is coming out written by said brother, literally spelling out Kevin's internal monsters covered by a repealing animus, who he has acted out from true early experiences, most notably from his monster of a father.


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-My brother is a monster.
-Ok. Whose that on that picture behind you?

http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/ce ... 4af0bc73d2

Dear lord. Thats a lost case.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:18 pm

Your point is actually very good, Sauwelios.

What if good actors of villain-parts are always on the deviant side? How could those that are in uproar now, in good conscience pay to watch a movie or series with a villain in it again?

Ive noticed the fact that Hollywood actors are as a rule murderously insane, we saw this in sparkling technicolor with their calls to assassinate Trump. Now we see how this plays out in their own lives.

Its a real question now. Do we close down Hollywood? It seems to be necessary, if the left wants to keep talking. But since Hollywood is their podium for talking...

:lol: :lol:

The left.
What a character.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby Blurry » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:11 pm

I suppose someone with good character may _happen_ to assault someone. However, the allegation is not that he's assaulted _someone_, as in a single person; a pattern seems to be emerging since the first allegation. So it's this bad character, allegedly, who has that impressive filmography. It's this bad character who played the killer in Se7en, and Kaiser Soze, and the ephebophile in American Beauty, and Frank Underwood etc. etc. so convincingly. Still think his character doesn't matter and my hypothetical is pointless now?


Yes. Absolutely pointless. Kevin Spacey is a great actor who has taken some great roles, but nothing he has done has rocked the world. Hes not responsible for anything more important or pressing than mild entertainment. As such, this entire conversation is pointless.

Personally, I think it's a shame to ignore a lifetime of achievement because a person has done bad things. Assuming all is history and the good and bad are both in the past, neither can be wiped away. That's my point here, that it is what it is, no amount of bad behavior makes his performances in movies like American Beauty or Se7en any less outstanding, for what they are - said mild entertainment.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby UrGod » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:29 pm

Spacey is not a great actor, he is at best, average.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby Meno_ » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:56 pm

Any great actor should observe the cardinal rule of the craft-timing, and it is for that lack for which he is being chastized, and demoted.

I'm a primal level then , he failed. In this level, Booth may have been a car greater actor, as his timing was perfect. That they had no film at that time does.not diminish that.conclusion, if the argument were to hold.

John Gielgood ,Lawrence Olivier, Dame Judith Anderson,.Vittorio Gassman-.these were the great.actors
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Re: Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby Sauwelios » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:52 pm

UrGod wrote:Spacey is not a great actor, he is at best, average.


Maybe, but he's a great villain!

"Nietzsche is no existentialist, for he ridicules long before its promulgation the existentialist faith that we are free to create ourselves and the existentialist morals that condemn as bad faith identification with one's role. [...] Europe is becoming more 'artistic': we believe now that we are free to make ourselves whatever we fancy, that we are at our own disposal as artists whose own best work is ourselves. Nothing is given by nature that cannot be altered by art--this is the belief characteristic of the two transitionary ages Nietzsche cites, Periclean Athens and modern America, democratic periods of cocky faith that I can become anything I set my mind to, that I am not bound to some level in a pyramid as earlier, benighted ages believed. American faith is not an indigenous growth; it began as a European faith transferred to non-European proving grounds: Baconian faith in man's mastery over nature took practical shape in Locke's teaching that America is wild and uncultivated, a waste given to the industrious and rational to be subdued and improved and turned into property. Contemporary American faith applies the Baconian faith in mastery over nature to the frontier of one's own nature and in this form threatens to recolonize Europe. Nietzsche fears that the ancient Greek example, visible in all its consequences, foretells the modern future: this transitionary age may end as ancient Greece ended, with the 'actor' as the highest human form, with the Americanization of the globe.
[...]
The age of the actor poses a problem for the master-builder. Such builders--Plato, say, or Bacon or Descartes--have the perspective of millennia and aspire to create a new society; they are prudent legislators who found peoples. Any such aspiration today must face the fact that all people believe themselves capable of everything. Such a faith is the most unpromising for the builder whose projects require a very different fundamental belief: that worth derives from being a part of a whole, 'a stone in a great structure.' To become a stone, one has to become 'solid'; only on the basis of this kind of faith can a new society be built in the ancient sense of the term society. 'All of us are no longer material for a society: that is a truth whose time has come.'
Can material for a society be fashioned from modern humanity? Intimations of Nietzsche's affirmative answer can be heard as early as Human, All Too Human: the cocky faith of the age of the actor must be countered with 'true modesty': 'recognition that we are not our own work' (HH I.588). Philosophy's ignorance is consonant with the recognition that we owe our being to nature and history, that we are not our own work but belong, like stones, to a great structure of being and time. A new gratitude loyal to the earth can be built on this recognition." (Lampert, Nietzsche and Modern Times, pp. 353-54.)

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Re: Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:46 pm

As a side note, Mozart was pretty lewd, man. Just listen to his operas.
They should all be redacted. All offensive notes censored.

Oh what about the Bible? God, raping Mary in her sleep?
All you rapists who own a Bible!! Shame!!
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Re: Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:55 pm

UrGod wrote:Spacey is not a great actor, he is at best, average.


I have to admit he is not that great.
His most complete role by very far is American beauty. It now occurs to me that he may have been cast for that part precisely because of his sexual makeup.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's alleged history: worth it?

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:03 pm

Sauwelios, UrGod -
what do you thin about the whole issue that actors have throughout history been regarded as immoral, loose of standards, and have always been mistrusted with women and children?
This is overbearingly true in all cultures, except ours - somehow Hollywood has convinced us that actors are moral beings, examples role models.
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